So, I'm just throwing it out there:

have an election for a Main Host, and then incorporate the hosts of F & D with the FG hosts, put in hierarchy by the main host. To do that, all the current FG hosts would have to resign so the main host could reappoint in staggered order.

If everyone still wants to merge, we can do it that way, since the F & D Hosts were okayed by the group, which has a huge amount of member overlap.

I hve no problem with you being Main Host.

It's not a top priority and he can simply change the name of this one, take all the members from F&DG and add them to our member list, then delete the other group.

I have doubts that members will go for that. There's around 103 threads in F&DG...

During a truly challenging time. I completely understand wanting to retire, now that the dust has begun to settle: I'd be worn out too!

I'm torn about changing the SoP of this group. I think it's wonderful that no one has been blocked, and that we've still managed to keep it civil. But some may use that to attempt another coup. I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid, or just realistic, given the history of this group and others.

I'm happy to keep the co-hosts, and just move everyone up a notch. They're all good people in my book.

Along with Neoma, all the co-hosts have resigned in preparation for an election. I want to say again how much we appreciate their service to this group.

edit to clarify.

you were bolder than I would have been. but I think the results speak for themselves.



good luck to the group and new or returning hosts. i hope everything goes as well as possible.

hopefully none so bitter than people just decide not to run (like the last time)

thanks to neoma & everyone else who is invested in this forum

during all the upheaval. Looking forward to having an election and getting this group humming once again.

Thanks to yardwork for stepping up too!


eta: I think the current SOP is very good. If F&D and Feminists do combine it will need tweaking.

For the great job, Neoma. You were tough and strong throughout. Your detractors were evil, mean, nefarious, fanatical, raving, delerious, emotional, neurotic, rabid, fuming, panic stricken, overwrought, barking mad, sanctimonious, agitated, raging, frenzied, scornful,contemptible, mocking., ignorant, dense, vulgar, crude, misguided, and just plain snotty.

You are a legend for standing up to the abuse and torment of iverglas's followers.

I was critical of Neoma's actions and judgment as a Host. People are able to criticise the actions of a Host and it's not all the ridiculous things you say. Hell, I copped abuse as a Host, and I didn't see you attacking anyone who criticised me as being any of those things...

I told Yardwork I'd return, but I'm not going to be returning if abuse such as what you've just posted is going to be what I return to.

edit: I hope you consider self-deleting that attack. That's something I'd expect would go down well in Meta for those who are interested in waging battle with other DUers.

I've seen no attempts to heal any rift whatsoever. No remorse, no reflecting.

iverglas has been proven to be a complete troll, and a lot of people protected iverglas during the flame-war. That was most of the flame-war. iverglas was being in complete outrage over many things and people were protecting her. People not only "Criticized the actions of a host." People demonized me. People demanded things out of me, and called me many names. Even making fun of my health problems while at it.

I've never seen anyone else called-out more times than me. Even MineralMan had it easy in comparison. No one cooled their heads to ask me the questions they repeatedly asked in meta. Which I will say, I considered all of it flame-bait.

Even if there was no trans-phobia within the Feminist's group (which I assure you, there was,) I believe firing iverglas for bringing a flame-war into a safe-haven was reason enough.

People attacked me as a person for two weeks, instead of getting the right information about how DU really works. There's no excuse for that.

you had to take from all sides while you restored some order to the group. I you for the outstanding job you have done.

I'm not going to apologise for criticising the way you treated members of this group. If you want to call that bullying, you run with it, but I don't see how any of what yr saying or doing is showing an interest in moving forward and trying to welcome everyone into this group...

Y'know, I think this thread is about the future, and not to rehash old fights and stuff. Let's keep it focused on the group, and put everything else in the past. Deal?

You know you owe her one, as do many others. In the spirit of moving on, and all ...

I don't do fake or dishonest...

I'm not going to apologise for criticising the actions of any Host at DU. If you don't like that, that's yr issue, not mine. Take it to Meta, but please don't do the whole rehashing, attacking, rehashing, attacking thing here.

