" what is healthy and balanced, grounded, authentic for men, well only enhance a womans life. and the same works the other way."

Now I'm out of here.

I must have missed it.

in which seabeyond wrote:

"maybe you are not a woman, maybe you have not experienced the aggressive attack on females the last decade from all sides. only to see us continually taking steps backward on being treated as viable, useful, respected members of society. and yet still...we continue with our voice, fighting time and again. explaining our position and why it is so very important, not only to us, but for you, and for our children, both genders.

and when we do speak up, we are continually hit with insults, attacks on our sexuality, patronized, condescended to, and told we don't have a thick enough skin.

yet still, we continued a reasoned conversation, hoping there will be a point of understanding."

Of this post by seabeyond, Neoma wrote:

"This is the type of behavior I will not tolerate, from a co-host or from anyone else. Nobody should post that someone is or isn't a man, or is or isn't black, or is or isn't white, or is or isn't a woman, or anything like that without some sort of proof. It's offensive to say that your opinions are invalid because you aren't a woman. It's highly inappropriate, especially for a co-host."

I think this is the exchange seabeyond is referring to. If it is not, sea, feel free to correct me.

For the record, I see nothing in the post Neoma targeted that makes me believe seabeyond's post is anti-male, promotes anti-male sexism, or dismisses the male perspective on women's issues as "invalid."

I read it as a post in which seabeyond was simply stating she believed that perhaps a poster could not fully understand the war on women because that poster (rrneck) had not been experiencing it in the same way. Seabeyond's post was polite and well reasoned. It was a criticism of the war on women not any individual poster, male or female, or men or women generally. Also, seabeyond was not questioning whether or not the poster was male or female, asking for "proof" of anyone's identity, slamming LGBTIQ posters or doing anything else offensive related to sex, gender or orientation. Sea was acknowledging that she didn't know anything about that poster or whether or not that person could experience what it is like to be a victim of misogyny in the same way seabeyond could. This is a far cry from saying a man's opinions aren't valid because he isn't a woman.

I really am trying to move beyond these disputes, but I felt I needed to make this post because of all the accusations tossed around in the last week, Neoma's inaccurate characterization of this post by seabeyond was the most outrageous.

as saying that only women have "experienced the aggressive attack on females..."

The larger context is that if that were the only post here in which it was suggested that only women (and "regular" women, at that, not transgender women or butch lesbians, for example) have a right to post in this forum, we would not be having this conversation.

But if you are correct about the comment seabeyond is posting about, it seems to me that it ought to be acknowledged that there is a bit of hyperbole going on in both directions.

My summary - trying to be as neutral as I can be:

seabeyond made a relatively innocuous statement, and a valid observation by any feminist standards I am aware of. The standard feminist mantra used to be "the personal is political" - that is what that mantra means - our politics as feminists are informed by our experiences, and we experience life differently than we would if we were men.

To Neoma - Perhaps seabeyond's observation could be misinterpreted- but it is hyperbole to read the statement as denying that men's opinions are valid (or claming any knowledge of the speaker's gender).

To seabeyond - You are correct - what you said does not match Neoma's interpretation of it. BUT, it is also hyperbole to read her incorrect interpretation as saying you hate men.

redqueen has wisely asked everyone to stand down. I am only adding this because it seems to me that the hyperbole in this exchange is being described as one sided, and my observation is that it is mutual - and describing it as one sided only serves to keep the pot simmering.

Now I'll crawl back in my bunker.

agree with your post.

and NOT ONCE have I felt any hate towards men or boys from you




However I do wish you would use more Capital letters

seabeyond (68,914 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

15. We are all in this together.

we really are and the fool that think we are not. i hope to convey this in about every one of my posts. also

"thinking one must lose, so the other can gain."... this is one o my favorite angles of it all. men struggle to hold onto, women also

women could be mommy, nurse or secretary. Men were always right, you were always wrong. That's what formed a lot of what I am and who I am. No one speaks for me. We all speak for ourselves.

even when we disagree on issues. Seabeyond returns respect with respect.

I have been staying out of this fight because I am not sure what is best, but I do want to reinforce seabeyond's claim in this OP. She is not a man hater. We don't always agree, but she is awesome.

I would like to read said post myself before making any judgments, though I would say you're not a 'man hater'.

(Again, if this is not the accusation seabeyond is talking about here, sea should correct me.)

You can also read my post above for my take on the accusation Neoma made.

Also, while I don't want to encourage anyone to continue the flame wars, maybe those of you demanding proof of an established event should try to read through all the threads encompassing this crisis before you comment.

I realize they can take a long time to sort through (reading them all took me several hours.) Yet, reading them all for yourself will save you a lot of time, (that you won't have to waste asking other people to do your catch up work for you) and may even help you form your own opinions about what went down here.

I read that much earlier today and read it differently, but I see what you're saying.

Thanks

No one likes to see anyones feelings hurt. But continuing this fight is just not healthy for this group... At some point we need to let go of the anger and hostility. It's not helpful. Believe me...I can't imagine anyone here thinks you are a man hater.

I do understand that it's sad when things don't go the way you want them to but I really wish we could all stop picking at each other and discuss things that matter in the real world not some battle for territory. I am willing to try.

This will eventually work itself out without us eating our own.

PEACE!

In the Gender and Orientation forums?

I mean, what's next? People discussing homosexuality in the LGBT forum? How dare they. Next we'll have Jewish people discussing Judaism in the Jewish faith forum. They should be discussing Judaism through the lens of Christianity!

How dare people discuss feminism as women, LGBT people discuss homosexuality and trans matters without being disparaged. And those women-identified people, well, I might be a woman identified woman from birth, but so help me, if you are woman identified, well, I must inspect your privates before you post here because you might not be strongly identified enough!

and will continue this fight?

Peace, seabeyond. Just stop. There is no gain to this in-fighting.

She has not posted in it again.

I don't see any need to press her to stop, considering that she has not participated in this discussion since she posted the OP as a defense.

My bad then. In my time zone, it was after 9 AM and she is still not letting it go in the host forum either.

I will be more careful to check the times on the posts, then.

I can't see what goes on in the hosts forum, so I missed that part. No hard feelings, I hope.

I should be more careful to look at what I'm posting to (and will).

No hard feelings.

But judging from some of the things getting hurled from both Iverglas and Neoma, neither of them have any business being hosts until they get some sensitivity training.

That's just my opinion though, so feel free to shitcan it.

But I have once conversed with SeaBeyond and I've read her posts every day since I came to DU and I am thankful she is here. I can honestly say that reading her posts is helping to make me a better man.

I can't for the life of me figure out how I would get that impression of her if she hated men.

I don't see anyone else.

Sea, I wouldn't take the opinions of one person to heart. I'm a lesbian that has a loving partner and a family. If anyone has criticisms of that, well, I honestly don't care.

I guess that means I hate men, too.

I guess that means I hate everyone that isn't in the same family relationship as I am.

You know what? It looks like projection to me, because I am part of a larger community that doesn't discriminate against people over sexuality, religion, or race. It's just fact that we work together, learn together and live together.

Screw what other people think about you, always know someone out there loves you and that is worth more then gold or any wealth the material world can produce.



"It's just fact that we work together, learn together and live together."

That's the best part of knowing who you are, who loves you and who will still adore you if you come home looking like a pet lost for 3 days

Thanks for reminding me of that Rex