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Starry Messenger

(32,375 posts)
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:04 PM Jul 2012

600-year-old linen bras found in Austrian castle

http://news.yahoo.com/600-old-linen-bras-found-austrian-castle-192408678.html



VIENNA (AP) — A revolutionary discovery is rewriting the history of underwear: Some 600 years ago, women wore bras.

The University of Innsbruck said Wednesday that archeologists found four linen bras dating from the Middle Ages in an Austrian castle. Fashion experts describe the find as surprising because the bra had commonly been thought to be only little more than 100 years old as women abandoned the tight corset.

Instead, it appears the bra came first, followed by the corset, followed by the reinvented bra.

One specimen in particular "looks exactly like a (modern) brassiere," says Hilary Davidson, fashion curator for the London Museum. "These are amazing finds."

Although the linen garments were unearthed in 2008, they did not make news until now says Beatrix Nutz, the archaeologist responsible for the discovery.

<snip>



39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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600-year-old linen bras found in Austrian castle (Original Post) Starry Messenger Jul 2012 OP
i thought that coco channel invented the bra. iemitsu Jul 2012 #1
I think the rocket bra came later, 1940's. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #2
Mary Phelps Jacob is usually credited with inventing the modern bra REP Jul 2012 #4
I love this but would like to know why they think women didn't wear LaurenG Jul 2012 #3
They swear that medieval women went commando. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #5
I know, I guess they were all just sent to the barn for a week each month to LaurenG Jul 2012 #15
They must have worn diapers. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2012 #21
That's interesting. LaurenG Jul 2012 #24
My grandmother described something similar in her autobiography. Crunchy Frog Jul 2012 #33
So did mine Gormy Cuss Jul 2012 #37
Yep. nt LaurenG Jul 2012 #39
Were they underwires? Gormy Cuss Jul 2012 #6
They almost look like it, don't they? Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #7
Modesty? I'm thinking utility myself... REP Jul 2012 #8
Yes, linen would be good for that. Gormy Cuss Jul 2012 #9
Not really 'good thinking' - it's the main reason I wear an Iron Maidenform myself! REP Jul 2012 #10
Yup. FloridaJudy Jul 2012 #11
I would love a linen bra. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #12
lol! robinlynne Jul 2012 #26
Somebody should do reconstructions and put them on the market. Crunchy Frog Jul 2012 #34
I wonder if the woman that invented the bra ever got any credit or compensation Zorra Jul 2012 #13
Are you kidding? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #16
Not true at all - women were allowed inheritances they were just last in line for property, money, Hestia Jul 2012 #18
I keep forgetting the rights of women have fluxuated. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #23
Wasn't the bra invented by Harry Titsling? ahg Jul 2012 #14
According to Trivia Pursuit. I always thouight that answer was thrown in for lumpy Jul 2012 #31
For those thinking this is really "modern" Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #17
The description calls those a bikini. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #19
Actually what this discovery informs us about Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #20
I've always associated corsets more with the Victorian era. Crunchy Frog Jul 2012 #35
That's a spoof. Gormy Cuss Jul 2012 #38
I'm sorry, but is that a wardrobe malfunction I'm seeing there? Thor_MN Jul 2012 #22
And the old german word for those bras would be "Holds 'em from flopping." Botany Jul 2012 #25
Die Brustenhalter is the German word, I believe. mysuzuki2 Jul 2012 #27
Danke Botany Jul 2012 #29
Bitteschoen meine gute Freund(in). mysuzuki2 Jul 2012 #30
and in related news, mysuzuki2 Jul 2012 #28
There's no written history of "unmentionables" ? Gee, I wonder why ... nt eppur_se_muova Jul 2012 #32
Somebody must have invented the bra and panties LONG AGO. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2012 #36

Starry Messenger

(32,375 posts)
2. I think the rocket bra came later, 1940's.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:30 PM
Jul 2012

Evidently some medieval ladies invented the bra itself many centuries before that though. I wonder how many period films have women wrongly wearing corsets in them?

LaurenG

(24,841 posts)
3. I love this but would like to know why they think women didn't wear
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:32 PM
Jul 2012

Anything under their dresses. I 'm pretty sure they had to have worn something like panties at least part of the time.

Starry Messenger

(32,375 posts)
5. They swear that medieval women went commando.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:42 PM
Jul 2012

Evidently undies were a sign of manhood:



Also found at Lemberg Castle in Tyrol was a linen undergarment that looks very much like a pair of panties. But Nutz said it is men's underwear — women did not wear anything under their flowing skirts back then.

"Underpants were considered a symbol of male dominance and power," she said.

Medieval drawings often show a man and a woman fighting for a pair of underpants in a symbolic battle to see who "wears the trousers" in the family.



LaurenG

(24,841 posts)
15. I know, I guess they were all just sent to the barn for a week each month to
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:10 AM
Jul 2012

sit on the straw. It's silly to think they didn't wear something at least sometimes.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
21. They must have worn diapers.
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:17 PM
Jul 2012

My grandmother told me about making diapers to wear during menstrual periods, with a friend of hers. This was before they sold regular sanitary pads. They started selling them after WW I and they were made out of gauze. The nurses in WWI had gotten the idea.

