you are not interested in being a co-host?

where the host has decided to "take the bull by the horns and mold the group to your liking" (probably the worst advice I've seen the administrators make). Sounds like this hosting gig may have gone to your head.

I've got to go before the entire front page of the feminist group is full of pinned threads.

That took some time and thought to compose.

Well done, EarlG.

And as far as I'm concerned admin can turn off my account. I'm done with DU. What an awful way to run things.

will support you by signing on as co-host. Maybe now the users here can get back to discussing the topic at hand without having their motive questioned or character impugned.

100%.

Members should also try to put their best foot forward by focusing on all the current, serious women's issues, which you have been neglecting to post much about. The articles I find about these issues are generally in the Latest Breaking News, General Discussion, Video & Media, or Good Reads -- NOT the Feminists' Group. Do you realize you're missing a significant opportunity during a critical time for women?

yes. they were in four forums for ALL of us to talk about.

feminist forum discussed things that were not in four forums that ALL of us could talk about. so yea, a forum has been created that is just like Latest Breaking News, General Discussion, Video & Media, or Good Reads. job well done. you can take the safe haven out. there is no need. this forum is no longer a feminist forum just an extention of the rest of the board.

If I understand this the way you meant it, there are topics that aren't welcome discussion for everyone (not including disruptors) in the Feminists' Group? Why is that?

i know you are trying to wrap it up in a way to say... gotcha, but it ends up just being odd.

in the feminist forum we discuss on a greater level the effects on our societies and the entrenchment in our culture. it wasnt so much what you found on the other four forums.

is it conversation we were saying others were not welcome to participate in, if they were interested? no. that is not what i am saying.

And, frankly, your wording is completely foreign to me. I'm not understanding why you would interpret my question as a "gotcha".

I was wondering if feminism is separate from women's issues, if feminists have different concerns. That was why I asked the question.

Are feminists' issues separate from women's issues?

I am very proud of the way you handled the situation.

People saying they are leaving the group well thats their loss. People that were once afraid to post here will now be coming back. Under your leadership I suspect to see an increase in Group participation and that a good thing.

For someone that has endured so much and got so little in return.

There is much for me to learn from wiser members here.

Feminism is standing up for yourself, making decisions, and sticking to those decisions even when they are very unpopular.

You know, I think that this is going to become a very interesting group. I look forward to reading and posting here in the future. Thank you for volunteering to be the host.

Seriously. Women fought hard to gain the right to vote, and now all these people I've never seen in this group before have appeared applauding shutting down the election we were having...

She didn't volunteer to be the host. She sacked all the other hosts and took over. So much for democracy.....

As far as I can tell, Neoma - a newbie to this forum by her own description - was asked to be co-host and then host by the small group of posters who have run this group for a long time. Why they chose to place a newbie in that position is anybody's guess. But it's clear to me that Neoma was expected to do what she was told. Don't forget the menacing warning in the offsite forum - "Neoma, why do you think you can say things like that?"

Well, turns out that Neoma has a mind of her own, and not only did she choose to continue saying what she thought, she chose actions to match. Do I agree with all her actions? Heck, no. But I admire a woman who stands up and thinks and acts for herself even when an entire board is screaming at her for days. That takes a hell of a lot of courage.

I am a little disconcerted, to be honest, by this:

"This thread is a warning, please keep these discussions in H&M or in the pinned threads. Please calm down. The fact that you are still here is a miracle, and I'm surprised you haven't caught on to that."

I was very upset by the way you were treated. While I believe there was trouble coming from both sides, I believed your actions were those of defense, however much I disagreed with them. I still do. That said, I always tell my children the corny line "You catch more flies with sugar..." and it's true. To be honest, this paragraph by you makes me as fearful to be a part of the Feminist forum as I was before the dust up. I know you are upset, but please be the mature one and don't stoop to that level. I don't want to be a part of that either. I guess I don't have to be, but I was very hopeful when I made my earlier post...that this forum could be a welcoming arena to discuss the issues.

