What about the MALE victims?!?!?!

Doesn't mean I dont' care about a man who is killed by his wife or girlfriend.

But it's not an epidemic.

All domestic violence is wrong. However, woman are many times more likely to be a victim of it that a male.

I was just hoping that by posting the male victims card, it would prevent any subsequent postings by MRAs

It's amazing how difficult it is to speak of an epidemic of violence against women, when people basically justify it by saying that some women commit domestic violence to.

it's a strawman. and it's twisted, imho.

Saying that there are male victims of domestic violence, human trafficking, prostitution, sexual harassment, breast cancer, etc. serves to dismiss the idea that the female victims are deserving of any attention on their own.

It's no different than saying "lots of people lose their children" to dismiss the devastation that a newly mourning parent is experiencing.

I agree.

It's just that men have organized it...

Random thought, not related to domestic violence exactly. Thinking of war for some reason...

And this subthread is a discussion regarding how offensive it is to minimize the violence women face from their significant others on an epidemic level, because a small percentage of women kill their significant others.

There are reasons that most of the domestic violence cases are committed by men, which revolve around a hatred for women and women being considered property, otherwise known as misogyny.

The same argument cannot be made for men who are victims of domestic violence. If someone would like to start a thread in the feminist forum about the small percentage of men who are killed by domestic violence, I suppose that would be their perogative.

Wow, what a post.

I understand what you're saying. Just pointing out that there are lots of child victims, too.

if someone comes into this group and spouts this sort of stuff -what about male victims of domestic violence, etc- can't that poster be removed from the group? Isn't that what the hosts have the power to do in these groups now?

Worldwide domestic violence is far worse than in the US, but we have such a very long way to go and the perpetrator is rarely stopped effectively and the conditioning of the female to accept this sort of relationship- ie being controlled and punished if not submissive enough is such a large part of the story as well.

My goodness, we have a long way to go.

But here, can the hosts please just get rid of posters who come in and disrupt?

laconicsax was being sarcastic, obviously, but anyone coming in and attempting to shift the discussion to whataboutery will be reminded of the SOP and given a chance to bring their participation back in line accordingly. Failing to do so will result in being blocked from the group.

I agree, there is far too much domestic violence in our society, but to brand it "epidemic" is is bit hyperbolic, in my opinion.

I think the economic times have something to do with the rise in the number of cases. During the Great Depression domestic violence was more widespread than it is now. Of course in those days there wasn't the same level of attention paid to the problem, as women were considered mere chattel back then.

I'm not arguing that domestic violence is huge problem, I just take excpetion with using the word "epidemic" to describe it.

for a lot of women and children.

I'm an attorney who's representing a woman for free. We're trying to get her five children returned from Child Protection.

Long story short: Her abuser was the first man she seriously dated. She was pregnant with her first child when she discovered that he was still married. She was pregnant with her second child when he got the divorce. He refused to work. They continued to have children. She inherited $100,000 from her father and they spent it all in less than a decade and still were living in poverty as he wouldn't work, wouldn't apply for welfare or Social Security and he wouldn't let her and the kids leave their cabin. (He did steal money as Treasurer of his franchise of the Knights of Columbus.) He controlled her and the children from Day One. He hit and shoved her. He hit their kids when she was in another room. He was verbally abusive and threatened everyone.

The kids were taken away because my client called the police when he was choking the life out of her. Child Protection saw the filth in the house. They noted that the children had never been to school (the eldest being 9 years old). Never been vaccinated, been to the dentist, etc. They were removed and given to foster parents who then decided to adopt them.

My client was in denial and repeatedly told caseworkers that she wasn't a victim of domestic violence. She dropped the restraining order against her husband and asked the court to be allowed to live with him again. And for 18 months they lived like nomads in a variety of motels. She finally left him when he went after her with a baseball bat.

I'm asked why did she wait? Why didn't she leave sooner? The answer is simple: She had no money, no friends, and didn't want to tell her family about her life. In her mind, she had no options. To have a place to sleep at nights, to eat, to see her children, she had to stay with her husband (who also threatened her if she ever left him.)

