Did those plumbers or the last one you had do the repair tell you anything about what is happening ? I'm guessing the problem reoccurs at fittings that are worn of have come loose over time. Ok so pressure and worn fittings. I'm not a plumber ,I am a retired general contractor experience in all phases of construction. What in the form of a consult did the plumber/plumbers give you regards to the problem moving down the pipes ? And the condition of the fittings ? How old is the duplex ? For a plumber this about chasing leaks. And was a pressure test done ? OK so, were the leaks you had repaired at the fittings or in the pipes ? By your description it seems to come down to old or worn fittings bad welds on and so on.Can you see those fittings at the hub ?

You need a good plumbing trouble shooter to come out to your place .

I've been through two plumbers, both of whom didn't seem to know what the heck was going on.

I will try to answer your questions, and please know that I'm not savvy about this stuff, so I may not know. Please don't get frustrated with me if I don't answer your questions fully. Just ask again, and I'll try to be more clear.

The duplex is 32 years old, so it wouldn't be a surprise that the plumbing is worn. But the other side of the duplex has shown no issue at all.

Yes, numerous pressure tests have been done. They've all been right at the readings just under what would be considered "high" but within acceptable levels.

The plumbing enters the duplex from the street, a line goes to the hot water heater and then to the hub of the home. The hub actually backs up to the pantry, and during all of this, parts of the sheetrock into the pantry were cut out to be able to access the hub. Within this hub, there are two bathrooms that join up at a 90 degree angle. This is also very near the sink, dishwasher and laundry area. I've just left those sheetrock areas cut out because I know the problem hasn't been fixed.

The first leak was at the point where the line enters the house. The plumber dug into the ground and fixed that one. No problem.

But then, I started getting a "water hammer" issue on the very back faucet that goes into the back yard. To better explain, this would be the only line that goes from the hub through a pipe in the slab to the hose bib in the backyard. THEN...I got a leak in that line (i.e., the line running to the outdoor faucet). This was a leak in the slab and the plumber dug up the slab and fixed the leak.

At this point, we determined that the cold lines were not leaking, but there was still a leak somewhere in the hot water lines. We did this by watching the "triangle" that is on the water meter. It would totally stop moving when the hot water line was turned off.

I was about out of money, so I've lived the last couple of months by just turning off the hot water line when it is not in use.

But THEN a week ago, I noticed some water ponding in the pantry area again. This was under the floor away from the actual hub part of the plumbing. I looked into the area and I can see some water standing, but I cannot see anything leaking from a pipe, a joint, etc. So I'm assuming this is another slab leak. I looked at the water meter and the triangle moves even with the hot water line turned off.

That makes FOUR leaks. So at this point, I would assume that the best course of action is to have the house replumbed. I know NOTHING about doing that and was hoping to get some advice, education, etc. before I try to locate a better plumber who would do the actual work.

I appreciate any thoughts, suggestions and ideas that you might have.

I will have to look at some cases similar regarding 80's construction plumbing issues. What comes to mind at the moment, I don't think I will go into that. Clearly the problem moves down the pipes, pressure of course is a major factor. Your water pressure is the same setting when the house/structure was built. Since there is no flooding the leaks form at the fittings joints,a guess but most likely a good guess. The pipes come up through the slab and there are probable 90's or whatever the plumbing scenario calls for at the bend-joints. It might be helpful to get a copy of the plumbing blue prints, obtainable for a small fee -county building permits.

Off the top,I think you need to find a plumber in your area that knows a lot about 80's construction and areas all about cutting corners.If you were to re plumb from the meter -under ground -than on up into the unit, that is a major expense. Any plumbing outfit would love to get that big ticket order. But, it is really necessary ? That is where you need a good plumbing trouble shooter to find out and tell you what needs to be done to correct the problem and what doesn't need to be done. It seems by your description the problem areas are at the joints where the pipes come up through the slab and at intersecting joints. Leaks will generally form at welds and joints that loss en over time under pressure.