When I read through the post from EarlG to you, I was so excited...because I knew you were going to go with option 3...only you didn't. I think you would have been surprised at how much support (myself included) you would have had with that option and a vote.

I truly do wish you the best of luck with your forum. I guess I was hoping calm and cool would prevail and it would be truly "Our" forum, and not this one or that one's or this group's.


Take care,

Laura

She became lead host by being the next in line when Redqueen retired as host. Okay. Isn't that the procedure, according to the rules?

I think I understand how & why the animosity against Neoma began, but I'm going to keep that to myself. I will say that, under the nasty circumstances, I'm rooting for Neoma.

In keeping with that thought, I think it's good that two men -- I love it! -- are going to co-host. That's going to put a big dent on the pettiness & I think it's going to make this a better place.

Focus on the issues & good luck.

I think all this hard work will help other hosts going forward as well.

To be willing to take this job, which seems like a thankless one, especially in this forum. I hope those saying they will leave will reconsider, when things are less heated and perhaps in time come back to their forum, if they must go as part of a cooling off period. Give Neoma a chance, she seems to be trying the best she can and operating in good faith.

I have ended this day not being able to trust the intentions of anyone who wanted to host this forum.

The words of hers, to begin this post, show qualities that are very much in line with those who attempted to overthrow her. What happened to her, and how she was treated, was reprehensible. Both sides squandered trust. To respond, in kind, is just as low in some ways. I leave not in anger, or needing to cool off, but with the realization that not much has changed. It takes a level of maturity...and those words don't instill confidence in me that all are going to be welcome here. I hope I am wrong.

I agree that part you referenced in the OP was not said with the greatest of diplomacy, but in my view she is entitled to vent a bit, considering what she has been up against recently.

Lack of diplomacy is a big issue for me. I'm sorry. I can't help it. Someone needs to be the better person here. I was hopeful for a re-vote. A re-vote where, if given the chance, I would have gladly voted for Neoma. So, I guess in some ways it's good that this happened this way. I fear I would have been disappointed.

Take care quin. Good luck with your forum. I don't belong here.

Honestly, I am just putting my two coppers in and very likely will not be posting much here if at all, but all of Du became aware of this group because of all the hubbub that has been taking place surrounding it.

she allowed the DU members to go on for over 210 posts, many taking VERY personal shots at her - without interjecting an argument or even a defense. This post was in response to all of that.

How many of us could have done that? I know me well enough that if you tied my hand behind my back, I'd be pounding out posts with my damn elbows by post #20-ish or so.

(Noting, I have no idea what post #20 was, I just pulled that number out of my ass).

My post was sincere.

Okay, then lets pretend I said post #18.

(Noting I am still pulling numbers out of my ass and haven't checked that one either...)

wasn't me, it's quinnox.

Quite possibly in response to my post in this thread. I'm sorry, but what we have here is what appears to be an immature girl who shuts down those who disagree with her. That isn't the type of forum I wish to be involved in. There is a disconnect and an inability to reason, of which I was unaware, in this host.

This place is toxic and not worth my time OR money.

Screw this.

that the host locks this thread by morning.

Again, when I read EarlG's message I was so very hopeful that the trouble was over in this forum.

I've been up since 2:30 am but I just had to say...

She locked all the threads that could be fairly argued as off-topic or threads that could start/harbor flame-worthy posts (I don't recall yours exactly and yours may not even fall into this category--just saying). If you read anything I've posted on this subject, I'm like the fairness line monitor without the neon orange sash.

That said, I'm not much for stifling dissent unless it gets totally out of hand and some of the locked threads were out of hand and off-topic. But I agree with whichever poster talked about bees and honey.

It was not contentious (and was actually supportive of Neoma) and was only locked when I voice my disappointment in Neoma's opening words here, in this thread. I continue to support the idea of no hosts for the time being.

And thanks for agreeing with my bees and honey.

I was quoting you... back to you.

Goodnight, keep up the good fight and give it a few days before throwing in the towel. These changes have been very abrupt and maybe with a little time and easing of tensions, things may turn out all right. Just remember, "There ain't no sunshine when she's gone..." Have no idea what that means but remember it all the same. <-- Punchy, thy name is Justice.

nuff said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11393967

I could see the one I posted getting locked because of our back and forth, though I never felt it was entirely contentious. But you're right about redqueen's.

