I am a middle aged white person and I come from Western PA. I can't understand or feel what you go through but I fight against constant racism from my own family members. I hate it and feel sick at my stomach by what they say and think.

of white supremacy will influence powerfully the thinking of many.

I am glad that some can think for themselves and see through the brainwashing.

I would like to share it too, AND I have racist AF family and friends in Western PA.

I'm originally from western PA also and some of the things my uncles would say made my skin crawl... What gives?
When they first came over on the boat they were discriminated against also.. You'd think they would be more sensitive to that...
m

i noticed the rightwing goofs, talking about the footballer who say he no stand for flag etc due to nudge-wink racism that is so prevalent in society, well i noticed they supported the footballer, if only thanks to his courage etc. Not long ago, they woulda yelled 'pc pc PC'! and skipover idea that racists are basically giggling into their mint juleps.....as we speak! The real issue is education, and a mass media that explains why racism is a bad thing (to begin with) and the horrific cost of racism, not to mention- recall Scrooge being shown two 3rd world kids in 'A Xmas Carol" and their names 'ignorance and want'- how it is creating ISIS and suicide bombing etc! I believe a tipping point is fast approaching where the earth biosphere is being dried out too fast; one day a forest fire is gonna set fire to the very air we breathe! Anyway, humanity is a jam, and racism don't help. The mass media can barely hide its brute fascism, which ignorance nurtures. the two people you confronted were trying to be positive on an issue they were sorta exploring, maybe for first time. History is a disgrace to the racists, but ....at least 'Tarzan' was a disasterous failure!

I feel have reached certain ecological environmental 'tipping points'. Social? We shall see in the coming months, more than likely.

They wouldn't be selling the losers of conflicts if there wasn't a market. The buyers bear the blame.

I'm a 48 year old male. I cannot believe how vocal white people have gotten since PBO was elected. They've always been there, they've just replaced the dog whistles with bullhorns. I domtry to shame them when I see them, though.

I'm old enough to remember the Jim Crow south and the ingrained social racism of the north, when there were Americans and then those other people over there with brown and black skin whose families were "brought over" (the nasty euphemism) from Africa. It was like there were two separate species here, the children of former slaves and everybody else.

People who are old enough to remember that world usually focus on how much progress has been made, from apartheid to at least a grudging acceptance of black faces among neighbors and coworkers and fellow diners in restaurants, if not friends as yet. I understand them even if I'm one of the malcontents who thinks real change won't happen until faces of all colors are recognized as Americans with no qualification as to what flavor.

The real problem with such people is that they usually think they gave you that progress. They didn't. You grabbed it with your own hands. I can remember all of that, too.

So I'm old enough to see that progress has been made. I'm just not a big enough fool to think I'm the one who made it. So if I mention it, cut me a little slack. I'm old and I remember when the country was a lot meaner than it is.

Contemporary.

progressed in many ways, and I suspect there will be a slow but steady march in a better direction.

I was born in rural Mississippi in the early 40's, and when my family moved to NE Ohio in 1951, I --even as a child -- felt things had gotten better. It didn't take long to figure out the difference between de facto and de jure.

While I acknowledge the great strides that have been made in my lifetime, I'm still scarred by my history and the scab that gets ripped off all too often.

and I figured out that difference when I moved to Boston in the late 60s.

South Boston was a no man's land for any person with any melanin in their skin. I kid you not. It's the same today, I imagine.

I knew so many people from Ireland who went there first because they'd all heard it was some marvelous Irish enclave. Most fled screaming within a month. When people try to tell me I'd escaped rednecks in Boston, I tell them about Southie.

I lived in a lot of godawful places there but I did have enough sense to avoid Southie. In 76, when they were pelting buses full of little kids with rocks, I wasn't surprised. Furious and disgusted, yes. Surprised, no.

Its well deserved reputation as a hellhole has caused a few landlords to rent to the non Scots Irish and I suppose the brave souls there with a little melanin in their skin have started to change it. I doubt they're welcome in the pubs.

So we were both there at the same time. Maybe we even snubbed each other on the street. I was the scrawny gal who walked twice as fast as everybody else did.

we'll never know

But I get the basic gist of your post.

Mislabeling people doesn't help though. Actually labeling in general doesn't help!

who hates and fears a person of color. Right?

Don't pay any attention.