You don't need roto rooter or some big plumbing outfit coming out there fooling you into thinking all your plumbing is bad and it's time for all new.

You can call a plumbing supplier, where you buy the plumbing supplies and ask for a consult. Describe the problem in that the leak moves down the pipes after a repair. Provide the same information you provided here. They will give you best case scenario and worst case. My guess is the cost of repair is far far less than what it would cost to re plumb the place.32 years is not old on those copper pipes.And don't leave out 80's construction !

And if you have to get five or six plumbing estimates before a decent plumber tell you the truth, than just keep getting estimates, those are free.

The last problem I had with plumbing was a clogged main drain-under ground. I don't dig or even run snakes anymore. A plumbing outfit gave me an estimate of $3,000 to fix it. I said screw you and take yer bi dd and shove it. I called an independent plumber described the problem -and where and what I thought the problem is. He looked at it,called me back and said yer right. Got fixed for $200. Big difference right ? Would have cost me that much just to get there.

As a start. Do you think that's a good way to go - to begin, at least?

And YES, I totally understand and see your point (i.e, the $3,000 versus the $200 fix). I know that some of these companies will try to take total advantage, especially of someone who doesn't know about construction and building. That's why I want to learn as much as I can.

Another question - because of all of this, I'm going to be facing some repairs and I'd like to do some updating at the same time. New vanities in the bathrooms, new flooring, new kitchen cabinets. I'm assuming that this would all be best done at generally the same time, right? But the plumbing probably the first step.

Thank you!!!!

you thinking bank loan for the repairs/remodel ! You might want to find out first what yer in for with the plumbing issues.
A good plumber can detect leaks and has the equiptment for that if necessary. Also such equipment can be rented and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out how to use it.I would break down your project into phases starting with the plumbing issues.
From there yer bathroom up grade than on to yer kitchen.

Actually hussin ben sober is into the remodel game and has lots of good advice, I'm retired !
I have been remodeling a 80's apartment building now, one unit at a time for about 15 years. New kitchens, new floors ,new bathrooms ,everything new and upgraded, two floor apartments.When I do that the units are empty and stay that way until the work is done ! Nobody is going to be able to stand living in my work ! 7 done,one left to do whenever the tenents move out. Hopefully not to soon, after that I'm done with it all.

The units are down for about 2 months .Since you have to live in it, you might consider one project at a time- spacing it out.

Lots of good advice. I appreciate it! Your project sounds great, and you're lucky you can do it yourself! I'm sure it's not fun when you're dirty, sweaty and tired. But I would guess that beats having to deal with people trying to rip you off and who say they can do things they cannot do.

Sincerely appreciate your input!

Try the plumbing supply place, most of those have plumbers working there. some retired ,some active. You will find they are knowledgeable and helpful with good information. This will help you to better understand what the situation is. That way you won't be blindsided by a plumber at yer home.

You might actually acquire some information an on site plumber hadn't thought of. !
From there on to obtaining estimates.
Be interested to know how it all pans out.

And the apartment building is owned by a client of mine, he's too old to find somebody else to do it even though I'm to old or tired of it !

So he helps and we hire a couple of young guys to do the heavy lifting and dirtiest parts of the dirty work ! Age has it privilege !

This one house I had had copper supply. It didn't leak so much at the fittings, but in the pipes themselves.

It was an old house that originally used a spring house for water in Maryland. It was retrofitted with a well, and copper inside the house.

The problem was acid water. It had a low pH. Copper and aluminum hate it. In fact, glass hates it, but it's more durable.

You can do a pH test of your water to rule this out.... (0.1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12.13.14) You want 7, and 4 is bad.

If it were me and I was having problems under the slab, I would try and bypass/abandon the supply line under the slab. Obviously, the plan would require an alternative route like an attic - which could raise other insulation/freezing issues depending on your climate.

Paying plumbers to do concrete work can get expensive.