Criticism is one thing ....... being purposefully cruel is something I don't understand, so I guess that is my issue. The trouble is, someone was hurt, day after day ... and not just by one or two people, but a whole relentless gang. It was a continuous attack, and for what??? to keep control of a group that was so unwelcoming that even a hard-ass like me didn't dare post in it. Personal information was even passed around to demonize her with. Yes, she is owed an apology. I guess the only thing that really matters is that she realizes and owns that. She can hold her head high!

Yr not the slightest bit interested in putting things in the past and moving on, are you?

The fact that you're doubling-down on the hurt (cruelty) you all inflicted on Neoma now by suggesting she move on / get over it ... without even validating the reason she still feels the way she does - says more than you realize.

I won't post what I want to. But you do have stuff to apologize for. Most of us HAVE tried to let it die and let it be in the past... you might take your own advice.

Out of respect for Yardwork and what she's trying to do, I'm not going to engage in any attempts to dredge up the past. It needs to be left in the past and not dragged up. So I've edited out what I said in response to you...

That's exactly what I was saying, so, in this, we are in agreement.

The whole world may not have, but meta sure did. The future will not be bright if all of HOF ignores that it ever happened. People have not moved on, they're still attacking each other, and to deny that it came from the feb/mar flame-war is tying your hands behind your backs. To deny it wasn't about me in the end, is also setting yourself up. People have long memories. I have no control whether or not people attack you in meta, or any reason to get in that mess. I only look in meta to see if I'm being attacked again. Can you say the same?

What did I do? I let people rant about me with hundreds of posts and dozens of threads. I locked the flame-war threads. What did I do? I fired iverglas and blocked her for being transphobic and shunning men along with feeding the flame-war when I asked her to stop, and bringing the flame-war into the Feminist's group. What did I do? I fired Redqueen (Who I accepted as a co-host, hoping she'd help!), seabeyond, and laconisax for not only not helping me with iverglas, but for attempting a coup and demanding my head on a platter! I decided to be silent because everyone was attacking me at once. Have you ever gotten used to seeing people say how horrible you are? Seeing peoppe barf at your name?

I was elected, then rejected. I didn't ask for any of this. I simply went for what I thought the only option there was for me, and tried to pull through with my dignity intact. The most hilarious thing about it all, is that I offered my position to Redqueen before I actually caught on to what the flame-war was about.

I just have one real question for you: do you really miss iverglas THAT much? To practically spit in my face with this nonsense that the only way to go through the future is to ignore the past? The group that insults me so frequently has the word history in it! You gotta enjoy the irony there.

The reason I can't leave this in the past is because I cannot forgive you, and many other people. No remorse or reflection... I believe that is heartless, cold, and vile. You hate me for christsakes! I have done nothing but try to do my best for this group.

I'm sorry to have even gone on DU. Because I'm very sure that your reply will be insulting and cruel.

I want no beef with HOF, I want to be left alone by all of you. Do you think I don't catch on to what all of you say?

You're awesome.



I'd prefer a conversation with you over the entire pack of Iverglas apostles any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I think a lot of the other women feel the same. Put the whole lot of them on ignore and come hang out with the cool kids.

What I'm interested in is getting feminists at DU to move forward and not be at each other's throats. You've made it very clear that you don't want me here in this group, and also that even though I'm definitely someone who's been attacked by DUers in quite a few other places than Meta, yr somehow unique in feeling like you've been attacked....

I'm a bit lost as to why you keep on bringing iverglas into things, nor why you appear to be trying to make everyone think I actually miss her. There's quite a few DUers, some of whom have posted in this thread, who can assure you the complete opposite is true...

You might find this cruel and insulting, so apologies in advance for being so insensitive, but I think feminism itself is far more important than you or yr dislike of me and other people at DU. I'm sick of all the personal stuff I'm seeing that's getting in the way of feminists at DU uniting. I don't feel strongly about you one way or the other, and haven't thought about you, let alone refer to you for ages, so the dislike isn't mutual, and I have no idea at all why yr claiming I *hate* you. I've been at DU a hell of a long time, and encountered some folk back in the day in the I/P forum who had a habit of calling me a slut (always done away from DU) and making nasty comments about me being a single mum. If I were to hate anyone, it'd be some of them, but I don't do hate...


