Sunshine disinfects.

I don't like infighting and celebrating something that Paul Elam of A Voice For Men is also celebrating.

RadFems have done a lot to further the goals of feminism and they're entitled to believe what the want about the XX chromosome. They are not the problem. They aren't always right, but they are necessary. Stop expecting everyone to be as educated and enlightened without flaws, because nobody is. All women deserve a safe space to define as they see fit. Cis women, WOC, trans women. We all have different goals and histories of oppression, and there is no hierarchy in the feminist groups. This will never resolve itself, and truthfully, I've read enough trans women who agree the pile-on to radfems is counter-productive and destroying a good ally against patriarchy.

Most radfems aren't transphobes. My local chapter focuses on socialism and intersectionality. But lesbians and anybody else have the right to say they prefer whomever as a sexual partner without it being labeled phobia. I can't stand this hateful infighting. Radfems aren't all the same. Some of them do hold fucked up beliefs. Trans women do as well. I am aghast at the highly offensive, vaguely rapey-connotations spouted as "cotton ceiling" baloney. That's a debacle and a half, but I am not expecting trans women and myself to part ways as feminists because we can't seem to agree with every single thing the other believes. Even though nobody has apologized for the cotton ceiling offense.

I will not dismiss radfems or trans people's right to identify their gender how they see fit, because I don't really have a problem seeing where all sides are coming from. I don't appreciate the insults from either side, but shutting down any feminist conference is just Orewellian and unproductive. I would expect that all women have the right to identify their place on the wheel of intersectionality, and define a safe space around it as they see fit. Feminists are allies of trans people, but not all cis women and trans women share the same dynamics within the patriarchy. Equality isn't about making sure no one gets their feelings hurt.

When RadFems are eliminated in a fiery rage of fourth-wave self-centeredness, I hope we can all realize that driving them away didn't do a thing to help fight against the real enemy, patriarchy, or help with securing solutions to our problems in that area, since apathy toward feminism is becoming so demoralizingly thick you need a breadknife to spread it.

Finally, I hope they can find another venue to meet, free of the pile-on. They're fringe, they're not the enemy, and most of all WOMEN DO NOT DESERVE TO BE SILENCED, PEOPLE. Why are we, as feminists, so butthurt about RadFems that we're doing the MRAsses dirty work FOR them?

Last edited Sat Jun 2, 2012, 02:59 PM - Edit history (1)

ok , this is my first message on these boards and im seeing polar aspects of feminisim , but im going to start this off simply .

Im Scott, im 33 years of age and grew up in a single parent household with my radfem mother and sister , and im an MRA .

Im not going to post my whole story here, ill simply link to it , something that will hopefully get people thinking, but i dont hate women , i dont even hate my mother or sister, even after the sexual and physical abuse i took growing up , radfems to me because of my experiences is feminisim , i dont normally buy into the NAFALT argument put forward ( not all feminists are like that) and instead i see people trying to justify radfems feelings and attitudes, even ones who are part of the radfem hub like these who have talked about killing children through exposure, throwing little rapists out of windows etc , there crime was simply beng male and what made it so scary was when these people were investigated the ones saying this turned out to be teachers !!

Im an MRA because of feminisim , but today i find myself looking at the woman who posted this thread and congratulating her because something rare has happened , both sides of this have seen something wrong and the good people have spoken up , they havent defended a sisterhood, or a brotherhood they have seen bigotry aimed at the trans community , and some of these people have gone through much more pain and suffering than many of the left wing , university educated man haters who have wanted to put this conference on ( and in that i do include kitten pinder from big brother who is a poster ) .

No one, male or female deserve to be unheard and the feminists you are claiming are butthurt are actually angry that an ideology that they belive in has more publicity for anti trans attitudes ( which ties into the anti male attitudes ) , and its not the first time, its julie bindel part two.

I found it interesting you said they werent the enemy , during the time between ww1 and ww2 the national socialist party rebuilt germany , fed people, got everyone working together and they did a great job, but they also had a radical side who let things get out of hand, same with any country that has used marxist ideologies ( erin pizzeys prone to violence talks about this ) and this is why the feminists are getting butthurt because they arent wanting the loony fringe to cause more damage, its saddening to see people so intent on keeping the gender war going when the unified voices on this topic is such a massive step towards true egalitarianism.