It sounds like you have the slab fixed for now. I would deal with the hub leak for now and see what happens.

I wouldn't spend any more money on the slab section except to reroute and abandon it.

The pipes go in and out of the slab unfortunately in several places.

The main line enters the house in the slab, goes along a hallway to the hot water heater and to the hub. If I'm understanding the plumber right, it goes back into the slab to get to the master bathroom which makes NO sense because it's accessible through the hub (i.e., pipe would be out of sight). From the master bath, the pipe goes back into the slab, runs through the living room to the outdoor faucet.

The plumber has been unable to find a leak in the part of the hub that is out of the slab do he feels it's in the slab. Crappy construction.

The cold water coming in might branch off and head to the tub laundry and outdoor faucet... Then continue on to the hot water .... then hot water gets sent back the bath, laundry and kitchen ...hot water only.

Even if you had to re-plumb to your bath and kitchen with all new supply lines to each fixture by cutting through the top wall plate some drywall it would still make more sense than tearing out concrete trenches all over your house.

Think up and over. Not down and through.

New supply could travel through the attic crawl space and branch off (cold) to bath, kitchen, and faucet plus laundry etc. Then off to the hot water heater to supply back to fixtures. I'm assuming no water softener or otherwise everything but outdoor faucet gets treated first.

Holes could be drilled in to top plates of walls from attic/crawl. Copper or, better yet, Pex tubing could be shoved down to fixtures.

If you are REALLY fortunate, you have access through drywall behind at least some of the fixtures or hopefully at least the tub faucet.

You might look for someone who advertises "re piping" - we have them here in Chicago. People like that might tend to be more creative and efficient.

You might get lucky and be able to cut and connect to the bathroom Supply entrance point and keep most of the old copper behind the walls.

Of course I could be talking out my arse because I don't know your layout. Or if you can even use Pex in your town. Or what acces you have in the attic or your climate etc etc.

I'm assuming attic crawl because you are on a slab. Hopefully warm climate or ability to insulate pipes in attic

I haven't watched this whole series but this is an similar to what I'm talking about:

https://m.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I'm in south Texas so freezing pipes in the attic in the winter would not be that much of a worry. It has happened before, but I think they can be insulated????

One question about something that I noticed over the weekend. As to the "hot" water line leak (I'm addressing this subject along as opposed to a part of the entire problem) - - - I notice when I have the hot water line turned ON that there is hot water available IMMEDIATELY at one of the shower heads which is actually the farthest from the hot water heater. At other hot water locations, it takes a few seconds for hot water to be available.

Does this indicate that the hot water leak could possibly be the line to that shower? I'm thinking that a continual drip, drip, drip leak might keep hot water available to that line.

Am I way off base? Or am I possibly on to something pertinent here?

Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect it would be more than a drip. Is that one of the pipes under the slab?

I'm really an idiot about all of this, but I'm learning. Thanks again!

I saw your screen name the other day on another thread and remembered my questions in THIS thread. Just wanted to say "thank you" for all of the valuable information that you provided to me.

I finally got hold of a better plumber and I think (fingers crossed!) that things are fixed this time. I know that I'll never be able to explain the solution because I didn't understand it myself, but the leak WAS in the hot water line only, but water was continuing to leak even when the hot water line was turned off at the hot water heater because of some issue with a Moen faucet. The plumber said he has seen this issue (whatever it was) before with Moen and he found and fixed everything in about an hour.

That's been about 2 months ago and so far, things are holding. If they continue to hold, I'll start reinstall of drywall and flooring right after the first of the year.

Again - just wanted to say thanks. Hope you and your family are well, and will enjoy a tremendous holiday!