I'll leave you at this point, as you've made it clear yr not interested in leaving the past in the past, and that's the one thing I think everyone needs to do in order for all this divisiveness amongst feminists at DU to end. I have no problem with you now, and if you've got a problem with me, there's not a whole lot I can do about that...

*peace*

just sayin' you might want to edit your subject line.

And to clear up a very obvious misunderstanding when it came to who I apparently miss at DU. Sorry if doing so offended you!

and that part about not hating Neoma is welcome to hear, for sure because I think she really felt that for a long time from some, so yeh, that's good you said that.

I never said that anyone was unwelcome in the Feminist's group, but I do admit there has been confusion over that part.

I didn't allow transphobia or misandry or attacks on myself or others. I have believed that as long as no one goes that route, they're okay in here.

I have been open to discussion, but no one has even tried.

Because she didn't have any hash to start with -

She has not been involved in any of the Meta fights and has kept her cool throughout this ordeal and deserves her time to talk now if she chooses to.

I can't find them anywhere LOL

You have many more friends than enemies.

Whether she lied to me about that quote is up for you to decide. But more to the point, iverglas herself admitted transphobia in that.

They are the definition of transphobic. They are a violation of DU's community standards.

Yes, she's gone.

But the uproar over me was due to me firing and blocking her. Then the rest for demanding my head.

Lest those whose work she does hear.

You know, some of us have tried to play nicely with others. We've extended olive branches. We've bitten our tongues to avoid placing blame. But when I see the biggest bully on the playground defended here, by the same crew who cheered her on, I have to say something.

Neoma didn't ask for that job. She didn't want it. But when one of you threw a temper tantrum and handed it to her, she did it with grace. And when she wouldn't give it back, because you didn't like the way she did it, you hounded her. Yes, she blocked iverglas. Those of us who'd been her targets for years gave a sigh of relief. The woman is a sociopath. Despite multiple warnings to moderate her behavior she continued to attack anyone who'd ever disagreed with her both publicly and in vicious pm's. She dragged up anyone's private struggles with addiction or mental health issues to smear us.

We knew it was only a matter of time until iverglas did something so horrendous that the admins would ban her. When her posting privileges were revoked, there was great rejoicing.

Now Neoma has chosen to retire from hosting this group, and some of us would like to thank her for steering it through a really nasty patch. But others just want to take another dump on her.

Go back where you came from. Right now I want to sing this:

is always a good thing.
Thank you for speaking clearly, honestly, and with class

the way I read it. seabeyond is not trans-phobic, period.

including her own pm's during that discussion.

Neoma knows that she was not presenting the whole discussion and as usual she just pulls parts out of context to fit her agenda.

She sure does know how to make things read in a different way than was actually being talked about. That's why I told her, her reading and mine are at polar opposites. That screen shot was not a homo-phobic. But I can see why you might feel it is. Neoma knows it wasn't.

Coming from iverglas, not surprised. Coming from sb, though, is somewhat surprising.

There's no way there's going to be any chance of healing things if the past is going to be rehashed over and over again. We need to move forward and support Yardwork in what she's trying to do...

*peace*

Leave the past in the past. The Meta threads that spin off from our old feud are not helping any of us and all of the wrong people are getting a big giant kick out of it.

It's over and in the past. If one can't leave it there, please don't bring it here.

I'm pretty certain that Yardwork wants to work towards burying past grievances and have us end up in a position where if there's not one feminism group, the ones that do exist will exist in harmony and have a free flow of ideas and people between them. That's when feminists at DU will be able to focus on what's the problem for all of us, misogyny. I totally support her in this, and I'm going to do my part to help anyone who's trying to move people away from the infighting and personal grudges that imo has been crippling us for too long. If people want to talk away about who called who what insulting name ages ago, then they can go for it, but I'm not going to play, and I hope others who are interested in getting feminism at DU moving forward do the same thing...

at DU moving forward.