As I said earlier, radical feminism made me an MRA , but after many years and lots of prescribed happy pills I understand my mothers reason for hating me in the way she still does but I will never let myself do the same, this is a start for us to move forward , for feminism and the mens movement to do something worthwhile in union.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/on-becoming-a-good-man/

Last edited Sun Jun 3, 2012, 11:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Welcome to the Feminist forum.

The majority of Feminists do not subscribe to those extreme and hateful views. This is why you hear frenzied cries of "the new wave isn't listening to us!", "the new wave is just *funbots* and *fucktoilets* (excuse my language but that term even made it here, and not to be petty). Check out the recommendations on this article calling the more inclusive Feminists, the MAJORITY "feminist-lite" "over-privileged, self-serving faux feminists".

There were 2 recommendations to that little hate screed and the poster you replied to was one of them. I'm not sure why she recommended it but I'm wary, even though we seem to line up when it comes to social justice issues.

I'm sorry your mom hurt you. I often worry about the sons of some of the RadFems here and the psychological scarring they're going to have from having mothers who *hate* them for having a penis and being part of the *patriarchy*. Nevermind that those women are part of the *global patriarchy* that exploits other women and turns a blind eye to it.

I just looked at your blog. It's beautifully written and my Feminist heart aches for you.

I wrote it because to me its evidence of a balance , as i said im an MRA but aside from the fact I was made to feel part of something that accepted me without judgement I have gone there because its where my voice can do good, feminism was a fantastic concept , from sufferage onwards but round about the 70s there were things that happened, be it the attacks on Erin Pizzey for what she has done and the fact she saw DV as a genderless crime through to harriet harmans comments in goverment , I see the whole thing as a pendulum, only an ostrich would say that feminisim has the same social relevance it did as there has been a backlash over many things , but one of the things that myself, and a lot of the men i am close to worry about is that the pendulum shifts too far again in the other direction, I wouldnt wish a girl to go through any of the things I, or others have because of gender, or for that to be diminished because " it happens to more men so that is more important" , Feminisim has it in them to pull back from the brink , but it takes things like this, it takes feminists coming out and challenging those within there ranks that are hateful, man hating has somehow become socially acceptable but its little things like this ( and you have no idea how many props you have been given on many different sites from even the most harsh MRA for the fact that you nailed your colours to the mast to defend transwomen , and that is something massive for that group to see and publicly state that there is some good in feminists ) .

Apoligies for the rant there but im not always the best at writing

But I'm outraged that a very small subset of disturbed women was allowed to get away with so much hate while using *sisterhood* to quell disagreement with their sick views about sex and men.

Feminism is on no brink, except in the twisted minds of fringe sex-hating penis-phobic whatevers.

Transwomen are our sisters. Men are our husbands, sons, fathers, partners and fellow human beings. Some men suck, most don't. Most men were never involved in oppressing women, it was the system that both women and women support for their own pocketbook that does.

Keep ranting. Despite all the haters, we'll get to equality yet.

MRA stances actually fight against everything women have fought for for decades upon decades. I honestly do find it a bit worrying that you signed up of DU just to come into the FG and declare, several times, you are MRA, and are MRA because of feminism.

yes I am a MRA and I am because of a strain of feminism that is full of hate , i can tell you how painful it is to be hit in the face with the scum manifesto , but as i said , doesnt mean I hate women and if you check back the splc have not listed the groups as hate groups, they blogged on the mra , this was actually caused by someone in reddit who has friends in the splc and who was angry that the agent orange files which shows the radfems from the radfemhub who are behind this get together talk about killing kids because they are male and want to throw them through windows ( this radfem is a teacher of special needs kids btw ) , I put my story out there to offer up my reasons for being MRA and to try and dispel a myth or two about what makes an mra tick.

The SPLC are getting money from the radfemhub , an organisation that supposedly fights against hate is taking money from a group that hates anyone not womyn born womyn which pretty much destroys there standpoint.

Im sorry you find my choices objectionable , but im also saddened that you upon seeing in an mra and the fact that it was a feminists actions in abusing me that made me an mra that you refused to see the fact that I signed up because i saw some major middle ground, i saw that there was a feminist who was standing up against hate and challenging , i congratulated the op for showing that the whole "not all feminists are like that" argument is actually true and also was made even happier to see that there are some feminists who are aware of the damage radical feminism does , as i said im an Mra because no other group could see me as a human being who was hurting , i cant be a feminist, the damage in me is too great for that but the op here has taken me , an anti feminist , a libertarian and actually made me see things can be better , i did this because the op showed what is good in feminism.

