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JHan

(10,173 posts)
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:17 AM Jan 2017

Since folks want to throw Cory under the bus...

Last edited Sun Jan 15, 2017, 10:45 AM - Edit history (3)

This blog goes into detail about the amendment:

https://cenlamar.com/2017/01/14/if-bernie-sanders-cares-about-cheaper-drugs-he-should-stop-smearing-his-colleagues-for-rejecting-his-flawed-amendment/

"The left-wing media reflexively ran with Sanders’s explanation as gospel truth, slamming Sen. Cory Booker, in particular, for his perceived betrayal. “Progressives Outraged Over Booker, Democrats’ Vote On Prescription Drugs From Canada,” Roll Call reported. “Cory Booker’s Bogus Excuse Betrays Progressives,” claimed Michael Sainato of The Observer. Similarly, on social media, Booker was slammed as a “traitor,” a “sell-out,” and “a corporate shill.”"


One day, he is hailed for his tenacity and integrity in opposing a nominee for Attorney General who had already been rejected once for a seat on the federal bench because of his racist statements. The next day, he is blasted as a tool of Big Pharma because he, along with 12 of his other Democratic colleagues, voted against a non-binding budget amendment authored by Bernie Sanders. Before he even had an opportunity to explain his vote, Sanders was on the attack.


And corporate shill?

"It is true that in 2014, when he first ran for Senate, Cory Booker received $329,000 from the pharmaceutical industry. It placed him near the top of the list that year in industry donations. It’s also not too surprising: New Jersey is home to 46 different pharmaceutical companies, including the headquarters of Johnson & Johnson, Merck, and Wyeth. $329,000 is a lot of money, and it’s also the same amount of money the industry has donated to first-term Republican Sen. Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, home to exactly zero pharmaceutical company headquarters. That money goes much further in Louisiana than it does in New Jersey.

It’s also significantly less than the $4.5 million that then-Sen. Barack Obama raised from the pharmaceutical industry when he ran for President in 2008.

Last year, during his campaign for President, Bernie Sanders received $309,575 from the pharmaceutical industry. Of the 100 members of the Senate, he ranked third in donations from the industry.

For what it’s worth, the 30 Democratic members who voted in favor of Sanders’s amendment received a combined total of $1,038,971 from the pharmaceutical industry last year alone; if you include the donations Sanders, an Independent, received, the grand total is $1,348,546. "

On the other hand, the 13 Democratic members who voted against his amendment raised a total of $1,039,339 from the industry.

But these aggregate totals are somewhat deceptive, because they belie the fact that nearly half of the amendment’s Democratic supporters received either no donations or less than $10,000 from the industry, while over a dozen of them received anywhere between $40,000 to $240,000.

In other words, there isn’t a direct correlation between a member’s individual vote and the size of the donations they received from the industry. The largest beneficiary of campaign donations from the industry voted against it, and the second and third largest beneficiaries voted for it.


So, why did it fail?

Well, for starters, Sanders couldn’t figure out if he wanted to create a fund to import drugs from Canada or the entire world. In its initial iteration, his amendment sought to establish a deficit-neutral reserve fund to allow for the importation of drugs from “Canada and other countries.” Amy Klobuchar subsequently cleaned up the language and eliminated “other countries” from its title.

But, aside from the confusion about the scope of this proposed reserve fund, the primary reason it failed is that Sanders misapprehended the mechanisms necessary to establish an importation process that conforms with FDA guidelines. It’s not enough to say “these drugs must be safe;” there needs to be funding for quality control and compliance, which was never addressed.

Sure, this was a non-binding budget amendment, and some will argue that things could have simply been cleaned up later on. But it was ostensibly designed to be a funding mechanism, and instead, it read like a milquetoast resolution. There were a number of other amendments introduced that very day that included provisions for the Food and Drug Administration; Sanders’s didn’t, and it needed to.

In making the case for this legislation, Sanders spoke almost exclusively about the re-importation of patented American pharmaceuticals, and to be fair, that is an enormous part of the equation; it’s also what most American consumers demand. However, it doesn’t capture the entirety of the market. In some cases, American consumers may turn to Canadian compounding pharmacies for cheaper specialized medications; in others, Americans may want to purchase generic medications that are no longer patented and can be manufactured independently at a lower cost. And that’s why we need FDA oversight and compliance.

