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sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 08:10 AM Nov 2017

The GOP has destroyed truth in American public debate ("America is facing an epistemic crisis")

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

This is perhaps the best -- and most important -- article I have read all year. Because it gets at the root cause of our current democratic crisis.

America is facing an epistemic crisis
What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter?


Say Mueller reveals hard proof that the Trump campaign knowingly colluded with Russia, strategically using leaked emails to hurt Clinton’s campaign. Say the president — backed by the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Fox News, Breitbart, most of the US Cabinet, half the panelists on CNN, most of the radio talk show hosts in the country, and an enormous network of Russian-paid hackers and volunteer shitposters working through social media — rejects the evidence.

...

In short, what if Mueller proves the case and it’s not enough? What if there is no longer any evidentiary standard that could overcome the influence of right-wing media?



The US conservative movement’s rejection of the mainstream institutions devoted to gathering and disseminating knowledge (journalism, science, the academy) — the ones society has appointed as referees in matters of factual dispute.

In their place, the right has created its own parallel set of institutions, most notably its own media ecosystem.

But the right’s institutions are not of the same kind as the ones they seek to displace. Mainstream scientists and journalists see themselves as beholden to values and standards that transcend party or faction. They try to separate truth from tribal interests and have developed various guild rules and procedures to help do that. They see themselves as neutral arbiters, even if they do not always uphold that ideal in practice.

But the right did not want better neutral arbiters. The institutions it built scarcely made any pretense of transcending faction; they are of and for the right. There is nominal separation of conservative media from conservative politicians, think tanks, and lobbyists, but in practice, they are all part of the conservative movement. They are prosecuting its interests; that is the ur-goal.

Indeed, the far right rejects the very idea of neutral, binding arbiters; there is only Us and Them.


As Brian Beutler wrote in a scathing piece recently, the mainstream media has never learned to deal with the right-wing bubble — it has not learned how not to take bad-faith lies seriously.

And now we will all reap the consequences.



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The GOP has destroyed truth in American public debate ("America is facing an epistemic crisis") (Original Post) sharedvalues Nov 2017 OP
Thanks for posting. ariadne0614 Nov 2017 #1
It's a good thing that is a figure of speech. n/t rzemanfl Nov 2017 #6
During the early days of the "Cuban missle crissis in 1962 ", ladjf Nov 2017 #2
I've been playing that story in my head since Trump was elected. I love JFK. nt Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #5
Since Reagan was elected... IthinkThereforeIAM Nov 2017 #12
You are preaching to the choir. I am aware of what the Dulles brothers did. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #13
Well, then... IthinkThereforeIAM Nov 2017 #18
Yes if we told the entire Dulles story, we would be run off the forum. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #19
Terrifying. Thanks? Shanti Mama Nov 2017 #3
Extremely important read/point being made. I am sure - hope! - many of us here realize it. NRaleighLiberal Nov 2017 #4
Read this. Read this. Read this. Read It...Read It...Read It... n/t TygrBright Nov 2017 #7
I read this yesterday, and it confirms my worst-case scenario. cos dem Nov 2017 #8
Corporate media is much more interested in controversy and horse races than truth. Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2017 #9
People have been trained to accept switcheroos & gish-gallops as part of media discourse. Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2017 #10
Even with all facts and/or evidence is presented DK504 Nov 2017 #11
This article shows why: bc right wing media lies to them sharedvalues Nov 2017 #21
Iraq war hibbing Nov 2017 #14
Here's an even longer article on the same topic by the same author Fiendish Thingy Nov 2017 #15
Rove said it back in the Bush years: "We create our own reality." dgauss Nov 2017 #16
George Lakoff and Paul Krugman were shouting about it sharedvalues Nov 2017 #22
I agree - think it's at the root of the malaise I feel that started with Bush's 2 bagelsforbreakfast Nov 2017 #17
... raven mad Nov 2017 #20

ariadne0614

(1,877 posts)
1. Thanks for posting.
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 08:29 AM
Nov 2017

I read this in the dark before dawn this morning. It made my blood run cold.

ladjf

(17,320 posts)
2. During the early days of the "Cuban missle crissis in 1962 ",
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 08:29 AM
Nov 2017

the Secretary of State was dispatched to Paris to inform De Gaulle of the situation.

"To illustrate America’s past credibility, Kerry related an anecdote about the French president, Charles de Gaulle:


We can remember when President Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis sent his secretary of state to Paris to meet with de Gaulle. And in the middle of the discussion, to tell them about the missiles in Cuba, he said, "Here, let me show you the photos." And de Gaulle waved them off and said, "No, no, no, no. The word of the president of the United States is good enough for me."