What are you proposing to change?

I had this novel idea that I'm pretty sure was shared by some in this group and HoF that the animosity and hostility between individuals and groups stop. You don't want that? Fine. How about you and others like you go and ask Skinner to start you a new group. You could call it 'We call ourselves feminists, but never post about anything other than how much we don't like other feminists and we really get off on watching them all fight with each other over stuff that doesn't matter?' I'm sure he'll be happy to help you out!

on edit: I think it's pretty safe to say that none of these femimist groups can effectively move forward as much as they could if the hostility between them was put to an end. You don't agree with me, but I've not seen anything from you explaining how you think the groups are stronger divided than united. Maybe you could explain how harbouring hostility and resentment moves feminism forward?

Last edited Sat Jun 23, 2012, 04:27 PM - Edit history (1)

and once people get that out of their systems they'll either choose to participate in a constructive way even with those who have hurt, insulted, or angered them in the past or they'll not find this a welcome place.

No one who cares about this group or about fighting misogyny wants to turn this into a mini-Meta group.

You're really something.

that an examination of the subscriber/trash numbers among the variou feminist groups are ample proof of the quality of your leadership.

A job well done.

The mental health group to expose their issues and refer to women's genitals as fucktoilets, I'll get back to you.

I didn't call anyone a bitch even thought the behavior was reprehensible.

I'm not playing nice when others kick sand in my face in the sand box.

but in the interest of keeping the civil tone in this group, I'm going to second Violet_Crumble's
request that you self-delete your post.

This post and yardwork's nomination to the host position is the next step in letting it go. This is really not helpful in a post that is supposed to be about looking forward and the continued healing of this group. I join Gormy Cuss and Violet_Crumble in requesting that you self-delete.

Cool, didn't take much!

Thank you for making realize this isn't a good place for me.

Yardwork, thank you for your invite. I will decline at this time.

Good luck on your group.

Basically, lead host (everyone's probably fine with you in the role, so it's really a formality) needs to be figured out first, then co-hosts.

1: Pin a simple yes or no poll on whether to retain you as lead host with a reasonable time limit (a week or something like that).
2: Unpin and lock the poll when it's done and pin a thread with the results.

If you're retained as lead host:
1: Pin a post calling for nominations/volunteers for co-host positions and keep it open for a stated length of time.
2: When time's up, lock and unpin the thread and replace it with a pinned poll with all of the candidates and put a time limit on it.
3: Unpin and lock the poll then add the top vote-getters as hosts in order of votes received.

If you're not retained as lead host:
1: Pin a post calling for nominations/volunteers for lead host and keep it open for a stated length of time.
2: When time's up, lock and unpin the thread and replace it with a pinned poll to choose the new lead host and put a time limit on it.
3: Unpin and lock the poll, replace it with a pinned results thread, add the winner as a host and retire.
4: The new lead host then follows the aforementioned three steps for adding co-hosts.

The question that it doesn't address is whether there will be any limitations on who is eligible to vote. Everyone on DU? Everyone who subscribes to any of the 2 or 3 groups being merged? Everyone who subscribes to any of the 2 or three groups being merged except anyone who is banned from any of them (I don't know if there are any)?

Since the group will presumably be a safe haven group, it makes sense to place some limitations on who votes - picking the limitations may be a bit ticklish.

It's way too easy to get bogged down in the minutia of who should and shouldn't vote. Usernames are visible and it'd be easy to see if a significant number of votes belonged to people who don't actually participate here or worse, consistently express sexist and misogynist viewpoints.

to worry about the details later (creating the initial host list without thinking about what that list would mean about the succession do if the main host ever resigned).

All I am suggesting is that after the vote is in may not be the best time to decide whether to accept the results, because it appears many of them were cast by people who don't participate or consistently express sexist and mysogynist viewpoints.