...which is not so.

Locking innocuous threads does not make one feel welcome. Not giving one the opportunity to delete the thread in order to help the host save face... exacerbates that.

As I said to the host via PM (in the interest of transparency and to explain-at least a little bit- my about face), her choices reminded me the tiniest bit of King Solomon's decision. Only we've ended up with half a baby.

Take care justice...but I still don't belong here. I will keep up the fight in GD and in Sports...

so I apologize in advance for that - as many were locked in the wake of this. I don't think it was personal, but more the direction the various threads were taking.

Can you repost it?

would appear more mature in her dealings. It appears to be in direct response to my post expressing disappointment in her choice of words to begin this post. It was fine, and left by the host until I posted something that was a little less than supportive. I am awaiting a response. It is still here, a couple of posts down.

are being locked and only those on Feminism topics (sans internal discussion) are being left.

I could be wrong, but that is the common thread I think I see.

It has not. Good luck with your forum. I truly do mean that.

Hell, I am still not convinced on Patriarchy as opposed to class warfare.

She may want to leave your comments as valid criticism but with a desire to shut down all inter-forum discussions for the time being. If those were directed at/about me, I wouldn't want to see them deleted, but I know I can be an odd egg, so take that into account.

It's time for me to go.

Take care, and I'll see ya around the Sports forum.

I was just reading a book that touches on it .... look for a post about it probably in Women's Rights. Very instructive.

Last edited Thu Feb 16, 2012, 11:07 PM - Edit history (1)

It looks like I will have to unsubscribe as well. I was subscribed for many years, and was so glad there was a safe space for feminists here.

One thing I would suggest, since you are taking the forum in a new direction, is that you change the SoP to reflect your new plan for it. Also, you may want to change the name from Feminists to Women's Issues to make it clear, because I think the current name may cause some confusion.

Good luck to you--wildflower

On edit: I thought about this and maybe this is a possible solution for everyone: rename this forum Feminism, to reflect that all are allowed to come and express their opinion about feminism. Then a new group, Feminists, can be started by feminists who want to talk with others who are like-minded.

Possibly ever. Great idea. Simply great.

As someone who hosts the H&M. I assume you would know better.

and second, all groups are open to all members here. Star memberships add things like expanded blacklists and the like, but in no way determine access and it is disingenuous for you to suggest otherwise.

Relax will you?

Excuse me for thinking you were a host in H&M. You post so much there I just assumed.

And really 42.00 bucks to only blacklist jurors is a rip... what about groups for non-payers?

Have had a cat sleeping soundly in my lap for several hours now in fact.

There is no such thing as "groups for payers/non-payers" any longer. With the move to DU3, all groups are open to ALL members, regardless of donation. Admin wanted to encourage the use of groups, so removed that limitation when they coded the software.

I used the blacklist as an example (5 members for non-star, 15 for star) as it was the only thing I could think of off the top of my head and to add, is a source of concern with all of the socks running herd. I am sure there are other benefits, but may change before I renew at the end of Novemberish, so haven't really kept track. Groups are definitely not one of the restrictions.

Log out and look for yourself.

I got brought out of out of not having read DU in some time to post here just to tell you how much I admire you for the way you've handled an impossible situation w/ grace and even-handedness. When I was an active poster I learned much about Feminism (because honestly, I didn't know as much as I though I did) by some great posters (many who are now posting in this group) who took the time to teach me without anger and condescension because I was a man, and I'll always thank them for that.

After reading the mammoth threads detailing what happened (and now the resolution), I'll be very eager to read the new threads and learn from a cross-section of thoughtful and intelligent posters. Because I'm still learning, always learning.

Because of time constraints I'll mostly lurking, but if I know that if I were to contribute my words to the group, that I would be welcomed, not scorned. Best of luck to you, and thanks.

Perhaps English is not your primary language, but please.... To all who have been concerned (NOT, To all who has been concerned).