It's been 18 months since she left him. She's living with her family in another state, in hiding. She's training for a good job while working for the first time in a decade, part-time, at McDonalds. She spends all her paycheck on a bus ticket to visit her children every other week for only two hours. (Bus trip is 9 hours each way.)

She's still seeing counselers and attending programs on domestic violence. She's suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. She finally filed for divorce.

And she's still not entirely free. Her husband still makes regular attempts to contact her. (I block him when we're in court together.) He went as far as to date a woman and lied to her to get her to drive him to where my client lives (in the other state). Our main concern is if the kids are returned, how will she be able to effectively protect them from their father? Restraining orders only go so far. And the Josh Powell story last week makes us shudder.

My client struggles daily to understand how she allowed her life to controlled by her husband and how she allowed him to terrorize her children. She feels guilty and knows that she was part of the problem. Even Child Protection treated her as a passive abuser instead of helping her seek assistance. She was just as much a victim as her children were and that fact was ignored. (Instead of programs for domestic abuse, she was sent to Marriage Counseling!)

Mothers who lose their children to adoption usually don't have the money to fight to get them back.

We have a long way to go before mental health is treated as a priority. Right now it's still stigmatized and largely misunderstood by those who have no experience with the more subtle disorders. I wonder what her childhood was like, or what else might have caused her to have so little self-esteem.

Went to college, worked, and had a future . . . . until she met her husband. Incrementally he dominated her in every way. She went along with it, first out of emotional codependency, and later, for survival.

I've been able to get to know her mother and stepfather and they are wonderful people. My client couldn't find the confidence to go to them and ask for help until it was almost too late.

I wouldn't know about USAmerican soaps, but the UK soaps I watch faithfully, Coronation Street and EastEnders, have been doing a decent job lately with storylines about the "incremental control" you refer to.

There have been several recently, how the men ingratiate themselves, are forgiven, increasingly acquire means of control, and ultimately exercise it violently. It's impossible to make it totally believable, as obviously the audience is supposed to see what's happening while the female character and sometimes family/friends don't, but it's done without making the women look stupid or blameworthy.

Little things like that, one can only hope they get through to young women especially and they'll maybe recognize the bad guy in the good guy they think they're seeing and not overlook the signs.

And if my client isn't challenged enough, she's in hiding from this man abot 10 hours away from where he lives and he continues a campaign to regain her. She's filed for divorce and he's stormed her attorney's office with phonecalls, asking to speak with her directly.

When the husband of a client of mine couldn't get her location (the court directed that I be served with anything that needed serving), he went out into the family court waiting room and bellowed at the top of his lungs that I had kidnapped his children, etc. etc.

That was a bad one. The two little kids were sexually abused, the woman was physically abused ... and I started having nightmares about him coming in my door and me going out the window. When he telephoned me at home, I called the police in the adjoining city where he lived. They said not to call my own police if he showed up at my door, to call them because they would get there in record time.

He was Ethiopian, had been residing in Germany, and was deported back to Germany. But not before attempting to molest a child in the airport washroom. At least deportation was available in that case!

Sadly, the woman had no support system in town (other than the women's shelter who had referred her to me). She was Iranian, but not Muslim. She tried really hard to integrate with her kids, but I think she ended up going back to Iran. She was a lovely person and I have always hoped she and the kids found safe harbour somewhere.


Oops, what I was meaning to say was: women's vulnerability, there are just so many sources of it. My client might not have been vulnerable to abuse had she had friends and family around her; immigrant women can be specially vulnerable because of that. But almost all of us have some vulnerability that can be exploited by someone determined to gain control.

when they're in court. (Because they're technically codefendants, he has the right to attend court together with her.) I block him, I try to be polite but not always. He hates my guts and that's fine with me. There are metal detectors at the entrance of the courthouse but I do worry about him getting something by one day, so I keep my client and me far, far away from him and keep an eye on his location at all times.

Understand, I'm not doubting your honesty, I'd just like to read the report it's from.

I'm sure google can provide any number of them.

