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PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 01:47 PM Oct 2015

Amish man sues to buy firearm without photo ID in gun rights, religious freedom lawsuit

Lately, Americans have argued both about their right to bear arms and whether the free exercise of religion allows businesses and state officials to claim exemptions from requirements that conflict with their religious beliefs. It’s not everyday, however, that the two issues, guns and religion, wind up together in a single case.

In a suit that brings together the Second Amendment and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), an Amish man filed a federal lawsuit in Pennsylvania last week because he wants to buy a gun without the required photo ID — and because getting that photo ID would violate his religious beliefs.

Andrew Hertzler, according to the suit, is from Lancaster County, Pa., and is an “active and practicing” member of the community; his “parents, grandparents, and siblings are all active and practicing Amish”; and he “has a sincerely held religious belief that prevents him from knowingly and willingly having his photograph taken and stored.”

“The Amish faith prohibits an individual from having his/her photograph taken,” the suit read. “This belief stems from the Biblical passage Exodus 20:4, which mandates that ‘You shall not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth,’ as well as the Christian belief in humility.”

Read the rest at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/27/amish-man-sues-to-buy-firearm-without-photo-id-in-gun-rights-religious-freedom-lawsuit/

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Amish man sues to buy firearm without photo ID in gun rights, religious freedom lawsuit (Original Post) PoliticAverse Oct 2015 OP
I just learned something new gejohnston Oct 2015 #1
And he is correct HassleCat Oct 2015 #2
Such BS Politicalboi Oct 2015 #3
Not really the point. What he's complaining about is the COLGATE4 Oct 2015 #4
The US needs to get its head out of its ass about religious rights and freedom of religion to do RKP5637 Oct 2015 #5
Are you sure they were amish and not 7th dayers or other traditionalists?n/t beevul Oct 2015 #7
mass murder by gun - does that reflect sincerely held religious beliefs as well? nt msongs Oct 2015 #6
How many amish mass murders in the history of the US? beevul Oct 2015 #8
Sound track from an Amish "Drive By" DonP Oct 2015 #13
I'm not going to link to it, however... beevul Oct 2015 #14
On the plus side ... DonP Oct 2015 #16
No, I believe the Amish do as the Canadians do: Drive by shoutings Big_Mike Oct 2015 #19
If the man is a mass murderer then have him arrested. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #9
I thought Amish weren't allow to buy anything that wasn't available before 1900 or thereabouts. denverbill Oct 2015 #10
I don't know about PA law, but gejohnston Oct 2015 #11
There are plenty Flyboy_451 Oct 2015 #12
They're already off the "ID required list". beevul Oct 2015 #15
They generally try to seperate themselves from modern society Travis_0004 Oct 2015 #17
1900? Muzzle-loader? Straw Man Oct 2015 #18
My point is if he's buying an Uzi, I question how deeply held his religious beliefs are. denverbill Oct 2015 #20
I doubt he's buying an Uzi -- most likely it's a hunting rifle or shotgun. Straw Man Oct 2015 #21
OK here is an article on Amish and technology. denverbill Oct 2015 #22
an Uzi would be out gejohnston Oct 2015 #23
What's your point? Straw Man Oct 2015 #24
My point is the point of the entire article. denverbill Oct 2015 #25
You can claim anything you want. branford Oct 2015 #26
It's a thorny legal question. Straw Man Oct 2015 #27
 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
2. And he is correct
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 02:01 PM
Oct 2015

The authorities have all sorts of ways to establish that he is who he says he is. Most Amish have their "English" friends buy firearms for them, but they should not have to resort to the straw man purchase. Their constitutional rights are the same as ours.

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
3. Such BS
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 02:03 PM
Oct 2015

I've seen Amish families going into WalMart. WalMart has camera's. Stay out of WalMart's and any other store that takes your picture then. These religious nuts are just as bad as the gun nuts. And now they want to merge.

How can we continue to pay taxes if our government is willing to side with fairy tales and weak minded people that get to make the rules.