And i would respectfully suggest you check what the MRA is actually about , anything written by dr warren farrel or erin pizzey is a good place to start ,

MRA are not feminists.

An admitted libertarian MRA, signs up to post on Democratic site's protected feminist board ... I'm sorry, it just doesn't smell right. MRA does not fit this group's sop.

I posted because i was genuinely pleased to see the aspects of feminisim i dont often see come to the fore and challenge a hatefull aspect of the feminist ideology , i also provided my own history to show why the radfem ideology has caused me as a human being pain growing up , i saw the op , who im starting to think may be in the minority state that she didnt want feminisim to call a bigoted form of the ideology partners, or equals, she wanted what i want, and what every rational human wants for everyone to be treated the same and in a fair manner . What is happening now is nastiness because i told my story , relevant to this because it was from people who use the same ideology as those banned from the hall, not the good people but the bad , but because of this i am facing hostility when i came here to congratulate and to say as a human being and as an MRA that I was delighted to see that i was proved wrong, that feminists would call out bigotry and hatred within there own ranks and to say that i hoped this was a way everyone could move forward, however it seems that for quite a few of you , and sadly when i mentioned the good i saw here elsewhere several of the people there called this as something that would happen , have seen the fact that people criticizing some while congratulating others as something suspect. This is what i meant about the pendulum, if both sides dont reach out to each other we will never move forward, i really regret sharing here now.

but this is a safe haven group for Feminists to discuss things comfortably with each other. If you're MRA, that doesn't fit the Feminist Group's SOP we're not on the same side.

I hope you explore the rest of DU and make a decision based on that. There's a lot of richness and interesting discussion throughout the entire site. If you're a Democrat, you'll feel very welcome on the main board and in most of the other groups.

Hopefully with time, you'll rethink your views about being MRA and realize we're not the enemy.

to their preference.

From the OP:

They'll cost a lot more allies than they'll do good.

"You shouldn't be oppressing me, you should be oppressing THEM!" will run off pretty much everyone that isn't one of them in fairly short order. And it should, because it's a shitty attitude to have.

I've got zero sympathy for bigots, no matter what reproductive organs they have.

Edited to add: It also destroys any argument they might make regarding privilege or rights. I wouldn't take a gay man's argument for marriage equality seriously if he were making it in a Klan robe, and I see no reason anyone should listen to these people.

They think trans women are stealth straight guys who have decided to put on "womanface" (which they distastefully associate with blackface, as fucking if) in a super-secret MRA conspiracy to penetrate women with their penis. That's it. That's the whole theory. This "cotton ceiling" red herring was filled with straw by people looking for something to fit their already persecuted world view.

Sorry, I can't ally with female supremacists. Trans women are some of the most persecuted women around and cis women should spread their protection over them. When rad fems come out of the hills and realize that we're not all part of the Great Penis Conspiracy, then we can talk.

If there is some RadFem blog or sector that I have overlooked who disavows this *transphobic* and reactionary "theory", I apologize. But all of the main movers and shakers seem to echo this ugly and bizarre narrative. Not my people.

Some people think about penises WAY too much.

Not past high school anyway, lol.

I know that one of my uncles would talk in tongues to stop, "urges."

*goes to happy place* don't want to think about that!

I was thinking of Zardoz--DON'T watch this at work...

Mind if I steal it?

Spread it around. Here is the link I snagged it from.

It's so perfect that I had to google to find out if it was real.

I'd like to see the index and check the names of the authors

I don't work.

I keeed....hehe...'just put your hand on the glass of the TVEE'...oh how I remember that particular fella...sold his mother for a glass of warm spit.

EDIT - 'Who is THAT' you say? Some clarification for those unaware.

But I'm related to evangelical fundamentalist southern baptist missionaries.

Hey, I give them credit for trying...unlike the Snake Oil Salesman RT. Badulaa Sabana Ubunui Blehblah Poo HA!

They see the *hateful* penis everywhere and if you ever had one, you're the enemy. Nevermind that transwomen suffer horrific abuse at the hands of the patriarchy or take a dip in income after crossing over. Nevermind that "One isn't born a woman, one becomes one". Nevermind that their heroes and leaders are batshit crazy, it's the penis. Always the penis.

