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laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 12:11 AM Mar 2012

A proposal.

(Cross posted in F&D and Women's Rights)

We need to band together and convince the Admins to regard sexism and misogyny as just as unacceptable as racism and homophobia. It's fantastic that the LGBT group has made the progress they have towards convincing TPTB that homophobic comments are vile and should be a bannable offense and I sincerely believe if the feminists of DU, united, make it clear that sexist language, slurs, etc. should be unacceptable, we can achieve a similar level of success.

Right now, the discussion is, as it's been for years, about whether asinine rationalizations make misogyny ok and whether dislike of misogyny is the result of being a frail old woman who's shocked by dirty language. It's clear that the discussion isn't going to change before that happens--if it were, it would have already. Once some people start getting TOS'd for using terms for female genitalia as insults or making allusions to the idea that not having male genitalia makes a person defective, the discussion will finally change to why that kind of language shouldn't be acceptable.

The problem of sexism on DU is real and needs to end. Let's make it a goal to put an end to it.

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A proposal. (Original Post) laconicsax Mar 2012 OP
It's already in TOS. Neoma Mar 2012 #1
Can you name a jury results post that didn't go down the path I described? laconicsax Mar 2012 #2
Well, this is how it works. Neoma Mar 2012 #3
What I suggested in one of the mirror threads for this was a way to work with the system. laconicsax Mar 2012 #4
Shoot for it. Neoma Mar 2012 #5
just for the record, MIRT only gets the alert if the post was hidden maddezmom Mar 2012 #6
I thought it was one or the other. laconicsax Mar 2012 #7
as far as I know they get both. MIRT can only deal with newbs so even if a post was hidden maddezmom Mar 2012 #8
Correct, admins see the TOS alert either way. gkhouston Mar 2012 #11
In addition to alerting The empressof all Mar 2012 #9
Question: How would you define "Serial Misogynist"? Taverner Mar 2012 #16
I've started a few threads in H&M discussing this issue and it exists across minority groups stevenleser Mar 2012 #10
If that's how it came across, I apologize. It was not my intent. laconicsax Mar 2012 #12
No worries, they have had some success, but there are regularly examples of how much more work needs stevenleser Mar 2012 #13
That there are. laconicsax Mar 2012 #14
Question: How much will be context vs words? Taverner Mar 2012 #15
Could you give an example? laconicsax Mar 2012 #17
Post removed Post removed Mar 2012 #18
That you see that as an example implies that you don't understand the issue. laconicsax Mar 2012 #19
I don't think you get it maddezmom Mar 2012 #20
The misogyny is bad on DU. Jamastiene Mar 2012 #21
Yep. Ms. Toad Mar 2012 #22
I agree with you that misogyny and sexism are vile and unacceptable, HOWEVER... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2012 #23
I don't think those are mutually exclusive. laconicsax Mar 2012 #24

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
1. It's already in TOS.
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 12:25 AM
Mar 2012

No bigoted hate speech against gender is in there. What you'd need is to speak out more toward the juries about it.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
2. Can you name a jury results post that didn't go down the path I described?
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 01:33 AM
Mar 2012

Hell, there are a one or two active ones in H&M right now.

Here's how those posts have consistently gone since DU3 went live:

OP: I can't believe the jury didn't vote to hide this outrageously sexist language
Form responses: "The Brits use it," "I use it," "The person who used it is no misogynist," "They were using this term for female genitalia to insult a man, so the intent was not to be misogynistic," "I can't stand the PC police," "It's just a word."

The discussion then becomes about those red herrings and rationalizations, the two sides dig in, and nothing changes. This isn't a difference of opinion (as some jurors would put it), it's the difference between respecting women and knocking them over then kicking them when they're down.

The main reason why nothing has changed is because of the deeply ingrained sexism in society. Misogynists are bigots and for the most part, bigots don't change until they're forced to do so. The admins started forcing that change with respect to homophobia, they can do the same with respect to misogyny.

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
3. Well, this is how it works.
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 02:58 PM
Mar 2012

Although the jury system doesn't work 100% of the time, it does grasp onto the few that says these types of things eventually.

The MIRT keeps track of the offenders who are new to the website. Spammers, obvious freepers, obvious trolls, obvious socks, etc. They go in their hidden little forum and talk things out and I'm sure a lot of them pays attention to H&M.

The jury system bumps up the long-term members who have an obvious pattern to their behavior. So, it's a lot easier to find these people who muck up the system for the admins.

Jury decisions are also moderated by the admins, from what I understand...

So basically, you're never going to get justice to your alert 100% of the time. And when you alert something, explain exactly how it's against the TOS in the explanation box. A lot of people are still not used to DU3.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
4. What I suggested in one of the mirror threads for this was a way to work with the system.
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 03:19 PM
Mar 2012

It's in the copy of this thread in Women's Rights if you want to read it exactly, but basically I strongly believe if we make it a point to always alert, always check the TOS box, and always confront the poster, we can raise awareness of the problem and effect positive change.