COLGATE4

(14,840 posts)
4. Not really the point. What he's complaining about is the
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 02:13 PM
Oct 2015

government REQUIRING him to have his photo taken - in spite of his religious objections. That doesn't happen in Wal Mart. And remember that the government is required to make reasonable accomodations for his religious beliefs - be they 'fairy tales' or not.

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
5. The US needs to get its head out of its ass about religious rights and freedom of religion to do
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 02:17 PM
Oct 2015

what one damn well pleases. It's ridiculous, ignorant and absurd!

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
8. How many amish mass murders in the history of the US?
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 02:58 PM
Oct 2015

I dare say there were probably some drive by 'stern looks', but mass murders?

I'm thinking probably not.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
13. Sound track from an Amish "Drive By"
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 05:28 PM
Oct 2015

"Clip, clop, clip, clop ... bang ... clip, clop, clip, clop"

(Sorry, too good of a straight line to pass up.)

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
14. I'm not going to link to it, however...
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 05:35 PM
Oct 2015

On youtube, theres a bit about an "amish drug bust" (that's the search term), from a radio morning show.

Its either funny, or offensive, or both.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
16. On the plus side ...
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 06:04 PM
Oct 2015

... at least the Amish won't be calling the radio station to complain.

My brother lives in Eastern PA and is surrounded by Amish.

He says they do a lot of hunting in season and have the best Amish jokes.

Big_Mike

(509 posts)
19. No, I believe the Amish do as the Canadians do: Drive by shoutings
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 04:28 AM
Oct 2015

I've heard many a "you idiot" or "you asshole" when I was up in Toronto. Some times I wasn't even driving

denverbill

(11,489 posts)
10. I thought Amish weren't allow to buy anything that wasn't available before 1900 or thereabouts.
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 03:40 PM
Oct 2015

No electricity, no radio, no TV. I'd say if he wants to buy a muzzle-loader, we take those off the 'ID required' list.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
11. I don't know about PA law, but
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 03:51 PM
Oct 2015

the Gun Control Act doesn't consider muzzle loaders to be "firearms".

Flyboy_451

(230 posts)
12. There are plenty
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 04:38 PM
Oct 2015

Of cartridge guns available prior to 1900, including revolvers, bolt action and lever action rifles, and I think, but not sure, semi-autos as well.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
17. They generally try to seperate themselves from modern society
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 09:26 PM
Oct 2015

For example, they can have a phone, but it would be located across the street from their house. If they need to make a phone call for business, they can, but they won't be temped to use it 24/7 like we do with cell phones.

Either way, I don't have a problem with this request. I'm sure it can be accommodated.

Straw Man

(6,771 posts)
18. 1900? Muzzle-loader?
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 12:28 AM
Oct 2015
I thought Amish weren't allow to buy anything that wasn't available before 1900 or thereabouts.

No electricity, no radio, no TV. I'd say if he wants to buy a muzzle-loader, we take those off the 'ID required' list.

Breech-loading firearms using metallic cartridges date back to the 1840s. Twenty years later, you had repeating firearms: six-shot revolvers and lever action rifles at first, and later bolt-action rifles and pump shotguns. Semi-auto firearms popped up as prototypes in the 1880s but weren't introduced to the commercial market until the first decade of the twentieth century.

denverbill

(11,489 posts)
20. My point is if he's buying an Uzi, I question how deeply held his religious beliefs are.
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 12:31 PM
Oct 2015

You can't claim to have a deeply held religious belief that forbids someone taking your picture, and use that as a means around a legal requirement to buy something which goes against that same religion's tenets. You can't exactly claim a deeply held belief if a religion has 10 commandments and you routinely break 3-4 of them.

From what I have read, beliefs among the Amish do vary widely and some actually use modern technology to a degree. 1900 was just a SWAG. The Amish have been in America since the early 1800's, and clearly, muzzle-loaders were available then and Uzi's were not. Whether not they would be allowed to use cartridges or magazines or revolvers, I don't know.

Maybe someone who is Amish can reply to this, if they happen to be browsing DU on their cellphone.

Straw Man

(6,771 posts)
21. I doubt he's buying an Uzi -- most likely it's a hunting rifle or shotgun.
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 12:40 PM
Oct 2015
My point is if he's buying an Uzi, I question how deeply held his religious beliefs are.