It’s easy to say, “Well, if Canada already approved these drugs, then why do we need the FDA to get involved?” Simple answer: Because the Canadian regulatory agency is responsible for protecting Canadian citizens, and the FDA is responsible for protecting American citizens.

Right now, we basically take foreign drug importers at their word. We require that they register, that they fill out some paperwork, that they label their products, and that they adhere to international best practice standards in manufacturing. But there’s no way we can really guarantee any of that.

The demand for cheaper drugs from Canada has already created a boutique industry of online pharmacies that market almost exclusively to Americans, and most of these pharmacies are fraudulent. The drugs they sell may be deadly. Recently, a Canadian drug manufacturer was caught selling fake cancer drugs to American doctors.

And that is precisely why it’s so important to get this legislation right, from the beginning.

If Bernie Sanders is serious about reducing drug prices, he should stop smearing his colleagues for rejecting his flawed amendment and instead start listening to them.


And a reserve fund? Reserve Funds would not have made a difference, as Dylan Matthews point out at WaPo in 2013:


Tbh, I never saw the Canada option as viable. Canada's Pharmaceutical Industry is not as robust as ours. They account for only 2 percent of worldwide pharmaceutical sales, and we are their main market for sales: "Cross-border internet pharmacy sales between Canada and the U.S. grew rapidly from 2000 to 2003, but had, until 2014, steadily declined. However, they grew by 7% from 2014 to 2015, reaching $112 million or 1.5% of total pharmaceutical products exports to the United States (IMS Pharmafocus 2020)." https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/lsg-pdsv.nsf/eng/h_hn01703.html

The approval process for drugs in Canada takes longer than our approval process. Heavy price controls have created a demand for cheap generics which in some instances risk lives: Worth the price? Push for cheaper generic drugs has Canadians buying questionable medicines from India

Health Canada needs better oversight of generic drug quality. Not promoting woo wouldn’t hurt either.

Canada has a sluggish approval process, (because of the formulary approval process). Because of price controls, demand for generics are high, meaning quality drugs are rare to come by. The situation is far from perfect. Rather than adopt a tunnel vision about importing drugs from Canada, I'd rather representatives examine the flaws in Canada's set up and what lessons we can learn from them.

Maybe that's what the conversation should be about?

Instead a line has been drawn in the sand , a strong democratic senator and an ally reviled over a symbolic amendment with no teeth.