Seeing as polls now show who voted for what, how can that make it easier to conduct an election and still have a 'tick sheet' sort of thing to verify everyone who is voting.

I don't think we can have a list of all the people who have registered to this forum - at least pretty sure Skinner said that wasn't possible or am I not remembering correctly. Could be that we can't see the list, but admin is able to and can give it to us. Argh, can't remember.

So if it's possible we can have that list, those are the ones able to vote - people who have subscribed to this group are eligible to vote.

And we can verify by looking at the poll itself.

BUT, and I'm sure I read this in another election thread somewhere else on DU - there should be a date established as to the cut-off of who is a voting member (a date well previous to any talk of an election) to avoid people subscribing just to vote and cause mischief. I'd like to think that wouldn't be done, but stranger things have happened on DU, as we all know.

Something to think about.
Does that sound fair?

and the co-hosts have done a wonderful job and should be very proud of such a warm, welcoming and interesting group.

And a hearty thanks to Whisp, REP and unblock and the others who worked so hard during the transition. Looking forward to the work going forward with all the great posters here. <3

I certainly didn't want the job when everything was in so much upheaval!!

And I sincerely appreciate you stepping in to takeover now, yardwork.

It will likely be a two step process...first, does the SOP need work?

A safe community where all those interested in discussing and trying to resolve the problems that are inherent to women in society can come and work together, without having to defend the basic premise that issues do exist which specifically affect and limit women, their rights and their potential.

I do not think it needs much work, except to possibly state that bigotry of any sort will not be tolerated. I know we shouldn't HAVE to state that, but I think we do.

Second, a simple poll (Yes/No) as others have stated that asks if we should retain you as lead host (I'm all for that).

Then, get a list of potential co-hosts (after we figure out how many we would need. 3 co-hosts seemed to be able to keep up pretty well over the last few months, but that's not up to me). Then, put up a poll for each co-host that's in the running... the {x number=number of co-hosts we need} with the highest number of Yes votes will be the co-hosts.

I don't know... maybe that's getting REALLY complicated. I'm an Analyst and I guess I can't stop doing it.

There have been several good suggestions in this thread. A few people have also PMed me ideas. I'd like to hear more ideas about how to hold the election and then we can move forward later this weekend.

Thank you, also, to the many posters here who have expressed appreciation to Neoma and the co-hosts who held this group together over many months.

I understand wanting people to get along, but HOF members wanted their own forum for very specific reasons.
Praising Neoma while at the same time inviting HOF members to rejoin and even vote for a new host in feminism forum seems very contradictory to me. It almost seems like you were setting her up for an ambush of sorts. Not nice at all. She deserves better than that.

I believe it Feminists and Diversity and the Feminists Group that are merging?

When I read that yardwork had asked at least one HOF member to vote for a new feminist forum host.

Not HoF. No one ever ssaid that.

To quickly recap and answer your questions:

1. There are threads in both the Feminism and Feminism & Diversity groups with polls asking members to vote on merging their groups. Super majorities in both groups voted to merge. My understanding is that Skinner was asked to merge the two groups but there were details to be worked out.

2. There are no plans that I know of to merge this group with any group other than F&D.

3. Yesterday Neoma wrote to me and asked me if I would be host of this group, as she wanted to retire. I agreed with the understanding that I would immediately hold an election for host. This thread was my announcement of that plan. I am an interim host. I had hoped that the merger with the Feminism & Diversity group could happen immediately, perhaps even negating the need for elections here, but as you can see by the first couple of posts in this thread, there are still questions and issues to be worked out with the merger. So we'll move forward with the election of a host, and then the two groups can continue with the work of merging.

4. I sent PMs to many people yesterday letting them know that I am interim host of the Feminism group and that we will be holding an election. I reached out to some people who used to be members of the Feminism group and now often post in History of Feminism. Those posts were personal notes from me in my role as interim host. I have no desire to continue the flame wars of the past. I believe that they are dividing women on DU and keeping us from uniting around progressive causes, notably the reelection of President Obama.