You can't claim to have a deeply held religious belief that forbids someone taking your picture, and use that as a means around a legal requirement to buy something which goes against that same religion's tenets.

And I'm telling you that he's not going against his religion's tenets, at least not as you have defined them.

denverbill

(11,489 posts)
22. OK here is an article on Amish and technology.
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 01:19 PM
Oct 2015

As I believe I did say earlier, all Amish don't believe the same thing. Some use telephones. Some use electricity. Some adopted phones early on, then rejected them. It is apparently up to the Ordnung to decide what is acceptable and what is not.

So if the Ordnung has determined Uzi's, or semi-automatic rifles or pistols, or specific types of shotguns to be against the Ordnung, and this person is using his status as an Amish person to justify a religious exemption to buy a weapon, the weapon has to comply with the Ordnung or he shouldn't be allowed to buy it.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/06/22/amish.tech.brende/

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
23. an Uzi would be out
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 01:58 PM
Oct 2015

especially if we are talking about REAL Uzi and not the semi auto "pistol" that is kind of useless beyond beyond being a range toy. I'm not saying they should be banned, I'm saying I wouldn't buy one.

I found a photo of Amish girls shooting what looks semi auto .22s. Since PA is the only state that doesn't allow hunting with semi automatics, and they don't believe in self defense, I'm guessing they are bolt or lever action rifles. Maybe some type of single shot, but those are hard to find.

Straw Man

(6,771 posts)
24. What's your point?
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 02:21 PM
Oct 2015
So if the Ordnung has determined Uzi's, or semi-automatic rifles or pistols, or specific types of shotguns to be against the Ordnung, and this person is using his status as an Amish person to justify a religious exemption to buy a weapon, the weapon has to comply with the Ordnung or he shouldn't be allowed to buy it.

Since you have no idea what his community's Ordnung is, you have no idea whether he's violating it. Yes, it's possible he is, but it seems to me that he would be reluctant to push the issue and bring attention to himself if he were.

denverbill

(11,489 posts)
25. My point is the point of the entire article.
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 03:57 PM
Oct 2015

Should a person be able to be exempted from a legal requirement because of a religious belief.

I'm an agnostic Methodist, but if he can claim this, why shouldn't I suddenly claim to have a deeply held religious belief that doesn't allow me to get a photo ID and that I should still get to buy a gun. How about people who don't have photo IDs for voting? Can they claim to have a religious belief that prohibits a photo ID and still vote, even without proving that they actually are deeply religious? The right to vote is equally enshrined in the Constitution with the right to bear arms, and I certainly think it's a lot safer to allow someone to vote without a photo ID than to let them buy a gun without one.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
26. You can claim anything you want.
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 04:20 PM
Oct 2015

We have an entire body of jurisprudence, both on the federal and state levels, on the nature and extent of accommodation for religious practice and belief under generally applicable laws, regardless of whether the issue is firearms, voting, drug use, health insurance and contraception, or anything else. It is a particularized and fact specific determination based on the beliefs of the objector and law itself. However, the general disdain of religious practice and/or gun ownership by you or others is not a determining factor in any analysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/06/30/the-hobby-lobby-majority-summarized-in-relatively-plain-english/

http://volokh.com/2013/12/02/1a-religious-freedom-restoration-act/

http://volokh.com/2013/12/02/hobby-lobby-employer-mandate-religious-exemptions/

Straw Man

(6,771 posts)
27. It's a thorny legal question.
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 04:21 PM
Oct 2015
Should a person be able to be exempted from a legal requirement because of a religious belief.

What makes you think there's an easy answer? Many factors have to be considered. You certainly can't claim, in the absence of an established religious community with a history of certain belief patterns, that your "deeply held religious belief" should exempt you from legal requirements.

It's a question of balancing the rights of the individual with the safety of society. There are certainly ways to establish identity without photo IDs. New York State driver's license didn't have photos until the 1990s. What did we do before that?

You were suggesting some kind of inconsistency of belief in your posts about the Uzi and the Ordnung. I don't see it, and you have not made a compelling case that it exists.
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