In fact, we'd be a lot better off if more people would start rejecting the labels people insist on them.

I've never once let someone call me a "black" person and I'm not going to start now just because you tell me I deserve a label.

That is a term that we African-Americans began to use in the '60s to define ourselves.

We decided we didn't like the ugly terms "negro" or "colored" and even "nigra" push upon us by whites of the time.

It is our term. We are black and proud of it.

If you have a problem with that, that's on you.

We eventually took self-definition further and moved to first Afro-American and now African-American.

We use the terms black and African-American interchangeably and we use them proudly. In a way it's a subtle celebration of the melanin in our skin — maybe you've heard the term "black don't crack"? It refers to how the melanin in our skin protects us better from sunlight then those who don't have it, and it also denotes pride in how black women in their 50s, 60s and even 70s hardly have a wrinkle in their skin.

Black don't crack, baby, and we're proud of it.

Happy Hillary Day. When she wins today, she should be made a national holiday...... Going to vote. Peace.....hope.

"Person of non-color" is a label as well. Your're pretty much shadow-boxing yourself into a corner.

(insert distinction lacking relevant below to better maintain pretense)

You are reading things that aren't there!

What are you getting on about?

but you are labeled by society and many denizens of the swamps of this culture every day in one form or another. You are whomever you want to be, but doesn't change the labeling the american apartheid culture "insists" upon you. Have a good one and I'll take the advice of one here and move on.Bye

towards us don't say anything or comment. You're making the problem ten times worse

attention gone......

Another day another . . .

What specifically leads you to allege "persons of non-color" is more appropriate or a mislabel?

Additionally, by your measure, are not simple names (themselves being simply labels as well) also inappropriate? And if not, what is the objective and relevant difference?

But at the very least, if I'm going to label him, "person of non-color" makes sense. Why would I label him "white" when noone besides folks suffering from albinism is actually white? Makes about as much sense as labeling a person "black" or "yellow."

You then have no objective data on which to support your premise. Do you habitually reach conclusions based wholly on one subjective anecdote? If one person asked you not to use their given name, will your consistency prevent you from using names hereafter?

Yet still unanswered is by what objective measure do you allege "white" is inappropriate (see the above post for original query); and is a name a label? If so, do you consider use of standard naming conventions inappropriate as well? If not, what is the objective and relevant difference?




Responding to question is easy... any half-wit can do it. Answering a question though, takes rational and critical thought, and we all of us have both faith and confidence in regards to your critical thinking abilities, despite failing to answer any questions above, instead merely responding to them...

Your may make as many conveniently inaccurate inference as you desire if you believe they cast a better reflection on your ability to think critically and speak rationally.

However, if you're merely incapable or unable to answer three questions directly relevant to your own position, it tempts me to believe you in fact, have no answers and are merely being insincere, as was alluded to in other posts... regardless of what you allege to "get."

I learn so much from your posts. Thank you.

I learn and have learned a hell of a lot from you guys as well.

How many of us would have the courage to sit, especially if you are white, what racists hate more than a black, is a "nigger lover".

SCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It happened after I ventured into a "redneck" bar and I didn't go along with the racist and ant-Obama rants of one of the patrons in there.

It's possible that it was simply a robbery (since I'd foolishly paid for some beers with a wad of cash in my pocket), but I strongly suspect that it happened because I didn't agree with his nonsense. He gave me a "dirty look" after his hateful rant.

Before I woke up in an ER getting stitches in my face, my last memory was leaving that hellhole and walking toward my car. The back of my head had a gigantic bump, like someone hit me with a pipe or something.

in, get the best seats, and the finest service...no matter what, and that their percentage of melanin somehow makes them "better" than others.

This is another game-changing election....I can't wait for the day when this shit is just par for the course, when the legislature has a population that actually looks like America in every demographic fashion.

The people who "have a long way to go" are the ones who get in the way of true equality for all of us.

I had a bad dream the night after seeing riot videos from Milwaukee. I dreamed that I was in a mostly African American neighborhood and people were trying to kill me because of my skin color.