This thread is also worth following: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028477228
74 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Since folks want to throw Cory under the bus... (Original Post) JHan Jan 2017 OP
Just say no to big pharma HoneyBadger Jan 2017 #1
no it's not. Senators have to think of their states and jobs and other things for their constituents JI7 Jan 2017 #2
Not necessarily.. ciaobaby Jan 2017 #4
you talk to every single person in nj ? and they elected christie so it's not some huge liberal JI7 Jan 2017 #5
Cory spent 15 years as a Newark politician HoneyBadger Jan 2017 #9
newark is part of nj JI7 Jan 2017 #10
What an odd sense of right and wrong HoneyBadger Jan 2017 #13
my point is they would vote for him if the election was held tomorrow JI7 Jan 2017 #15
And they would still vote for him if he got the amendment vote right HoneyBadger Jan 2017 #17
You can't have read that OP, or you'd understand that the situation pnwmom Jan 2017 #42
Please reread the article. JHan Jan 2017 #48
What an odd sense of unsupported and righteous absolutism you posses... LanternWaste Jan 2017 #73
another viewpoint ciaobaby Jan 2017 #3
that will never happen because senators are elected by their states and all states are not the same JI7 Jan 2017 #6
Well, thats the problem with Democrats ! ciaobaby Jan 2017 #7
that's true of all senators . it's not a party thing . JI7 Jan 2017 #8
you are right. ciaobaby Jan 2017 #11
no, democrats lose because of the way the system is set up. not because they don't all vote together JI7 Jan 2017 #12
I am sure it is a bit of both. ciaobaby Jan 2017 #14
there is never 100 percent united front. not even with republicans JI7 Jan 2017 #16
Agreed - but the closer you get the better ciaobaby Jan 2017 #18
because it's a bunch of bs just to attack Booker JI7 Jan 2017 #19
Honestly don't think thats the case ciaobaby Jan 2017 #20
the focus has been on booker only JI7 Jan 2017 #21
I would strongly suggest you take a look at fb if you truly believe that. Bohunk68 Jan 2017 #46
But why do we all have to unite behind Bernie? bravenak Jan 2017 #22
Now I am so confused ciaobaby Jan 2017 #24
But you are only noticing it because of Bernie bravenak Jan 2017 #26
I wish you would not direct your anger at me. ciaobaby Jan 2017 #27
You are the one who seems 'angry' at Booker who just demolished Trump bravenak Jan 2017 #28
not trashing anybody ciaobaby Jan 2017 #29
You have said that a bajillion times bravenak Jan 2017 #30
until you hear it. ciaobaby Jan 2017 #31
I heard it bravenak Jan 2017 #33
I agree with most. ciaobaby Jan 2017 #34
he has been in the news for trying to stop a right wing anti gay, racist senator from becoming AG JI7 Jan 2017 #35
Yep. He gets no credit bravenak Jan 2017 #39
Right? mcar Jan 2017 #72
Just realize that we might be a bit more aware in the aa group of how much bravenak Jan 2017 #41
+1 betsuni Jan 2017 #45
And of course Obama, he got the treatment too. JHan Jan 2017 #50
Everything was Obama's fault here for eight years bravenak Jan 2017 #57
Yes he got more high profile about it. LiberalFighter Jan 2017 #55
Well said, brave! brer cat Jan 2017 #62
exactly, especially with Trump about to be President and the same crowd going after Dems for the JI7 Jan 2017 #37
example please of how I trashed Booker ciaobaby Jan 2017 #32
You came into a thread that followed an OP specifically about Booker. pnwmom Jan 2017 #44
Why vote for a bill that is flawed? LiberalFighter Jan 2017 #54
Thank you for this post. rogue emissary Jan 2017 #66
Exactly! LiberalFighter Jan 2017 #53
They're my senators, too HassleCat Jan 2017 #23
I'm not angry with them. Are you aware that they've already discovered pnwmom Jan 2017 #43
Great points +++++++++++ JHan Jan 2017 #51
Why are you angry over them because of an amendment that is only symbolic .. JHan Jan 2017 #49
I remember Booker from Newark days, and he's one sharp politician who knows... TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #25
it was the same with Joe Biden and the Credit Industry in his state JI7 Jan 2017 #36
your article showed some good points DonCoquixote Jan 2017 #38
i agree that the issue of pricing is critical.. JHan Jan 2017 #47
Thank you! (nt) betsuni Jan 2017 #40
Thank you for the post. LiberalFighter Jan 2017 #52
Some errors... OneBlueDotBama Jan 2017 #56
How drugs are approved in Canada: JHan Jan 2017 #58
Being listed on a provincial formulary has nothing to with safety. OneBlueDotBama Jan 2017 #59
Yes and the wait is a flaw in the system which is why I mentioned it: JHan Jan 2017 #60
Again.... OneBlueDotBama Jan 2017 #61
And again......."the provincial review has to do with efficiency and pricing" JHan Jan 2017 #64
It's complicated... OneBlueDotBama Jan 2017 #68
That Roody anecdote shouldn't floor me but it did.. JHan Jan 2017 #69
Trying to keep track of.... OneBlueDotBama Jan 2017 #70
Thank you, JHan. brer cat Jan 2017 #63
Agreed. ++++.... JHan Jan 2017 #65
This ... BlueMTexpat Jan 2017 #67
K&R mcar Jan 2017 #71
I don't like him .. coco22 Jan 2017 #74
 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
1. Just say no to big pharma
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:26 AM
Jan 2017