Imagine anyone today making such a statement about Trump's word.

IthinkThereforeIAM

(3,115 posts)
12. Since Reagan was elected...
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 10:52 AM
Nov 2017

... I was a senior in high school, and even then I could see the subterfuge. And as a reminder:

" In 1948 Dulles and Wisner officially created Operation MOCKINGBIRD by raising Reich’s minister of Propaganda and Public Enlightenment, Paul Josef Goebbels’ Nazi mass media propaganda machine in America. "

https://amunaor.com/2012/09/08/blowback-reinhard-gehlen-nazi-father-cia-dont-look-back/

Irish_Dem

(59,523 posts)
13. You are preaching to the choir. I am aware of what the Dulles brothers did.
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 10:59 AM
Nov 2017

They damaged America a great deal.

IthinkThereforeIAM

(3,115 posts)
18. Well, then...
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 04:46 PM
Nov 2017

... you know that and I know that, but THEY don't know that. Glad I wasn't labeled a heretic, ha

Irish_Dem

(59,523 posts)
19. Yes if we told the entire Dulles story, we would be run off the forum.
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 04:50 PM
Nov 2017

Some of the truth is too hard to hear and heart breaking.

Shanti Mama

(1,288 posts)
3. Terrifying. Thanks?
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 08:32 AM
Nov 2017

Seriously, thank you. Excellent article, though I hate to think about this possibility.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,560 posts)
4. Extremely important read/point being made. I am sure - hope! - many of us here realize it.
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 09:12 AM
Nov 2017

thanks for posting.

cos dem

(916 posts)
8. I read this yesterday, and it confirms my worst-case scenario.
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 10:24 AM
Nov 2017

I really fear the only way out is for people to suffer the fate they brought on themselves. Nothing like seeing pain up close to bring you back to reality. If we have to go that route, it will not be pretty. I hope this country emerges alive on the other side of this mess, because in my darkest fears, it does not.

Bernardo de La Paz

(51,205 posts)
9. Corporate media is much more interested in controversy and horse races than truth.
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 10:32 AM
Nov 2017

They would rather entertain with "news" than edify and elucidate with facts.

They generate controversy when they can (making "news" ), and create the appearance of controversy when there is little.

They gin up horse races when rationally there should not be one. That's why Trump got $1 Billion in free media exposure and took the RepubliCON nomination.

Bernardo de La Paz

(51,205 posts)
10. People have been trained to accept switcheroos & gish-gallops as part of media discourse.
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 10:36 AM
Nov 2017

Critical thinking has been systematically degraded over four decades. People no longer expect it or want guidance with it. Many are not able to even exercise it.

Confirmation bias has been fostered on the right. Sorry to have to say it, but it fits with religious belief and reflexive patriotism.

DK504

(3,847 posts)
11. Even with all facts and/or evidence is presented
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 10:42 AM
Nov 2017

it seems 40% of Americans don't believe it. From legal cases to climate change, facts don't matter any longer.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
21. This article shows why: bc right wing media lies to them
Sun Nov 5, 2017, 09:24 AM
Nov 2017

And the article goes into greater depth about how the right has systematically undermined all sources of neutral truth - media, science, journalism.


And now all the right wing lying press is deployed in service of tax cuts for billionaires.

hibbing

(10,402 posts)
14. Iraq war
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 11:12 AM
Nov 2017

I would like to see a poll taken today to see how many Americans think it was Iraqis that attacked NYC. I would imagine it would be pretty high. That does not happen by mistake.


Peace

dgauss

(1,139 posts)
16. Rove said it back in the Bush years: "We create our own reality."
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 11:48 AM
Nov 2017

It wasn't taken seriously enough. It was treated as a figure of speech or some kind of metaphor, but it was an admission of an actual strategy and we are living with the consequences of that strategy.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
22. George Lakoff and Paul Krugman were shouting about it
Sun Nov 5, 2017, 09:25 AM
Nov 2017

But no one listened.

Krugman was writing about propaganda from conservatives since 2000. His colleagues in the NYT news section didn’t pay attention till 2016, and they still haven’t fully embraced the problems.

 

bagelsforbreakfast

(1,427 posts)
17. I agree - think it's at the root of the malaise I feel that started with Bush's 2
Sat Nov 4, 2017, 12:10 PM
Nov 2017

terms... DT might have been right about shooting people in Times Square. If he did, you can bet CNN would have a panel of half Republican stooges on to give it a false equivalency.

Wolf Blitzer would be perpetually perplexed.

And as far as FOX and the RW radio crowd, it would be the victim's fault.

It's hard to be optimistic in such circumstances.

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