That was the first time that I had a nightmare like that, and I was able to dispel the anxiety quickly after I awoke. I live in an area with more African Americans compared to the national average, but there's still mostly white people around me. (I don't have much privilege in many ways, but I'll acknowledge that my situation would probably be even worse if I was black.) If I imagine myself as an African American who has witnessed past and present hatred and violence towards them, it seems likely that such concern would exist in my mind. I get all kinds of privilege for my skin color, such as being able to travel most places to mostly see other white people who I doubt will dislike me because of a silly trait like skin color.

I'm very sorry about the situation. I can only assure you that most white people that I've met don't seem to have any animosity toward African Americans at all (at least here in SW Ohio)! A problem is that they exist at all and that African Americans can't really know which ones have animosity right away. I often can't tell either unless one of them speaks to me privately and thus reveal themselves.

As for the causes, media might play a bigger role than I used to think. Some of the most racist people that I've met at jobs aren't white. Here's a couple recent examples...

I was telling a man and woman from Sri Lanka (who moved to the USA because their son became a medical doctor here) that we're ultimately all related to each other and that humanity originated in Africa. Both of them strongly denied that possibility. I assured them that scientists who study archaeology, biology (DNA markers) and other related fields have established it as fact. They again denied that possibility. The man said that I might've descended from Africa if that's what I want to believe, but they did NOT! I first wondered if they had an old myth about the origin of their people, but other comments were made by them that made it clear that they simply didn't want to be related to Africans. Coincidentally, the man easily had the darkest skin color in the entire factory. He was darker than any of the African American workers there. (Not that his skin color really means very much in ancestral terms, although the recent or distant ancestors of everyone was likely very dark at some point in the past.)

There was a Vietnamese-American who also worked there. He first came to the USA in the 80's, and he sometimes spoke of his idiotic "theory" about people from around the world and which ones looked most like primates (in his mind).

What I found interesting was that the Vietnamese guy would sometimes speak openly about his "theory" with African American workers around, and they just laughed about it! If that came out of the mouth of a white co-worker, I suspect the reaction would have been very different. I'm guessing that's related to the somewhat recent history in this country and which skin colors were more of a threat. The Vietnamese fellow was so incredibly skinny and small, maybe he wasn't seen as a threat at a personal level either?

Anyway, I'm not sure why the man from Vietnam or the couple from Sri Lanka developed their sense of superiority. They watched news from around the world in their youth, so I'm guessing that the origins of their screwy ideas started from that somehow.

Last edited Sun Sep 4, 2016, 09:51 AM - Edit history (2)

I have found they feel that if they disparage and use the stereotypes for AA that racist whites use in America that somehow they will be accepted by those they see as the dominant culture and it will be easier for them to fit into white american culture, a culture they have surmised, and rightfully so, that is hateful toward AA . The dark skinned lower southern Asian populations and Vietnamese, Cambodians ect. are laughable in their racism, but feel their hair and usually fine facial features give them an edge with who they see as the dominant race because those self perceived attributes closely resembles white people. I got to Vietnam and heard more than once from Vietnamese, "you same, same monkey" and I even had one curious as to whether I had a tail. I postulate they learned this hate from racist white soldiers. Our brand of cultural racism is an infection that has caused a world full of people to hate. That's my take and I won't change it.

I'm white and I tried very hard to talk sense to the Vietnamese fellow, but he wouldn't have it.

I showed him pictures of Aborigines from Australia and gave him a summary of how they migrated there and how he would be somewhat-closely related to them, but he wouldn't accept that either.

It was bizarre because he seemed smart about nearly everything else. I thought that I'd convinced him one time only to hear him talk the same kind of nonsense a few weeks later.

Anyway, I'd generally recommend avoiding the white people who seem very uneducated. It's not foolproof, and some of them are sweethearts who would never hurt a fly, but I think they tend to be more racist and dangerous compared to others.

I'm so sick of it all.

...maybe they were noses in the air, demeaning and frivolous. But as you describe them, it doesn't sound like they needed to be publicly shamed and silenced. It sounds like they needed to be educated. I know that's a hard thing to do in this climate. Especially when your hear such casual, ignorant bigotry and it like this and it feels like the last straw. But compare this to Lobo27's "Unexpected Racism" thread. There, a woman was being an out-and-out racist, and needed to be shut down firmly and unequivocally.

Going from your description, these people weren't attacking anyone. Which means there probably wasn't any reason to put them on the spot. You could have said, "Excuse me, I couldn't help overhearing. Exactly what do you mean by "African Americans have come so far?" Then you'd listen, and say, "I don' think you're seeing how that view comes across...." And gone on about slavery, segregation and how important it was for them to recognize their privilege, and to understand the arrogance and inherent racism in wha they were thinking and saying.