And stand up for the folks that need affordable drugs. It really is that simple. Anything else is deception.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
2. no it's not. Senators have to think of their states and jobs and other things for their constituents
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:29 AM
Jan 2017
 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
4. Not necessarily..
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:39 AM
Jan 2017

both my representatives, joined Booker and voted NO.
I can tell you, they did not do it for their constituents.
I really can't say why they did it. Even after calls to their offices, they do not have a "statement".
But I do not know any constituents who are happy with them right now.
Unless by constituents you mean the pharma guys who give them so much money.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
5. you talk to every single person in nj ? and they elected christie so it's not some huge liberal
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:43 AM
Jan 2017

state either even if they are strongly democratic.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
9. Cory spent 15 years as a Newark politician
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:52 AM
Jan 2017

Do not throw those good people under the bus

JI7

(90,844 posts)
10. newark is part of nj
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:55 AM
Jan 2017

i bet he wins their votes again regardless of what office he runs for .

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
13. What an odd sense of right and wrong
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:01 AM
Jan 2017

Still getting votes at election time years away has NOTHING to do with whether they voted correctly on an amendment

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
17. And they would still vote for him if he got the amendment vote right
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:08 AM
Jan 2017

And he would have shown them significantly more support. Doing the wrong thing for the people of Newark, even when you can get away with it, that does not impress anyone.

pnwmom

(109,630 posts)
42. You can't have read that OP, or you'd understand that the situation
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 05:09 AM
Jan 2017

is far more complicated than you think.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
73. What an odd sense of unsupported and righteous absolutism you posses...
Mon Jan 16, 2017, 11:44 AM
Jan 2017

" It really is that simple. Anything else is deception..."

What an odd sense of unsupported and righteous absolutism you posses. Faith in our own inerrancy is commendable, but irrational.

As it so often boils down to a mere allegation written on a trendy t-shirt, you'll no doubt provide objective evidence to support that statement, yes?

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
3. another viewpoint
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:34 AM
Jan 2017

I am angry, not just at Booker, but also my two representative, Murray and Cantwell in Washington State.
I believe that the political climate is such that ALL democrats should vote together. We need to send a message, we need to unite.
There is no perfect bill. Anyone can find a reason to vote no. And there will likely be another opportunity.
But now, with Trump taking over, Republicans in majority, both House and Senate, Democrats must present a united front.
If we can't do it now, we never will.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
6. that will never happen because senators are elected by their states and all states are not the same
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:44 AM
Jan 2017

JI7

(90,844 posts)
8. that's true of all senators . it's not a party thing .
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:50 AM
Jan 2017

senators are elected by their states .

the same people who complain about senators from another state voting a certain way have no involvement in their local and state level govt and other activism.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
11. you are right.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:56 AM
Jan 2017

And yet it should be a "party" thing. This is just one example of why democrats keep losing.
This party is in sorry shape.
I really wonder what a democratic is anymore.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
12. no, democrats lose because of the way the system is set up. not because they don't all vote together
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 02:57 AM
Jan 2017

every single time which even republicans don't do.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
14. I am sure it is a bit of both.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:03 AM
Jan 2017

But both need to be fixed.
Fix the "system" and present a united front.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
16. there is never 100 percent united front. not even with republicans
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:04 AM
Jan 2017

senators are elected by the state.

manchin would never win in california and barbara boxer would never have won in west virginia.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
18. Agreed - but the closer you get the better
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:15 AM
Jan 2017

Why are you so against this idea?
Being in a party, a group, a union, it is all about being together, being united.
You know the old saying - United we stand - Divided we fall.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
20. Honestly don't think thats the case
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:22 AM
Jan 2017

for me anyway,
I was never focused on Booker. I was upset with all of the dems who voted no.

Bohunk68

(1,364 posts)
46. I would strongly suggest you take a look at fb if you truly believe that.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 07:17 AM
Jan 2017

I have been seeing all those Senators getting their ass handed to them. ALL of them, not just Booker. There is a lot of anger that I see from those in Washington State, who, as I am sure you know, do not have Booker as their Senator. Let's keep things as factual as possible.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
24. Now I am so confused
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:27 AM
Jan 2017

Nobody said anything about Bernie.
If you are referring to the bill as being Bernie's we have already established that it was Kobushars bill and Bernie was "only" co-sponsor which is somehow seen as a bad thing on this site, at least as Bernie is concerned.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
26. But you are only noticing it because of Bernie
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:32 AM
Jan 2017

This has been a running theme. If Bernie supports something we better all fall in line or else. I have noticed the thread hopping to blast Booker in thread after thread. He is not the only one who voted no but he is the main one I see you mad at. I once told the progressive left how bad it looks when they focus the bulk of their anger on african americans when a bunch of white folks did the exact same thing and nobody seems to get mad or care very much.

