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Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 05:58 PM Dec 2015

The costs and consequences of gun control

As I detailed in articles in early November, federal proposals and recently-enacted state laws about “universal background checks” are a bait-and-switch. Instead of applying to only the private sale of firearms, they also impose onerous, impractical restrictions on short-term loans and returns. These have enormously destructive effects on safety training and self-defense, on safe storage, and on informal target shooting. Further, they indirectly impose handgun prohibition on adults aged 18 to 20.

Instead of ineffective measures which do much more harm than good, the better approach is laws which can enhance public safety while respecting individual rights. Pretend “gun free zones” (which are enforced only by signage, rather than by metal detectors) have been proven to be magnets for psychopaths, and they should be repealed. The Cato papers lists some of the instances in which armed persons have thwarted a criminal intent on mass murder.

By far the single most effective step we could take to reduce violent crime would be to greatly increase spending to help the severely mentally ill. The biggest crime reduction would be fewer crimes against the mentally ill, since they are more vulnerable than the general population, and are victimized at a much higher rate. The mass murderers in Tucson and Aurora could have been committed for observation and treatment under existing state laws, with due process protections, but people who knew about the danger failed to take the appropriate steps. More broadly, there are many persons with severe mental illness who voluntarily seek temporary hospitalization, but who are turned away due to insufficient treatment capacity. Greater spending to help the mentally ill today will more than pay for itself in the long run, by reducing criminal justice and incarceration costs. (The mental health issue is addressed in greater detail in my forthcoming article in Howard Law Journal.)


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/12/01/the-costs-and-consequences-of-gun-control/

This is an excellent article that I thought you all might enjoy.

42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The costs and consequences of gun control (Original Post) Kang Colby Dec 2015 OP
pretty one sided if you ask me - every murder committed by a gun is not patsimp Dec 2015 #1
No, but 67% of "gun deaths" are suicides. N/t Kang Colby Dec 2015 #2
not the 20 or so from today in California patsimp Dec 2015 #3
Oh, do you know what they were already? DonP Dec 2015 #4
and what will the Gun Lovers do once they know the exact numbers of innocent people killed? patsimp Dec 2015 #5
What'll they do? They'll go back to laughing at gun control groups DonP Dec 2015 #6
and continue your support for terrorists patsimp Dec 2015 #7
How the hell does calling someone a terrorist get left here? MaggieD Dec 2015 #8
That lot *really* don't like it when their obvious political inefficacy is noted friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #10
I guess some people believe in the first amendment patsimp Dec 2015 #14
"I did not call anyone here a terrorist" You falsely claimed a DUer supported terrorism friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #15
i was responding to maggied's "How the hell does calling someone a terrorist get left here?" patsimp Dec 2015 #16
You're dodging the issue. You libeled another DUer, and are now waffling about it friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #20
and you're making stuff up. But that's what the gun lobby does too. patsimp Dec 2015 #21
What have I made up? It is incontrovertable that you libeled DonP friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #32
scary that people who are so easily offended have access to guns patsimp Dec 2015 #35
What's really scary is... discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2015 #36
More scary is that false accusations such as yours are tolerated here friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #37
The first amendment restricts only government. beevul Dec 2015 #18
let's see if this doesn't go over your head patsimp Dec 2015 #24
It would help if you stated something which were true. beevul Dec 2015 #25
like i said about going over your head patsimp Dec 2015 #27
Nope. beevul Dec 2015 #29
IMO, there is special dispensation given to the prohibition crowd... Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #9
Feh. DonP is a far better Democrat (and DUer) than the likes of you could ever hope to be friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #11
on what basis do you think i don't GOTV? patsimp Dec 2015 #17
I asked what you have done about it. DonP has, and has written about it at DU. Also: friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #19
the 'likes of you', nothing libelous there or aggressive patsimp Dec 2015 #22
And yet again you dodged a direct question... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #33
you seem to be very good at asking but never answering anything or addressing anything patsimp Dec 2015 #34
"(I)f you believe that gun control will not stop..." Please keep your words out of my mouth friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #38
like i said you can't answer a question patsimp Dec 2015 #41
OK, gun control will stop some of the violence but not all of it friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #42
Oooh, I forgot to add "inarticulate" as well DonP Dec 2015 #12
This is why we win.. virginia mountainman Dec 2015 #13
gun lovers know what its like to be petulant. patsimp Dec 2015 #23
Same meme the NRA trotted out right after Sandy Hook RandySF Dec 2015 #26
Yup, 20 years and gun control has accomplished nothing and keep using the Evil NRA as an excuse DonP Dec 2015 #28
"activist gardening". BwAAHAH! Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #31
^^^Wow. Drop the mic. Kang Colby Dec 2015 #39
"activist gardening" discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2015 #40
 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
4. Oh, do you know what they were already?
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 07:01 PM
Dec 2015