Did you want to discuss the issue of intimate-partner violence against women?

on a search for

women killed intimate partners "united states"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence

I really was just interested in reading teh article. Thanks for linking it.

in that copy/paste of the wiki article, unfortunately. (I thought they'd get converted to pointy ones.) One was to this CDC study:

http://www.cdc.gov/violencePrevention/intimatepartnerviolence/consequences.html

It points out that (as is also true, for instance, in the case of firearms violence), deaths are not the only consequence; serious physical, psychological, social and behavioural effects also result from intimate-partner violence.

Man's Laughter

That's what the female detective sergeant in the Brit series Inside the Line wrote on the blackboard, when it became clear the team was going to be unable to prove the premeditated murder by a high-ranking police official of his wife, and he would be charged with only manslaughter.

It is exceptionally hard to find an "abusers anonymous" type of group.

Or any other kind of constructive help until the abuser is in jail (which as many others have pointed out is no help at all).

It's a crime they are committing. They are not victims.

There is NO excuse to use a woman as a punching bag.

Society is sick, I will agree, but many men like to find a way to minimize this issue, for some reason or another. Making it very difficult to educate the populace.

Word for word.

"There's no support groups for bank robbers either."

If you look at my signature, you'll see I don't advocate violence.
If someone is frustrated enough to think that violence is the only method left to get the point across that things are not working, they might want to look for other answers. Finding those other answers is tough is all I'm saying.

I entirely agree that educating all young people that violence is a poor choice would be a fantastic thing.

The US is actually quite advanced compared to some other cultures, such as the Philippines, where you can watch people on their soaps getting bashed daily with no consequences. And the US is nowhere near advanced enough.

Or were you thinking of something more specific? More tailored to people who abuse loved ones?

placed on them. And then they go and kill their intimate other and sometimes the children too.

Something is really wrong with how these types of crimes are handled in the USA.

Let them of for the weekend, because it is hard work, but I would think a mix of one-on-one counseling sessions along with some group therapy sessions would do the most good.

I understand that many abusers come from a childhood in which they saw the same kinds of abuse in their home growing up, those who don't realize they have a problem need to be helped to see that, so that they can change. Those who know they have a problem might need court-enforced reminding as well, sadly.

It's a huge issue but less talked about because the damage isn't outward, we don't necessarily always see the effects of verbal abuse.

in its own way. Thank you for posting this!

Too many women put up with verbal abuse because "he doesn't hit me" and they start to believe they deserve the abuse. Or worse, when they do protest, they're accused of "overreacting" or "not being able to take a joke". Is it any wonder they start to doubt themselves? Often, they come from verbally abusive homes, so they don't even realize that it's not the norm and continue the cycle. I think that's the saddest part of all.

the hits are different but sting just the same.

would be a big reason why many women object to the use of words like "bitch" against women, any women, at places like DU -- some women have experienced that verbal abuse (often simultaneously with physical abuse) and feel the impact of the words personally, and many other women simply empathize with women who have been victims, as well as recognizing the power of words to shape attitudes in society.

My dad never touched my mum, but he'd yell abuse at her and intimidate her constantly. It affected her, and it also affected us kids, especially me when I got older and told her she should leave him and she told me she put up with it because she felt she needed to stay so we had both parents together. I don't know what happened, maybe old age took the nasty out of him, but my dad stopped the verbal abuse years ago, but I still feel angry at him for the way he treated mum...

Though he's mellowed a bit in his old age, he can still get nasty.

Opening the group page to see a large number of domestic violence posts would really send home the message that there really is an epidemic.

Threads that never die get ignored pretty quickly, especially when the new comments are (if you'll pardon the expression) more of the same.

I, for one, would like to see posts about this ongoing problem get more visibility. Would you consider doing these as OPs rather than comments?

I'll give it a whirl. If many object, I'll go back to doing it this way.

Thank you for the suggestion!

I do believe that we have a long way to go.

We have made some progress- I was hearing today on KQED (Forum) that Congressman Honda has reintroduced more legislation dealing with this issue.