I think it might be time to let it go. The Booker hate has become pathological just like the John Lewis hate was last year. The only thing tying both events together is that they both did not either endorse or vote for something Bernie supported. Let it go.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
27. I wish you would not direct your anger at me.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:37 AM
Jan 2017

It was never about Booker for me. It was about the fact that enough democrats voted no and that killed the bill.
I was more pissed at my own state senators. What do I care what Cory Booker votes for.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
28. You are the one who seems 'angry' at Booker who just demolished Trump
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:40 AM
Jan 2017

I am noticing. You could stop if you wanted to. But if it is important to you to bash Booker, That's your business. Mine is to tell you that I notice what you are up to. If you dont like it, that's not really my problem. I really dont like seeing democrats trashed so I am defending my fellow Democrat from spurious accusations and implied malfeasance.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
33. I heard it
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:47 AM
Jan 2017

I just believe his explaination because I give my fellow dems the benefit of doubt. I don't realky care who dislikes his vote. He represents the citizens of NJ. If they are so pissed they can elect somebody else next time. I am sure that this vote is not a make or break thing. It certainly is not for me. Booker is a good dem and a good Senator. The more peopke attack dems for lack of purity the more i find myself becoming more moderate in my opinions. And I am probably to YOUR left. I certainly am to the left of anybody in our Senate and even leftier than Jill Stein. But these purity tests irritate me all to fucking hell. Catch more flies with honey than hot air and anger.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
34. I agree with most.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:52 AM
Jan 2017

But I think I am left of left. Who knows.
I really was more concerned with my senators and not so much Booker. But since he has been in the news lately every one focused on him. My issues were with the group.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
35. he has been in the news for trying to stop a right wing anti gay, racist senator from becoming AG
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 04:16 AM
Jan 2017

but he gets no credit from a certain crowd for that. in fact that crowd doesn't really give a shit about those issues which affect non white people , particularly blacks and hispanics in this country .

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
39. Yep. He gets no credit
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 04:39 AM
Jan 2017

And I am getting damn sick of all the scrutiny going against democrats

mcar

(43,619 posts)
72. Right?
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 05:27 PM
Jan 2017

I don't get this at all. He took a strong stance against Sessions but one vote and Boom! He's attacked.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
41. Just realize that we might be a bit more aware in the aa group of how much
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 04:48 AM
Jan 2017

scrutiny goes against our black senators while the white ones get a pass. I dont see a bajillion threads about the rest of the no votes. I only see them about the one black guy in the bunch.
I seriously think that people dont even notice when they do it.
But they need to. Especially on the left.

The same shit happened when John Lewis said he 'did not see Bernie' at the marches he attended. A bunch of threads went up all over the internet from leftists bashing a great black civil rights leader for daring to not give Bernie undue credit.

Black folks always get less credit and more 'tough love' and opposition and 'holding their feet to the fire' that anybody else in America. Have some sensitivity when coming up in the aa group to complain about black democrats on a site for democrats.

I honestly am quite done with the white progressive left after how we have been treated by them this past couple of years and will not let it pass in this here group. People barge right up in here to whine to the group of folks who have much more to complain about than they ever ever ever could possibly have to be angry or frustrated about. Coming to a black group to complain about a black man not doing what you want is as ridiculous as me going to a paraplegic convention to whine that my foot hurts.


JHan

(10,173 posts)
50. And of course Obama, he got the treatment too.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 08:41 AM
Jan 2017

I've seen many progressives pick on Cory for the most ridiculous reasons. It's getting tiring.