5. I'm very sorry that a flamewar erupted here last night, and I've apologized to Neoma that she had to read those things. I can see how it might look like an ambush but that was certainly not my intention. I could have handled it by simply blocking some people from the group, but I believe that that would have made things worse. I didn't want to begin my first day as interim host by blocking people. There are a lot of strong feelings that are not going to go away overnight.

I hope that everybody who believes in progressive causes, including equal rights for women, will do what they can to help move us forward. Fighting divides us.

My message to anybody reading this is this - if you feel that you can't participate in this group constructively, without attacking others, please don't post here. The consensus of people posting in this thread is that the Feminism group wants to move forward. Personal attacks are not welcome here by our members. That is the consensus of this group. I don't want to have to block anybody as interim host, but if I have to I will. Thanks for understanding.

Merging the 2 groups makes sense to me, too. Good luck!

Thank you, maddezmom!

Thanks, maddezmom!

Happens every time I come back from vacation at work, too... I reply to the first emails I got just to find out that someone else already answered them 4 days ago LOL

I posted to that one, too

We have a great line up for interim hosts.



The best thing is we have so many folks that have more experience and knowledge than me...and I am confident we will have a great host team after the election.

She has sent me advice via PM before, and those PM's concerned the healing of DU.

I trust her sincerity on other subjects too, just to be clear.

You really impressed me during that meltdown period. I think you showed a lot of determined restraint during that time - I think the continuous attacks on your character were absolutely petty and disgusting...but you were bigger than that. I also admire the way you have transitioned this forum into a meaningful part of DU.

Guess you weren't such an awful dictator after all.

You took a ton of dreadful, unreasonable and vicious abuse and you conducted yourself in a dignified and positive way despite extraordinary pressure and pettiness on the part of others. You most certainly deserve a break from all that brou-ha-ha. You did an outstanding job against great odds. Pat yourself on the back for me!

Last edited Sat Jun 23, 2012, 04:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Many thanks to each of them for agreeing to serve until we complete the election.

Thank you to everybody who has posted in this thread so far and sent me PMs with suggestions on how to coordinate the election. I'm thinking that we should wait another day or so to let more people make suggestions. Then I plan to open a thread asking for people to nominate themselves for the position of lead host. That will stay open for a week to allow plenty of time for people to see it (including folks who only post on weekdays, weekends, nights, and in other time zones). After a week, we'll post a thread for votes. The vote thread can stay up for a week. So it looks like it will be slightly more than two weeks between now and when we elect a permanent host.

Please continue to make comments and suggestions about the election process.

I may be jumping ahead of things a bit here, but I'll post this now in case I forget to do it later.

If they can give a very short resumé sort of thing in their nomination post.

Just a few lines of what they think are important qualities or experience (could be leadership exp, women's history buff, anything at all, ), that they have for a good influence on the group.

Thanks for doing that.

Glad to help out. Now that DU3 has the poll function, that should make voting more streamlined.

Thank you for helping to all of you. (I would go on about how much I admire all 4 of your, but I've already been accused of being a sycophant in the last week, so I'll just leave it at "Thanks!&quot

of two different people?

Laconicsax might be jealous

I only learned that I have sycophants and toadies recently and now I have to share?

Maybe I'm actually your toadie... it wasn't too specific.

"do your bidding" than "suck up to"

ETA: According to dictionary.com, toady, lackey and sycophant are synonymous.

Also a synonym!!!!

I was worried when Neoma said she was retiring because I thought she did a fantastic job, but I know the group will be in good hands now!

I'm sure yardwork will do a good job. I hope to have some great conversations.

Thanks for remaining fairly unruffled in the storm.

Thank you.

I used to live where there were millions of tulips. Every spring we would drive around on back roads for miles through blooming fields of them. If you love tulips, and are ever in NW Washington in April, be sure not to miss the bloom festival.

You did a great job!

And thank you to yardwork, Maddezmom, Gormy Cuss, Obamanut2012, and Starry Messenger for being interim hosts!

May peace be with you.