My grandmother was born in 1898.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
37. So did mine
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 01:15 PM
Jul 2012

and my mother said she remembered being embarrassed on wash day when my grandmother hung her "rags" out on the clothesline.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
6. Were they underwires?
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:58 PM
Jul 2012


I'd love to see a reconstruction of one of these. They look like mere modesty garments but the description of lace adornments brings them to a different level.

Starry Messenger

(32,375 posts)
7. They almost look like it, don't they?
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:27 PM
Jul 2012

I'm amazed by how modern they look, with the darts and straps. I'd love to see a reconstruction too!

REP

(21,691 posts)
8. Modesty? I'm thinking utility myself...
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:58 PM
Jul 2012

(keeping them, erm, unsweaty in warm weather or under heavy clothing)

REP

(21,691 posts)
10. Not really 'good thinking' - it's the main reason I wear an Iron Maidenform myself!
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:19 PM
Jul 2012

Some days, I don't know if it's worse wearing it or not wearing it!

FloridaJudy

(9,465 posts)
11. Yup.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:55 PM
Jul 2012

Mine keep the girls from breaking out in itchy rashes, or hitting me when I have to move fast. Those look rather comfortable, and they'd have to be linen, since cotton wasn't grown in Europe.

Starry Messenger

(32,375 posts)
12. I would love a linen bra.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:13 PM
Jul 2012

I have to wear scary things that look like a cross between Spanx and Darth Vader's breast plate.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
13. I wonder if the woman that invented the bra ever got any credit or compensation
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 02:02 AM
Jul 2012

for it.

I suspect that she may have been a woman with H cups and a sturdy loom.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
16. Are you kidding?
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:08 PM
Jul 2012

Women weren't allowed to own property.

They couldn't even keep their name.

They were just Mrs. His Name.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
18. Not true at all - women were allowed inheritances they were just last in line for property, money,
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 02:13 PM
Jul 2012

During the Middle Ages, women had rights. They could own property, and, in fact, could reign as monarchs in most countries. They had access to safe ways to escape abuse. They were legally not chattel unless they were slaves, and there were few slaves in most western European countries of the Middle Ages. Women could, and did, get educations, and included some of the best scholars of Europe, though not as commonly as men.
Women did not have the same rights as men. They were always last in line to inherit property or titles, after any living brothers.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_were_women_treated_in_the_middle_ages#ixzz2166MPCqF

Interesting info.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
23. I keep forgetting the rights of women have fluxuated.
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:34 PM
Jul 2012

Sometimes they have power and other times they have had none.

Cleopatra comes to mind. She was respected as a leader and teacher in the ancient world. Recreating the library at Alexandria was a major feat.

BTW: I notice when guys think of Cleopatra they tend to dwell on her,...how shall I put this,...comfortable in her own skin type of sexual gratification with anyone she wanted.

I remind them this was before women shaved their legs.

Reality bites.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
17. For those thinking this is really "modern"
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:24 PM
Jul 2012

From ancient Greece, even predating the Roman Empire:

[img][/img]

Starry Messenger

(32,375 posts)
19. The description calls those a bikini.
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 03:19 PM
Jul 2012

Looks more like a bandeau. I think the novelty in the new find is that most women of the Middle Ages were thought to wear corsets.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
20. Actually what this discovery informs us about
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 06:32 PM
Jul 2012

is women went from bras to corsets and then back to bras.

That's pretty significant.

However the concept of a covering like the bikini top goes back to the earliest times.

A support garment worn under the outwear which we now call a "bra" is now known to be much older than previously thought.

Crunchy Frog

(26,892 posts)
35. I've always associated corsets more with the Victorian era.
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:44 PM
Jul 2012

But I don't know much about the history of lingerie.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
38. That's a spoof.
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 02:23 PM
Jul 2012

Follow it back to the original esquire.com article here:

http://www.esquire.com/women/bikini-history#slide-2

Note that the alt text for the photo says "fake bikini."

The free weights were the tip off for me.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
22. I'm sorry, but is that a wardrobe malfunction I'm seeing there?
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:20 PM
Jul 2012

I guess there really isn't anything new/

Botany

(72,282 posts)
29. Danke
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 08:25 PM
Jul 2012

Das ich nicth Deutsches spreche sehr gut ich bin ein pferdkopf

Ich haben ein Imac mit magischem material Ja!

mysuzuki2

(3,537 posts)
28. and in related news,
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 08:16 PM
Jul 2012

a 599 year old letter between 16 year old boys discussing how to unhook the linen bras.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
36. Somebody must have invented the bra and panties LONG AGO.
Fri Jul 20, 2012, 02:20 PM
Jul 2012

Because they are necessary. Women have not changed in their physical attributes in hundreds of thousands of years.

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