Gang fighting? Terror? General criminal activity?

You have no idea what happened yet beyond a shooting, not even how many were killed.

You might want to show some common decency and wait until the blood is cleaned up and they actually know something, before you start with the agenda driven comments.

patsimp

(915 posts)
5. and what will the Gun Lovers do once they know the exact numbers of innocent people killed?
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:13 PM
Dec 2015

The Gun Loving game is disgusting - have your moments of silence and do nothing. What cowards.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
6. What'll they do? They'll go back to laughing at gun control groups
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:26 PM
Dec 2015

Because all you do is talk and whine while they organize, lobby legislators, attend town halls and pay dues out of their own pocket to support what they believe in. How much of your own money and time have you put into gun control?

No gun control infrastructure to achieve legislative objectives. Weak judicial representation. No real grass roots support

All your gun control eggs are in the basket of a racist 1%er that pays all the bills and has a track record for losing Dem seats in elections.

That's why nobody has to take gun control seriously. You can't get anything done in the courts or in the legislatures.

But let me guess, you're another one that suddenly loves the Bush/Cheney Secret Terrah No Fly Watch list and wants it to be used to stop any firearm purchase? (Even though it has no due process and senior ACLU people and the senior editorial staff from Mother Jones on it.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
8. How the hell does calling someone a terrorist get left here?
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:50 PM
Dec 2015

I'm disgusted.

On Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:32 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

and continue your support for terrorists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=182254

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Disagreeing with someone on policy is not "support for terrorists" In the face of what happened in California today, this is over the top

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:43 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Easy hide.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I hate to hide but it is a thoughtless, nonconstructed response to the very real very sad point that gunhumpers are far more organized and motivated than we are

Next time, offer a counter on how we can organize, dude.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
10. That lot *really* don't like it when their obvious political inefficacy is noted
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:56 AM
Dec 2015

And as you can see from that and many other examples, they tend to act out...

patsimp

(915 posts)
16. i was responding to maggied's "How the hell does calling someone a terrorist get left here?"
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:50 PM
Dec 2015

which says that I called someone a terrorist

but let's not talk about the victims of gun violence, but let's continue to attack people trying to do something about it.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
20. You're dodging the issue. You libeled another DUer, and are now waffling about it
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:09 PM
Dec 2015

What have *you* done about gun violence that didn't involve a keyboard and an Internet
connection?

Added on edit, in case that poster self-deletes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172182219#post7

and continue your support for terrorists


discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,578 posts)
36. What's really scary is...
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 08:13 PM
Dec 2015

...that you equate "offended" with "homicidal". :shrug"

Make no mistake, everyone has access to guns and various other means of murder.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
18. The first amendment restricts only government.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:54 PM
Dec 2015

You're on a private website, so amendment 1 does not apply.

Civics 101.

patsimp

(915 posts)
24. let's see if this doesn't go over your head
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 08:04 PM
Dec 2015

the 2nd amendment applies to well regulated militias.

the republican cronies on the supreme court and the nra have argued the opposite.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
25. It would help if you stated something which were true.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 08:28 PM
Dec 2015
the 2nd amendment applies to well regulated militias.