Last edited Sat Sep 3, 2016, 05:20 PM - Edit history (5)

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/fix-leaking-pipes-under-slab-foundation-69841.html

It seems bin sober is getting at by-passing the slab in a re plumb of the interior. Since your water bill isn't sky high you can safely assume the pipes/pipe joints coming up through the slab ,going back down into the slab are the problem areas ,so, that's that. Assume than from the meter to the point where the pipes run under the slab ,is good. Meaning a total re plumb may not be necessary. Those pipes were lay ed out by the way before the slab was poured. Looking at it now ,it makes no sense why for and all that . But looking at the plumbing lay out before the slab was poured ,such as will become clear looking at the blue prints, that's it all adds up even though really it is a cheap way of building. 80's construction.Fast and cheap.

By the way how long have you owned the place and how many times has the place turned over ?
I like where bin sober is going with it, it is however a matter of feasibility.That having to do with running the new pipes and fittings within the interior. Once you understand the complications involved -that method of interior re plumb ,than you will understand why the place was plumbed that way. No crawl space,no place to route the pipes.

Example, house with a basement, water line feed comes up to a point in the foundation ,is routed through the concrete and on through the place. The only fitting running through concrete is the at the house feed.

I have found in 80's construction copper pipes running through the studs along a wall ,where the pipes pass through the studs, and more often than not when electrical wiring is close at hand, leaks form over time.Code requires the pipes run through a plastic sleeve inserted into the drilled holes in the 2X 6's .Prior to the code changes in building construction those were 2x 4 's !

You need to get somebody out there that understands the problem and has dwelt with it. If it's a repair ,you will no doubt be breaking concrete every place those pipes come up through the slab. Or the leak will travel to the next location. What you haven't told is what exactly was repaired. Did any of the two fix's require cutting out some of the copper pipe or tubing ? Or were those leaks at the fittings ? This may be a key question. Ever hear any ratteling in the pipes ?

This explains it and give you better insight into where bin sober is going with it. Take a look at the site.

http://plumbinginfo.org/how-to-fix-a-slab-leak/

How to Fix a Slab Leak

By Steve, on August 10th, 2010



This is the item of mention that you can or any plumber can rent.


A slab leak can be one of the more frightening experiences a homeowner has to deal with when it comes to emergency plumbing problems. Actually, that is a bit of a misstatement, because they aren’t usually an emergency at all, although they are often thought of as one.

Quite often a slab leak isn’t even discovered until a homeowner finds themselves with a huge water bill. They will call a plumber out to try to figure out why, and the plumber will inform the homeowner that they have a water line leaking under the slab. That means that the leak has been there for around a month or so already – so much for an emergency.

First of all, I want to let you in on how I used to find leaks under slabs. This might help you, since most pros do it the same way. Obviously the first thing to consider is whether the house is really on a slab. If you don’t know whether your house has a crawl space, just stomp on the floor once. If you get a hollow sound, you have a crawl space, and the leak can be looked for there (once the access is found). If it is solid and unyielding, you are likely on a slab.

The next thing is to try to figure out whether it is the hot or cold water. Simply feeling for hot spots on the floor may be the easiest way to tell. Even if I do not find any hot spots, I will usually turn off the hot water and see if the leak stops. You can usually hear the leak when walking throughout a house. In the rare instance where you cannot, watching the meter will tell you if the leak has stopped or not.

I do need to backtrack a bit. It is very important that you or the plumber check every fixture very thoroughly to make sure that something else is not leaking. I cannot count the times when what others thought was a slab leak, I found was a leaking hose bib, irrigation valve or toilet. Even good plumbers overlook this sometimes. It happens.

If you are lucky enough to have a wet spot or a hot spot on the floor, then you have a bit of a head start. That will usually show you the area of the plumbing leak, but not always. Do not depend on that, however. I have seen leaks that were up to 10 feet away from the only wet spot. Water finds the easiest avenue to escape, so what might seem like a spot where the leak is could easily be the spot where there is a crack in your slab.

The next thing I will usually do is try to map out where the pipes go. I can often do this based on my experience, but it never hurts to actually locate the pipes with an electronic pipe locator. This is not essential, but it makes finding the leak a lot faster, because you only need to look where the pipes are. If you don’t know where the plumbing runs under your slab, you will be “looking” for leaks everywhere, including where there are no pipes.

