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SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Wed May 25, 2016, 06:24 AM May 2016

Stand your ground against gun violence

Missouri Governor Jay Nixon has a life or death decision to make.

Last week the state’s legislature passed a bill that would dramatically increase the rights of gun owners in the state. The legislation now awaits Nixon’s signature — or his veto.

If Nixon signs the bill, he will practically be ensuring that more Missouri residents will die from gun violence.

In other states that have passed stand your ground laws, the results have been clear: More people have been killed by guns. According to one recent study by the group Mayors Against Illegal Guns, states with stand your ground laws “have experienced increased rates of overall homicides, firearm-related homicides, and ‘justifiable homicides.’” Indeed, “justifiable homicides increased by 53 percent in states with stand your ground laws, while decreasing by 5 percent in states without these laws.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/05/24/stand-your-ground-against-gun-violence/O66S7yY0TEZh01MOvfBZOK/story.html

14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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ileus

(15,396 posts)
2. Blood in the Streets! BLOOD in the STREETS!!!! Or not...
Wed May 25, 2016, 07:06 AM
May 2016

I can't believe the same talking points are still being spewed out over and over...what a dunce, but he knows his readership, they'll bite on anything.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
3. "Justifiable homicides increased by 53 percent"
Wed May 25, 2016, 08:49 AM
May 2016

Umm, a justifiable homicide isn't a crime, which is why it is called "justifiable."

sarisataka

(21,000 posts)
4. Not to the true control mentality,
Wed May 25, 2016, 09:16 AM
May 2016

Justifiable homicide, to such, is simply murder.

Many times we have seen it posted here that people who use a gun in self-defense should be charged with murder if the criminal dies. If the criminal happens to survive it has often been posted "they both should be in jail."

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
5. "It's only about stuff" How many times have we heard that lie?
Wed May 25, 2016, 09:22 AM
May 2016

We had another one just last week or so, that thought shooting home invaders, even if they are armed, was a crime and deserved prosecution. Because, well; "Is your flat screen worth a life?"

But it's a free country and if they choose to roll the dice and trust their lives and family to the tender mercies of home invaders, it's their choice.

But ... they don't get to choose for the rest of us and that's what really pisses them off.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
7. I read the study of stand-your-ground laws that is cited in the article
Wed May 25, 2016, 10:04 AM
May 2016

And the authors concluded that SYG laws resulted in an increase in homicides of white males but no increase in homicides of minorities, which I thought interesting. The authors also noted that the increase in homicide rates may in fact be due to justifiable homicides but did not reach any conclusion one way or the other on that issue:

It may be argued that the increase in homicides might largely be driven by killings that are justified by the SYG laws, i.e., deaths that occur while law-abiding citizens are protecting themselves from intruders or attackers, and that this should not be viewed as a negative outcome. It is indeed possible that additional homicides associated with the SYG law may partly be driven by the killings of assailants. However, note that the net rise in homicides cannot be accounted by a one-to-one substitution between the killings of assailants and the killings of victims unless multiple assailants are killed in some instances (Cheng and Hoekstra, 2012). If at least some of the additional homicides are due to individuals resorting to the use of deadly force against each other in situations where the threat of death or serious bodily injury is not imminent to either party, this could indicate that these laws impose serious costs not only on criminals both also private citizens as well.


The study itself had some fairly interesting information, such as:

In our opinion, it is the provision of “no duty to retreat at any place a person has a legal right to be” that is the controversial aspect of these laws and also the one that has received much of the attention recently. In fact, the other provisions like no duty to retreat at home, also known as the Castle Doctrine, have been part of the common law for decades almost everywhere and individuals have rarely been prosecuted for using deadly force in self-defense in their homes.


There have also been examples cited in support of the desirable impact of these laws. For example, a woman with a known history of prostitution killed a client with his own gun when he had threatened to kill her. The murder charge against the woman, who could have been prosecuted under the old law, was dropped because of Florida’s newly enacted SYG law (Lake, 2006).


The average monthly homicide counts are 16.8 in non-SYG states and 24.2 in SYG states. The homicide rate is also higher among SYG states with 0.375 deaths per month per 100,000 residents deaths compared to non-SYG states, which have an average homicide rate of 0.292 per month per 100,000 residents. Of the 6,732 state-month-year observations, 729 (10.8 percent) are zeros due to no homicides committed during those months. The largest homicide count is observed in California, a non-SYG state, with 198 deaths in September 2002. The largest number of homicides among our SYG states was observed in Texas in May 2009 with 106 homicides. If we consider homicide rates per population rather than homicide counts, then the largest homicide rate was observed in District of Columbia, again a non-SYG state, in July 2002 with 2.27 homicides per 100,000 residents. Among the SYG states, the largest homicide rate was in Louisiana in July 2009 with 0.66 homicides per 100,000 residents. Table 2 also shows that SYG and non-SYG states differ in several observable characteristics. In particular, SYG states have a higher percentage of black population, more likely to have a Republican governor, a higher incarceration rate and a larger number of law enforcement agents. These states also tend to be more urban, and have a higher poverty rate.
I added emphasis here.

Here's the link to the paper - http://www.nber.org/papers/w18187.pdf

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
14. the study got one thing wrong
Wed May 25, 2016, 06:40 PM
May 2016

California is a SYG state by common law. It has been SYG since before any of our grandparents were born. It is unusual in that not only can you stand your ground, you can pursue the attacker as part of your defense.
http://lawofselfdefense.com/jury_instruction/ca-505-justifiable-homicide-self-defense-or-defense-of-another/

I'm going to take a wild guess that the study assumes if there isn't a SYG statute, that it must be DTR. That isn't always the case.
http://volokh.com/2013/07/17/duty-to-retreat/

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
6. Weren't the very low numbers of justifiable gun homicides JUST used by the VPC
Wed May 25, 2016, 09:26 AM
May 2016

to show the uselessness of CCWs??


"Washington, DC — New research from the Violence Policy Center (VPC) confirms that contrary to what the firearms industry and gun lobby claim, private citizens rarely use guns to kill criminals or stop crimes.

The study finds that in 2013, the most recent year for which data is available, there were only 211 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the SHR. Twenty states reported zero justifiable homicides in 2013. That year, there were 7,838 criminal firearm homicides.

The study also finds only a tiny fraction of the intended victims of violent crime or property crime employ guns for self-defense. Over a three-year period from 2012 to 2014, less than one percent of victims of attempted or completed violent crimes used a firearm, and only 0.2 percent of victims of attempted or completed property crimes used a firearm."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/126210633

http://www.vpc.org/press/self-defense-gun-use-is-rare-new-vpc-study-confirms/


While in 2012, a bump in rate of 1 extra homicide in a million found justifiable is the cause for all kinds of alarms.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
9. What's your problem?
Wed May 25, 2016, 03:34 PM
May 2016

Whenever I want info on Missouri I always go by what the Massachusetts newspapers have to report.



Is that a rifle in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
11. "The bore! I can't forget the bore!"
Wed May 25, 2016, 04:12 PM
May 2016


At least he wasn't aiming a '65 Dodge Coronet. I think MSM is sporting with us, now.
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