No. The second amendment applies to government, just like the first amendment does.


Again, civics 101.
 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
29. Nope.
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:54 AM
Dec 2015

But they CAN decide whats not allowed on their own property, just like Skinner can decide whats not allowed on DU.

You have no business talking about whats going over whos head, until you have wrapped your head around fundamental constitutional function in America.

Start with this: The constitution authorizes and empowers federal government, the bill of rights on the other hand restricts federal government.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
30. IMO, there is special dispensation given to the prohibition crowd...
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 04:39 PM
Dec 2015

Again, imo, and in further elaboration, this special dispensation allows Full-Time gun postings in two groups and one Forum.

Some may believe that terms of service may be fully corrupted, and rules against attacks and smears applied with systematic discrimination, but you be the judge.

Have you heard any comments in DU GD about Penis© lately? For some, whipping out this metaphor is a favorite, but it's only my considered and respectul opinion.

Response to patsimp (Reply #7)

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
11. Feh. DonP is a far better Democrat (and DUer) than the likes of you could ever hope to be
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 03:00 AM
Dec 2015

When was the last time (if *ever*) you showed up at a local meeting? Or worked to GOTV?

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
19. I asked what you have done about it. DonP has, and has written about it at DU. Also:
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:04 PM
Dec 2015

In your own words, what has DonP done to support terrorists?

Making trenchant observations that you don't like doesn't count...

patsimp

(915 posts)
34. you seem to be very good at asking but never answering anything or addressing anything
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 07:17 PM
Dec 2015

if you believe that gun control will not stop the gun violence, do you have any suggestions that will?

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
13. This is why we win..
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:06 AM
Dec 2015

Keep calling names like a petulant child. It won't help change the fact that the voters are clearly not wasting time on gun control.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
28. Yup, 20 years and gun control has accomplished nothing and keep using the Evil NRA as an excuse
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:08 PM
Dec 2015

Pretty pathetic excuse for a "movement". Keep using the "Mighty/Evil/Wicked NRA" as an excuse for your failure again and again. You need to just own the fail and move on to something else that might actually work. Or just keep hitting your head on that wall.

(At least violent crime continues to fall, or do you believe the FBI is a shill for the NRA too?)

Heck, you have multiple billionaires backing gun control, sure a few are racist pigs, but still a virtually unlimited checkbook.

According to you 90% of voters agree with you and there are fewer gun owners every year. So, why don't they ever seem to show up at the polls and sweep in all new gun control supporting legislators? NRA slash their car tires on election day?

The major media outlets are big gun control fans too and you still can't get people motivated to even show up at town hall and zoning meetings on new gun shops and shooting ranges in their own towns.

And after all this time there still is no gun control grass roots movement, no dues paying membership, other than a lot of online whining, name calling and and a really disquieting, middle school level obsession with the penii of gun owners.

And you still keep using the same feeble excuse that the "NRA owns congress", even the Dems from purple and blue states too I guess.

Geez, if as many people really supported you as you keep claiming, you'd think in 20 years somebody could have started the ball rolling and repealed concealed carry in at least one blue state, started petitions to repeal the 2nd amendment, something, anything?

Maybe you guys should all switch to something like "activist gardening" instead. At least then you'll have some beans and peppers once in a while. Unless you keep drifting away like you do on gun control, then the garden will die too.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,578 posts)
40. "activist gardening"
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 10:14 PM
Dec 2015

In my teens in participated in an agricultural learn lab/summer camp. I'm was a city kid but I was into rural stuff and camping as well. I'm not good with plants to this day. At this 'camp' we worked with a partner, two to a plot for the gardening portion. At the beginning my plot had a few vines mixed into 150 square feet of 2 foot high weeds. At the end of the first week our monitor graded my partner and I the best at weeding but we only got 1 out of a possible 4 points for that exercise for that week. I asked why. He answered, "You did well and have no weeds at all. You don't have anything growing either."

Some of the control folks remind me of that experience. The controllers are so focused on removal they target everything, good, bad, doesn't matter. It all has to go.

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