Next, find the general location. If you don’t have a wet spot or a warm spot, you need to very carefully listen for where the sound is loudest. Listen behind the toilets, under the sinks, etc. The pipes are usually noisiest nearest the leak. Once you have the general area located and know where the pipes are, you can begin the fun part. I have an air compressor (a very quiet one) and an adapter that I made so that I can connect an air hose to an outside hose bib. I keep the compressor in my truck with the doors closed to further minimize the sound. Then I turn the water off at the main and pump air into the line at about 60-80 psi. I try to keep it near the working water pressure of the house, so I don’t force air into the city main. I will go into the house and open up one of the faucets until that faucet starts to spit.

I then turn the faucet off and let the compressor catch up. Some very helpful will happen. The air, mixed will small amounts of water will make a very specific and recognizable sound as it exits the leak. The pipes themselves will burble and such, but there will be a distinct “spitting” sound at the leak. Now you just have to find that sound.

GeophonesI use one of two things when listening for the sound. The one that I use primarily is called a Geophone. You can actually get these (if you are so inclined) from PollardWater. There are also a variety of electronic listening devices on the market. They are a lot more expensive. The Geophone will cost about the same as someone doing leak detection for you, so unless you plan on having a lot of slab leaks, it is probably best to get a pro to find it. Still, it never hurts to know the process, so you are informed.

Once the leak is found, fixing it is really not that hard. It is a bit dangerous though, so I do recommend having this done by a pro. Basically the process starts with removing the flooring; whether it is tile, linoleum, wood, carpet, etc., then using a small jackhammer to remove a section of concrete. I try to keep the hole as small as I can – just big enough to work in. Next, the leak needs to be positively located, and a section of the leaking pipe removed and a new piece tied in. Do not allow someone to “patch” the pipe. The section must be removed and replaced.

bad repair
Don't do this (bad)

Now, let me stop for a second and tell you that this is meant to be done with copper pipe. There are still homes out there that actually have galvanized water piping under their slab. If that is you, I do not recommend trying to repair it. The best course of action in this case is to do what is called a partial or full bypass. That basically means that you need to cut off the flow to some or all of your slab piping and run new pipes overhead. This is usually done within an attic. I have run across homes that do not have attics, at which point I needed to run the pipes on the roof. This is the way it has to be with Eichler homes. In fact, my “falling off the roof” incident happened towards the end of an Eichler re-pipe.

Finally, when the repair is made, I recommend turning the water back on to test before closing up the hole. Once it has been verified that there are no more leaks, I will get rid of the old soil that I took out to get to the pipe and fill with sand. I do this because the old soil is wet and will cause the concrete patch to settle. Sand will be compacted 100%, and will fill in some of the gaps as well that were created by the leak.

Next, you just poor concrete into the hole, level it off and let it cure. I recommend leaving it uncovered for at least 7 days before replacing your floor covering. It sound like a pretty big process to go through – and it is. Different companies in different areas charge different amounts for these, but I use to charge between $2500 and $3800 to find and fix the leak. That included replacing the concrete to “patch” finish.

One final little bit of info for you, and this may be the most helpful part of this article: Check with your insurance company and find out if they will cover you, and if so, what parts they cover. In my area, many of the good homeowner’s insurance companies will pay for the leak location, the tearing out of the flooring and concrete to “access” the leak, and the replacement of the concrete and flooring. Knowing this can really help. The repair of the pipe is the easiest part, and can easily be shown on the invoice to have cost $150 or something, while the rest of it would be covered by your policy. Out of all of the slab leaks I have repaired, I would say that about 80% were covered. They will NOT usually cover a re-pipe however, but that is in my area, yours might be different.












Keep calling around.

Appreciate it!

http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,431511

I couldn't handle that one I don't think!!!! LOL