What a sick obsession of victimization from women who forgot how society once classified Lesbians as *unfit* and are now working overtime to transfer that title to even more marginalized and victimized women. At one time, medical literature said Lesbians were *unfit* women with penis envy.

Oh how the song changes but the same beat goes on. Oppress, beat up, hate so YOU can be at the top of your own little hate ladder.

Some of these Radfems are nothing but hateful lunatics. Its too bad that those (hopefully few!) are painting a bad picture for the ones that aren't raving loonies. I would spit on someone who told me my son was something evil as easily as I would spit on someone who said that about my daughter.

Way to belittle our feelings on bigotry, yay, thank you so much!

A female bigot is still a bigot. I'm not going to pretend a sisterhood with someone like Jeffreys any more than I would pretend one with Sarah Palin. I want no part of either of them.

While women may not deserve to be silenced, there are plenty of ideas that damn well do deserve it and should be. Until they are completely stamped out. Racism, for example. Sexism. Homophobia. Rape culture. Ideas that promote hatred for an "other" or in any way reduce a group to second class citizens are counterproductive to any progressive movement. If radfem doesn't want to be associated with bigotry, it needs to disassociate itself, loud clear and as a movement, from people like Jeffreys who promote those ideas. A good start to that would be not inviting them to speak at public events, because then there wouldn't be these little outcries and conferences wouldn't get canceled.

Please try to remember that this is NOT the fault of the people complaining. It's the fault of a group of transphobic women and the organizers who chose to give them a spotlight.

Last edited Sun Jun 3, 2012, 11:26 AM - Edit history (1)

The underlined words are an addition to reflect the EVOLVING attitudes of progress and solidarity.

"The job of the gay community and the trans community is not to deal with extremists who would castigate us or put us on an island and drop an H-bomb on us. The fact of the matter is that there is a small percentage of people in America who understand the true nature of the homosexual and trans communities. There is another small percentage who will never understand us. Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate. That’s our job today: to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antigay and antitranssentiments."

From Bayard Rustin’s essay From Montgomery To Stonewall, found in the book Time on Two Crosses: The Collected Writings of Bayard Rustin

Sterilization of the unfit is regarded with near universal opprobrium. This, I am quite sure, is the same fate that awaits the practice of transgenderism.

- Sheila Jeffreys, The Need For Feminists To Challenge The Practice Of Transgenderism

It is good to see positive actions happening.

Just a heads up - Feminism is a protected group, which is to say that while you may disagree with members here, this is not the place to voice your disagreement. Please see the "About this group" ling at the top of the page.

I think this one is fully cognizant of the group guidelines.

give people the benefit of the doubt. Bit you're probably right.

Thanks for the contribution, goofbot.

I think you took a wrong turn, this group is for Feminists to discuss Feminism and women's issues.

Phrases like "the malignant social cancer it has become", and the many inaccuracies in your screed about what Feminism believes about men, reek.

Then I found this charmer on another site

Keep the hazmat suit on before entering.

Thanks Cyberswede

Warning to future MRA disruptors. Don't bother with the kamikaze missions.

When *is* the next meeting of Teh Global Puppet Master Wimmin Conspiracy? I've misplaced the schedule.

We've had library girl here a lot. Don't know about the other random characters.

It was the number 1 result in google news for RadFem 2012 for a week so that could explain it. I think the main reason is they sense a family fight and want to take advantage of it. Not a very good idea.

While the conference calls itself "RadFem2012" the actual term RadFem describes something very different than the views of the women attending that conference. The women attending that conference are more correctly described as Seperatist Feminists (See Below). My beliefs are closely aligned with Radical Feminists like Ellen Willis. She would not have approved of RadFem2012 or the beliefs of the people attending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism

Separatist feminism is a form of radical feminism that holds that opposition to patriarchy is best done through focusing exclusively on women and girls. Some separatist feminists do not believe that men can make positive contributions to the feminist movement and that even well-intentioned men replicate the dynamics of patriarchy.

Author Marilyn Frye describes separatist feminism as "separation of various sorts or modes from men and from institutions, relationships, roles and activities that are male-defined, male-dominated, and operating for the benefit of males and the maintenance of male privilege—this separation being initiated or maintained, at will, by women."

In a tract on socialist feminism published in 1972, the Hyde Park Chapter of the Chicago Women's Liberation Union differentiated between Separatism as an "ideological position", and as a "tactical position" In the same document, they further distinguished between separatism as "personal practice" and as "political position".