Shaming and embarrassing people silences them. And I don't think that's best if their hearts and minds can be put into the right place. That they were even having a conversation about it was, in fact, a step in the right direction, because that means the talk could be shifted. That their narrow field of vision could be expanded. It's like paying it forward. You do this for them, and the next time they're with friends and those friends say something similar, they can expand that conversation and educate their friends. But if you shut them down, shame and embarrass them, then all they'll say to their friends is "better not talk like that out loud. We did in this restaurant and this stranger came down on us like a ton of bricks!"

I say all this because it's so easy to let the Trolls, Trump supporters, racists and republicans make us think that attacking is the only way to react in such situations. But shooting to kill isn't always necessary, and usually just leaves people on the defensive. Listening and discussing, instead, can open them up and change them. Robert Byrd, who was a member of the Klan, transformed and apologized. If he could do that, then I think people like this couple could do it as well, given the chance. They certainly haven't nearly as far to go as Byrd did. So why not give them an opportunity to understand themselves, and so be better and do better?

is a heartfelt response to the anger I might feel toward people who have had plenty of time to accept the AA as a full citizen and not see him or her still on the path to full acceptance as a free and equal american citizen and from their full conversation, a people who should be happy they have come so far in the eyes of the still dominat race.

I am sick and tired of hearing that my anger might be misplaced and that I should offer a milder demeanor toward those who are not fully aware of how their words are perceived by one still on the path toward full citizenship and equality after 250 years of presence in America. Those two by virtue of theirc skin color have no path to tread toward any type of equalty, ever. Their chances of being shot down in the streets while unarmed? Nil. Their chances of being found in a jail cell hung? Nil. Their chances of being followed in a store? Nil. I could go on, but I won't belabor the point.

Those two also could ask themselves why that stranger responded to their words in such a fashion and explore further their role in society and how they are perceived by PoC. Then either they change or want to continue to hold resentment toward "the angry black man" and never change. This slow march is getting to be bullshit. IF, and I've said this countless times, white people really wanted to eradicate racism from this culture the power to do so resides wth themi and it would be so. Privilege and equality for all, as I see things, is not to be relinquished at any cost. Your words to me also seem to say the responsibility to end white racism lies with AA. Be patient, be kind, educate and maybe one day all will be equal. Nope. Need a hell of a lot more white people on that wagon and it just is not happening. The journey continues.

...Nor did I say it was any AA person's responsibility to end any kind of racism. I didn't even say that it was your responsibility...but you did take it upon yourself, literally, to end their white lies and school them. Didn't you? I mean, anyone who really feels it is not their responsibility would not have said anything. So you presented a situation where you took responsibility to end white racism. All I did was comment on your method, not whether it was your, or any other AA person's duty to do so.

As to my thoughts on how you handled it, you posted the story here and you did not say, at the end, "I don't want any criticisms on this. I'm writing this to rant and to get unqualified support." Is that what you wanted? If so, I apologize. I should have intuited that, but like the racist couple I can be blind to what may seem stupidly obvious to you. I wrongly thought you were open to comments, including contrary ones.

I wasn't there and I'm not you. If you say you reacted in the best and most right way to this couple, then I believe you. And I'll do my best to better intuit what you're after, comment wise, in the future.

I just feel that we as a human kind must not let evil intent slip by without response. I am doing my best to educate the educatable and to push the opposite side back into the swamp from whence they came. Criticism of me is expected and appreciated and I will respond in defense of myself, always. Whether I understand the full response I am dealing with at any given time can be a challenge, because I may wrongly intuit the response I am replying to.

Constructive criticism helps to smooth out any disagreements between two parties. I did not mean to misinterpret your meaning(s) in response. But I responded to what I read and my perception of that. I still feel that society could be rid of the heinous evil of racial inequality IF sufficient numbers of human beings rise and say "NO MORE"!!!!. It has not happened and I wonder if it ever will. That leaves the onus of responsibility on the mass of AA only, with their allieas that are still a minority to fight back. Trump is the ocean, we are at the seawall with only our wits and fingers holding back the tidal surge building out there in american trumpenfuhrerland. And yes after many years at that seawall there are more leaks than less. That's disappointing.

