It is an individual's own idea of what ever it is, outside of our own ego, that we can allow help to be received. Even the phone pole that we grab to keep from falling down drunk, if that is what it takes.

I'm so glad you are in recovery!

Now, I am not going to PRAY to science anymore than you would pray to your grandmother's dinner roll recipe...although I'll bet those are some damn fine rolls.

I have a good one from the ex-mother in law. My dad was a hard core atheist and spent his last 30 years sober in AA. He worked his program and did his steps with out the sky father concept of a higher power. I'm interested in spiritually as a way to turn things over and let go, not a grand creature to reward or punish me.

The 12 steps

I feel no reason to apologize, and I am going with the one step method

Don't drink!

But if the 12 steps work for you, more power to you

I just know it's not for me

I am in control, as long as I know what is going on

...I am 100% a pragmatist. Whatever works. You do what you need to do, and follow whatever set of beliefs (or lack thereof) in order to stay clean. Kudos on your sobriety!

If speaking in tongues keeps you dry, then speak in tongues

Seems like there's not much there except some drugs that are somewhat helpful in reducing cravings ... Naltrexone, Nalmefene, Acamprosate ... or Antabuse to ensure abstinence but have a lot of issues. Psychological / cognitive therapies? I haven't heard much good about their effectiveness.

Anyway, seems like that's the most difficult leg of the journey, the staying abstinent for days, weeks, months, years, decades. And not much that science offers for this. I'm sure one day it will solve the problem, but probably not in my lifetime. Just wondering.

"Man I really wish I could have a drink!"

"You do? Just take your mind off it."

"How?"

---kicks other guy in nuts----

"OWWWWWWWWW!!! WHY THE FUCK DID YOU DO THAT?????"

"Well, you're not thinking about drinking now, are you?"

http://www.silkworth.net/silkworth/slipshumannature.html

I'll except the important bit

It happens this way: When a tubercular patient recovers sufficiently to be released from the sanitarium, the doctor gives him careful instructions for the way he is to live when he gets home. He must drink plenty of milk. He must refrain from smoking. He must obey other stringent rules.

For the first several months, perhaps for several years, the patient follows directions. But as his strength increases and he feels fully recovered, he becomes slack. There may come the night when he decides he can stay up until ten o'clock. When he does this, nothing untoward happens. Soon he is disregarding the directions given him when he left the sanitarium. Eventually he has a relapse.

The same tragedy can be found in cardiac cases. After the heart attack, the patient is put on a strict rests schedule. Frightened, he naturally follows directions obediently for a long time. He, too, goes to bed early, avoids exercise such as walking upstairs, quits smoking, and leads a Spartan life. Eventually, though there comes a day, after he has been feeling good for months or several years, when he feels he has regained his strength, and has also recovered from his fright. If the elevator is out of repair one day, he walks up the three flights of stairs. Or he decides to go to a party - or do just a little smoking - or take a cocktail or two. If no serious aftereffects follow the first departure from the rigorous schedule prescribed, he may try it again, until he suffers a relapse.

In both cardiac and tubercular cases, the acts which led to the relapses were preceded by wrong thinking. The patient in each case rationalized himself out of a sense of his own perilous reality. He deliberately turned away from his knowledge of the fact that he had been the victim of a serious disease. He grew overconfident. He decided he didn't have to follow directions.

Now that is precisely what happens with the alcoholic - the arrested alcoholic, or the alcoholic in A.A. who has a slip. Obviously, he decides to take a drink again some time before he actually takes it. He starts thinking wrong before he actually embarks on the course that leads to a slip.

[font color = blue]NMDemDist2>quoting Dr. Silkworth "Obviously, he decides to take a drink again some time before he actually takes it. He starts thinking wrong before he actually embarks on the course that leads to a slip".<[/font]

This from one draft annotated version (mine) of the Big Book, p. 35-36 (Chapter 3):

Fine fine bulletproof thinking so far. I always eat in a bar in case a prospective customer might come over to my table (sneak preview: )


How healthy! And he's not sitting at the bar, so no problem.