Thank you.

There was no need for this post. Things had calmed down. Red Queen made a gracious post. Now you come back in here strutting your stuff. Stirring things up again. Bringing up old posts. Threatening people about crossing you. Bragging about your support from the admins. Causing women to consider leaving DU. And still being too arrogant to feel you need to respond to your pinned missives. Stating that you and only you will choose your co-hosts when you get around to it.

Not an impressive start.

some were saying they doubted she had the backing of the admins for her actions. I suggested in an earlier OP that she provide proof of that support.

Just throwing that out there (don't know if that IS why she posted it but if she's being taken to task for taking my advice, I feel some of that should fall on me).

Does she even read this forum? Seems more like revenge than leadership.

Edit: And she locked Redqueen's post that was graciously asking for harmony before she left the building. Yep, revenge.

at vendetta. As well as trying to avoid dealing with any criticism of or consequences for her behavior. There is no attempt at leadership, problem solving or attempt to focus on feminism here. Only (more) abuse. Sad.

Things aren't going to settle down, unless anyone's of the belief that unilaterally locking any thread that has the slightest whiff of criticism of the actions of this host is settling things down. My deep disgust with the disrespect for a democratic process that was in motion, and the locking of the most benign threads won't just settle down.

I'd suggest a vote on what to label each daily pinned directive, but voting is frowned upon here. So I'm going to unilaterally label today's Directive To The Minions 2012/3 unless someone can come up with something more catchy!

You banned someone because of something that happened on another forum
and now a lot of people here are not happy about that ban??

So then you eliminate all other hosts and lock all the threads you don't like??

But as far as why I got upset and banned her immediately after this, is because I didn't like that she made the other forum to talk behind the Forum & Group Hosts back because there were LGBT hosts there. Apparently instead of wanting to sort things out with me, she wanted to ban members she was upset with in the flame-war.

I was upset over her for than one reason in this instance.

sorry to butt in but I have this strange need for fairness and truth. you wrote

As it was in PMs.

However, I should not have to defend myself for removing and banning a co-host in the first place, even if the flame-war didn't happen. It is perfectly within my right and by the rules. If you do not like the rules, talk to an administrator.

I didn't ask about your exercise of powers, or the rules - I just hadn't come across any evidence that you actually felt uncomfortable with the process at the time, since you used the argument several times as one of the reasons for your actions.

As to my question about motives of a blocked/terminated member, that just seemed unfair to make what looks like an unfounded and speculative statement about them when they don't really have the chance to reply or refute.

Although obviously they could do so in meta like another member has done tonight over what he felt were unjustified allegations.

thanks for your time and good luck. I need to get some sleep.

This shit has really gone to your head.

Hold a vote for the group to decide and only run those who have not been hosts here before. Including you Neoma. You and any others who have been involved in this should be members but not host. Throw out a diplomatic solution and start by letting everyone know that you will be stepping down.

But she has male bodyguards now to protect her and this forum! Series...I could not make this shit up even if I tried.

I can't support this direction, but I wish you well and hope this choice works out for you and for DU.

All these newly locked threads are a wee bit too control-freaky for me to feel confortable here.

I don't know you well enough to harbor bad feelings toward you personally, but this group management style is just not going to work for me.

Peace.

I wish I knew what was going on here. Not sure I would want to join a forum that was fighting like this.

Why am I not surprised?

Almost everything you know about the situation is because Neoma has been open about what she did, why she did it and why she felt the situation was serious enough to do it.

She did a TON of homework, she explored her options, she clearly went to DU Admins hoping they would deal with the situation and an Admin told her that ultimately, that her position meant that it was ultimately up to *her* to address the situation.

And Neoma is not your servant. You can't just pepper her with hundreds of posts and accusation and expect her to drop everything, especially her work trying to keep the peace here and end the outrageous behavior that preceded her actions.

You treat her like she works ONLY for you and ONLY for what you want --a surprisingly consistent, repetitive and strident complaint from a handful of posters.

of HER OWN MAKING.

so get off your damn high horse.