-By always alerting, the problem gets more visible and discussed more (though those discussions are rarely productive).
-By always checking the TOS box, the alert always goes to MIRT or admins and they become more aware of the problem.
-By always confronting the poster, we can educate and change minds.

If we don't alert, the problem can slip under the radar, and if we don't confront, those who are using sexist language out of ignorance or habit rather than malice will start to get resentful of 'censorship.'

We'll ruffle feathers, but that's always how it goes when fighting for social justice

maddezmom

(135,060 posts)
6. just for the record, MIRT only gets the alert if the post was hidden
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 03:33 PM
Mar 2012

if it stays it only goes to admin. Admin get TOS violation whether or not the post is hidden.

maddezmom

(135,060 posts)
8. as far as I know they get both. MIRT can only deal with newbs so even if a post was hidden
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 03:58 PM
Mar 2012

and it was a long termer the MIRT hands are tied. That is why they get all TOS alerts.

gkhouston

(21,642 posts)
11. Correct, admins see the TOS alert either way.
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 06:48 PM
Mar 2012

And I have served on a couple of juries where misogynistic posts were hidden, but there are too damned many 3-3 verdicts out there. Sometimes I think there must be a handful of jurors who will "leave" anything, just to be contrary.

The empressof all

(29,100 posts)
9. In addition to alerting
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 05:47 PM
Mar 2012

We need to begin to request that admins take action against the serial misogynist. It's all well and good to alert and confront their bigotry in the thread but we need to also hold the PTB accountable to this as well.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
16. Question: How would you define "Serial Misogynist"?
Wed Mar 7, 2012, 03:04 PM
Mar 2012

That definition is not as clear cut as you might think.....

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
10. I've started a few threads in H&M discussing this issue and it exists across minority groups
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 05:52 PM
Mar 2012

You mention LGBT as if they have been completely successful in erradicating terms being written that are offensive towards them. I wish it were true but they have not. It still goes on. Same with terms about every minority group. We have an ongoing fight against those who believe they should be able to write anything they want regardless of how offensive it is. Here is my latest OP on the subject titled "We should accept when those from a discriminated against minority say that something is offensive.
" - http://www.democraticunderground.com/124053747

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
12. If that's how it came across, I apologize. It was not my intent.
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 08:21 PM
Mar 2012

I meant to use LGBT as an example of a group that has had some success.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
13. No worries, they have had some success, but there are regularly examples of how much more work needs
Tue Mar 6, 2012, 11:26 PM
Mar 2012

to be done. Sad really.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
15. Question: How much will be context vs words?
Wed Mar 7, 2012, 03:03 PM
Mar 2012

Since I think hiding "bad words" is a patently bad idea

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
17. Could you give an example?
Wed Mar 7, 2012, 03:08 PM
Mar 2012

Maybe an example of where the context makes the use as an insult of a term for female genitalia not sexist?

Response to laconicsax (Reply #17)

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
19. That you see that as an example implies that you don't understand the issue.
Wed Mar 7, 2012, 03:24 PM
Mar 2012

Here's a little thought experiment:

Replace the C-word with the N-word in that comic. Would you still regard the context as overriding the history of the N-word?

Before you start on with "that's completely different!" Keep in mind that the C-word has been used as a slur to oppress women for longer than the N-word has existed.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
21. The misogyny is bad on DU.
Wed Mar 7, 2012, 06:11 PM
Mar 2012

A big problem I am noticing in regards to misogyny is that many jurists do not seem to realize what is and what is not misogynist. It happens a lot with homophobia and transphobia too.

Ms. Toad

(35,384 posts)
22. Yep.
Thu Mar 8, 2012, 01:15 AM
Mar 2012

Probably worse with mysogyny, at the moment, because at least there was a period of pretty diligent post-hiding to prime the well for good recognition of homophobia and transphobia.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
23. I agree with you that misogyny and sexism are vile and unacceptable, HOWEVER...
Sun Mar 11, 2012, 11:10 AM
Mar 2012

Would it be a bad idea to be allowed to take posts which are misogynist and sexist, and dissect them for the purpose of teaching?

Is it better to TOS, or better to dissect and show the reasons why the posts are misogynist and sexist, so people become aware, rather than just throw them out without explanations?

I'm just asking.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
24. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.
Mon Mar 12, 2012, 07:48 PM
Mar 2012

That's why I think it's important to confront (for lack of a better word) those making the posts. It can be very useful to inform someone that what they've posted is sexist and ask them to edit or delete and there's no reason why that can't be done before alerting.

I suspect that a jury called to judge a sexist post will be more likely to vote to hide it if the poster was confronted about it and refused to edit.

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