No quarrel with me -- an ounce of whiskey is much safer on a full stomach than an empty stomach, I always say.


Again, much better than on an empty stomach. This is the *Principle of Harm Reduction*.


Yes, the scientific principle of cautious experimentation.


More data collection. More hypothesis testing. Checking one's results over and over. Not hurrying into publication prematurely.



HUH! I don't get it.

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[div style="display:inline; font-size:1.37em; font-family:monospace; white-space:pre;"] and patient
[div style="display:inline; font-size:1.37em; font-family:monospace; white-space:pre;"]... cunning, baffling, powerful^! -- BB p. 58

good job

and each of us must create that for ourselves, elsewise, it's just somebody else's higher power. I think there is a more omniscient me and an everyday me. The everyday me slogs through life, but when the temptation to use my drug of choice comes up, I turn to my higher power. I hand everything over to her, because while my everyday me, is a mere mortal, my higher power is made of stronger stuff. She does the right thing every single time so I trust her with my life.

Now, the times when I forget to let her drive, well, those are times I end up creating new situations that will require amends. No fun.

I see that kindness and strength as being greater than me. Sometimes people reach out to me, and help that help is what it is, especially if it helps me get thru the crises I am dealing with. cause guess what...I don't do so well alone..............end of rant........Stuart......

...said once, "But you better choose something you believe will keep you sober."

I use a fairly traditional concept of God. I've known AA Buddhists, Humanists, Catholics, Agnostics, all sober many years. But all of them have depth to their spirituality.

The Atheist/Agnostic/Humanist crowd I've seen put great store in the power of AA, and tend to their program very strictly, feeling they must be "all in" if AA is their Higher Power.

One Atheist said he believed there was nothing after this life, so he better make the most of it. That impressed me. I've learned a ton of AA from "non-believers" as it seems they need to WORK AA, not rely on God to fix everything for them. They take actions to get better.

Enjoy the journey, however you may trod.

all the faith and belief in the world NEVER takes the place of the actions of changing our behaviors and beliefs.

AA tells us that &quot HP) will do for us what we CANNOT do for ourselves" but everything else is up to me. So i need to get moving, get changing and start living better to the best of my ability ODAAT

welcome charin!!

We end up in recovery rooms beaten and bruised, we feel powerless, our unmanageable lives look like those of a person who is powerless. Its not hard for any person to be convinced of the Powerlessness, But are we really powerless or just lacking the ability, the knowledge, and the informed choice to stop our addiction? The only reason so much fuss is made about a HP in recovery is that step 1, if such a Powerless position is as absolute as the step tells us then Higher Power is the only solution. So for the free thinking atheist who values skepticism and critical thinking like myself, the challenge is towards the fallacious "powerless position" in Step 1.
I am not saying Will power is the answer, perhaps the word POWER should be removed from the discussion. Seeing the arguments mainly from the sinful flawed human presented in christianity its not hard to see what the 12 steps are modeled on. Its like the indoctrination of children, your powerlessness is presented to you as an absolute, you genuinely feel flawed, fearful and hopeless, this coupled with "nice feelings" and presented as spiritual experiences become a very seductive mix, if you look at any cult throughout the world the same pattern exists. When you are presented with a challenge to your position (perhaps like this post is doing to some) you dig in and start to defend, self justification and one liners keep you in delusion, But the evidence is most people return to their addiction and all that is ever said "you did not surrender or accept step 1" and the process you were indoctrinated to is never questioned "its a sacred cow".

Can you decode a human genome? No - you are powerless in that respect

However, there are scientists who can

AND, there are scientists dedicated to addiction science - the whys, the hows, and how to treat those bruises that we have

Science is a double edged sword, however - there are scientists trying right now to make food more addictive

But it IS a higher power

What kept my anxiety at bay during WDs? Benzidiazapam.

What will make me feel better? Science tells me not drinking.

But yeah, I agree with you

POWER is never a good thing

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely

The same applies for every political movement, religion and sadly, sports teams