Neoma is not the only host who shared information ... and she IS the only host who took what should have been private discussions between all the hosts of this group, and consulted with the very people who were causing the problems in the first place.

She did nothing for "us" and most of what she did was to cover her own guilty ass. Let's see how long she leaves my post up.

at some point responding to the lies of you and others becomes counterproductive for me.

look around. she has explained herself well, she has been thorough, she has been open. and more people have shown there support here than for any other issue in this group before.

that speaks pretty well for itself. you are a horrible advocate for your position. so i think there's no need or point in responding to your noise.

"so i think there's no need or point in responding to your noise"

yet you did respond

and what pray tell is my position?

i am a horrible advocate for my position!

works for me

and i notice still no proof of lies.....

You've totally ignored it all, and now I find that after asking you to go to the Hosts group and talk with what were the other hosts before you went and sacked them with no warning and no respect for what the members of this group thought, yr screen-shotting not only OPs from the Hosts forum that YOU should have gotten involved in, but yr doing the same with PMs. Did EarlG give you permission to post his PM? If he had, you should have said so. And if he didn't, it just confirms what I've heard that you've shared PMs of members from this group with non-hosts...

As someone who actually participated here discussing feminism until you did what you did, I'm expecting an answer to the questions I've asked you. I'm not sure what the deal is with the secrecy of having to PM you to get answers, because the questions I asked involve the hosting of this group and there should be transparency, not this shit where any questions or dissent are locked or threatened with blocking...

From the OP:
"EarlG has responded to me that his PM to me was not confidential."

&quot Something I really couldn't do this week. I lost 11 pounds.)"

'A person has to sleep, and eat, and use the bathroom...(Something I really couldn't do this week. I lost 11 pounds.)'

Amazingly, as a host of what's possibly the busiest and most flame-prone forum at DU, I manage to fulfil my hosting duties without posting missives on how much of a chore it is. I wish being a host was a way of losing weight, though

we shouldn't judge anyone or put them down because they've lost weight due to added stress from here.

If a self-appointed solo host has so many real life issues that they intrude on their ability to host, they should step down.

host resigned, and it was agreed to. The link to that discussion has been posted numerous times. I didn't say she has 'so many real life issues that they intrude on their ability to host', I said no-one knows what would cause anyone to lose 11 lbs, something you seem to have latched onto, for some reason.

She is self-appointed. I had no idea who she was when I voted, and if I'd known she'd sack all the other hosts I'd voted for the way she has I would have strongly objected to it.

Y'know, if someone is going on about taking hours to write emails and losing weight due to being a host, it is affecting their ability to host. And if they didn't lose weight because of the hosting, not sure why she'd bother mentioning it...

Talk to ya later. I'm off to weigh myself so I can post in the Australia group all about how I have to find time to eat and sleep and stuff and that I've lost one whole kilo in a week!

Take a look at my post below yours. I've stayed out of this until this latest post of Neoma's. I'm appalled. As I said in my post, this belies the DEMOCRATIC part of DU!

and Neoma, IMO, took the more drastic one. She took the one that made the feminist group all about HER, rather than about a DEMOCRATIC version of what the majority want.

The options were walk away "leaving the group with no hosts," which in itself is totally inaccurate. There were other hosts, she just unilaterally stripped them of their hosting privileges. HOLD AN ELECTION FOR HOSTS. Or do what she did, which ended up making the feminists group NEOMA'S GROUP.

Is this REALLY the approach progressives are supporting? REALLY? They're not supporting HOLDING A VOTE? Wow, if I ever saw a Republican approach (akin to a Scott Walker ilk), this is it! WOW!

I'm sorry to jump in here. I've been reading all along and trying to stay out of it, leaving the discussion to the group regulars. But this last post of Neoma's just finished me -- I had to say something.

Please understand, I don't think that Neoma is THE wrong one here. I think there's fault on all sides. But Neoma isn't blameless and frankly, I'm saddened by the approach she decided to take and which DU is willing to accept. This certainly in my mind belies the DEMOCRATIC part of DU.