Sorry if I came off too harsh. I do appreciate feedback. Have a good one.

and not that our tone/method "Might" change hearts and minds. How has that worked out for us living in what is the greatest amount of recorded killings, among other injustices, since the Jim Crow era and polite protests of the '50s, '60s and before?

There's so much written about this that I'm doing an injustice in trying to explain that, to me, heaven05 posed the right questions at the right time. Had to read up on my contradictory feelings - raised to be polite/nice and balance that with rage. I've posed the same responses many times in public and privately when I'm told/hear or read "move on," "get over it," and "negroes have made such progress" that I think of as polite racism.

You say "shooting to kill isn't always necessary." Wow, talk about harsh. Did heaven05 shoot to kill after saying, "I asked quietly...?" Many of us, depending on the situation, are shedding thinking of white reaction first before we act. And I say heaven05 reacted from an informed space. Jeeze, remember BLM's tactic that changed the focus of this election season was not by saying, D'uh, Uh, kindly excuse me but...

I say heaven05's tactic is a form of education. If later, like you say, "better not talk like that out loud" is said among friends then YAY, that's a step in the right direction, too. It's teaching them it is not polite to say such things in 2016. But whether or not heaven05's method changed hearts and minds, is not up to her(?) to determine. If they miss the content of "quietly" posing food for thought then that is on them. I say this because while information to change hearts and minds comes from outside of us, doing so is an individual process that none of us have access to. I say this also because you stated, "If he," Sen. Bryd, "could do that, then I think people like this couple could do it as well, given the chance."

What chance? Who's to determine the chance if we're to first act on a possible but highly improbable favorable white reaction? Do you know why Sen. Bryd changed his mind? If not, it was not because he was simply educated about racism. It was because he was finally able to put himself in our shoes. Who would think that it was mainly the event of his grandson's death that turned him around? Who's to say what event in anyone's life can cause this kind of evolution? The comfort of the bigot or passive bigot, and the chance they might change, cannot be our first concern.

The point is that being confrontational is a valid strategy in our arsenal. I cannot sit back in judgement on heaven05's situation that I did not witness because "educating" comes in many forms.
The time has long passed when Dr. King said freedom comes through "persistent agitation," and longer still when Frederick Douglas said, "Those who favor freedom without agitation want crops without plowing." Surely they educated in ways that are preferrable to you but agitation that's been in practice forever is a form of change, as well.

Harsh or not, polite or not, "educating" or not, we know supremacy deals in death and it would be so cool when people stop talking about our tone/method that we all know is a deflection from atrocities.

and extremely appreciated by a 68 year old mixed race male, AA in american apartheid culture, who tried what certain ones here see as the proper, polite approach and it did not work. I reiterate my point to those who counsel, patience, politeness and concern for the feelings of people who seem to understand that there is a decades long continuing race relations problem in american society and culture, but who for various reasons, holding on to white privilege being a major one I think, cannot stand up and say out loud to the white racist of this society, NO MORE! So I will do it in whatever way I deem appropriate in any given situation, as you seem to understand and concur with.

Today, from Trayvon Martin to Sandra Bland and beyond, politeness has not worked with the racist and trumpenfuhrer's trumpshirts are proving it.

There was so much juicy BS in the poster's 2 responses that I didn't know where to start. The most glaring, coming here with a "shoot to kill" lecture about your experience. This has been discussed ad nauseam for over a year now.

Your sig line is says it all - as some people become more human the less we have to explain our humanity to them

I see so much pushback from whites on the concepts of privledge and social dominance (As well as social standards such as beauty standards) --often diminishing it to anecdotal economics-- that it becomes hard to understand where such education should begin.

One thing I can do as a white person, is listen, listen and then listen some more, and expect to be uncomfortable ~often~ when I try to practice anti-racism or anti-whiteness. It is NOT intuitive when one is the dominant culture.

In many cases It's very easy, while white, not to use racial slurs, to support anti-racist legislation etc. or have friends and relations who are PoC. It is impossible to live a white life to the point of fully understanding what it's like to be Black. And where understanding stops, useful communication becomes difficult.

fear of death. fear of living. sad people we can only pity and be grateful we live as humans and not some fear based two legged animal.

standing up for us. I applaud you