I'll leave off with quoting my email response to a feminist group member who was kind enough to email me when I indicated in H&M that I didn't want anything to do with the feminist group as it is today. This member felt things would improve now that Neoma had taken charge -- I disagreed.

A coalition. Of Neoma, and an arch nemesis. Co lead hosts. Sure it would be contentious. But that is what many govs do when there is a real split.

Allowing an arch nemesis in would show egalitarian leaning. I think it would show the kind of burying the hatchet, that would energized this group. And give a wider array of choices for direction.

The forgiveness this would illustrate would go far in bringing all on board.

This would prolly work best, if the co lead hosts agreed to hold elections, if one quit.

It might go a lot smoother than anyone could imagine.

Earl G didnt mention it as one of the options.

I expect to be beaten and stomped for that.

Neoma maintains her #1 host status, she'll keep running around locking threads she doesn't like, as she's done with all of the other hosts. And maybe repeating the same pattern over and over.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Hmmmmmm.....I certainly see where it would likely go.......again.

As long as DU is set up so Neoma can maintain dictator status, this won't work.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know anyone involved. Frankly, I have no idea what's happened.

But that sentence should disqualify you as a host. This isn't Free Republic, where only those that toe the official line may speak.

nt.

after everything that's happened? That's what first occurred to me while reading it. With all due respect, has anyone asked her what she meant?

As for "what she meant", well she's had lots and lots and lots and lots of threads available to explain how she didn't mean a the authoritarian things she's been saying.

I keep thinking that this shit couldn't be happening at DU. Boggles the mind.

The constant drama about it is getting annoying.

They dont feel safe. They dont feel honored generally on DU. I sympathize.

WEre I a women, I too might be thrashing and flailing. Angry and hostile.

Hell, I am disabled, but not compensated by the insurance I paid for. And I am EFFING angry.

Add to this a new form of governance, and there is bound to be insecurity. People are not robots.

From Earlg "Currently the system is indeed working as WE intended it to." And I know that admin believes in our new system otherwise they would not have brought it online.

Earlg,Skinner and Elad OWN this site. It's their living room. Although I have heartburn with some of DU3 it really doesn't matter what I think. So all of the wailing and gnashing from both sides of this seems a colossal waste of time. It's done.

There are many many times over the years working on DU as a poster and as a mod that admins decisions sent me into a tailspin and frankly drove me nuts.. But ultimately I had to abide by them. Or leave. Ultimately that was my choice. Because again, this ISN'T my site.

That said, this has been great reading.

Here, it is barely a month old. In the final analysis, people will be stronger for it. Politics is war by other means. Same here.

Democratic governance of internet forums, is a new concept. I think it is very ahead of its time.

Even among Dems, most persons prefer the simplicity of being told what goes. Evolutionary bagggage I presume.

Even though you quoted icky Donnie. And believe me I have come to this party with reservations.

Because if this is what the Admins actually want for DU, hen I want nothing to do with it. But I'm honestly clinging to the hope that it's really the fact that they devoted months to hard work that's keeping them from scrapping it. Because I would hope that this mess is not really their desired outcome. I think they actually didn't expect any of this. I've been with DU since 2001 and also modded a few terms. I cannot believe that a trashed Feminism forum, with many of the regulars who have been with it since the beginning hurt and leaving, and many on DU laughing and pointing and mocking the Feminism forum, is really the system working as they intended.

If this is admin's impression of "working," then I can not believe the future will be "pretty"... sigh...

Never would have predicted in Jaunary, 2001-- when I was first introduced to DU--that I would be feeling so disillusioned 11 years later...

This is ridiculous - there should have been another election

This issue will never be resolved now that you are seen as power grabbing. Even your supporters seem to find it disturbing.

Boston bean had started option 3 a couple days before this latest shit-storm started by starting an election for new hosts. Neoma locked that thread immediately after firing all of the group's co-hosts.

And people wonder why she's been accused of seizing power.

Unsubscribing.

Peace out.

"This thread is a warning".

No this thread is the demise of this group. End of.

Will we be having elections anytime soon? Are you running? If not, why not?

Funny how some see asking for a democratic solution as "bullying".

FFS.