LiberalFighter

(53,512 posts)
55. Yes he got more high profile about it.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 09:00 AM
Jan 2017

Here in Indiana Donnelly has been getting ripped apart. We had our county mtg yesterday and the state party chair was there too. That was a topic of discussion and he didn't have a good response. The op would had helped immensely.

brer cat

(26,479 posts)
62. Well said, brave!
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 09:59 AM
Jan 2017

Frankly, the patronizing attitude of many on the far left skirts awfully close to the "r" word we mustn't mention with regard to fellow democrats. Singling out Booker to trash after the vote seems like some folks are anxious to take this black man down a peg or two.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
37. exactly, especially with Trump about to be President and the same crowd going after Dems for the
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 04:20 AM
Jan 2017

same stupid shit .

and i'm not talking about disagreeing and disliking certain votes and positions they take. but what they are doing is trying to tear them down and destroy them.

pnwmom

(109,630 posts)
44. You came into a thread that followed an OP specifically about Booker.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 05:23 AM
Jan 2017

And then you ignored all the information in the OP (by a Democrat who is also a disability activist) and just vented your anger toward Booker, along with your own Senators and anyone else who voted against the bill.

Read the OP and respond to it. Otherwise it looks like you're just bashing Booker -- the subject of the OP -- and the other Democrats who had THOUGHTFUL reasons for opposing this bill.


LiberalFighter

(53,512 posts)
54. Why vote for a bill that is flawed?
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 08:57 AM
Jan 2017

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone in Congress to present a flaw piece of legislation when they have the resources available to craft it properly.

LiberalFighter

(53,512 posts)
53. Exactly!
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 08:55 AM
Jan 2017

WTF -- He should also be held to the same standards that he expects from his fellow senators.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
23. They're my senators, too
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:26 AM
Jan 2017

And I agree with you about sticking together, particularly by doing the right thing.

pnwmom

(109,630 posts)
43. I'm not angry with them. Are you aware that they've already discovered
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 05:15 AM
Jan 2017

shipments of fake drugs in Seattle from Canada? The problem is that Canada has no regulations for drugs that get shipped through Canada from other countries. So how would consumers here know they were buying the real thing? And not getting the real thing can be a matter of life or death.

There is no perfect bill but this one is deeply flawed, and Murray and Cantwell were right to vote against it.

Think about it. There are 10 times as many people in the US. What makes you think US manufacturers would agree to send 4 or 5 or 10 times as much product as they have been to Canada, knowing that it would just be reimported to the US at a lower price? What would they have to gain? They wouldn't. And who would fill the gap? The producers of the fake/adulterated products.

Our Federal government should be negotiating directly with the drug companies, not trying to piggyback onto the tiny Canadian system.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
49. Why are you angry over them because of an amendment that is only symbolic ..
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 08:38 AM
Jan 2017

and was originally flawed and won't make a critical difference ? Aside from the safety issue, read the link on reserve funds, its implementation would have been a hot mess with no immediate relief for consumers.

But what I don't get is the the anger.

It's necessary to hold our reps to account, however this issue, of all issues, was enough to flare us up and divide us and demonize our allies.

If there is nothing in your Senator's voting record suggesting they are fine with poor people suffering because of drug price hikes, then maybe the reasons they voted the way they did has less to do with them not caring and other reasons instead?

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
25. I remember Booker from Newark days, and he's one sharp politician who knows...
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 03:29 AM
Jan 2017

very well what one of the largest industries in NJ is-- pharmaceuticals.

Every major pharma firm is headquartered there and I remember one or two even moved from Europe to Joisey, just to be in the middle of things. I could look up how many pharma employs, but I know it's a lot.

And with ATT, ITT, RCA, and a bunch of other tech companies downsizing, pharma is important for major growth.

OK, they still got Sony, Mars, and a bunch of others, but big pharma is the big money. And if Booker is representing NJ, he has to represent its biggest industry.

JI7

(90,844 posts)
36. it was the same with Joe Biden and the Credit Industry in his state
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 04:18 AM
Jan 2017

i didn't agree with a lot of his votes but he is a good man, a good senator and an incredible VP . I would love it if he was Pres now instead of Trump even with all the votes i disagree with him on .

DonCoquixote

(13,728 posts)
38. your article showed some good points
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 04:36 AM
Jan 2017

however, for are still some things that need to be looked at. This amendment was not going to be about making us more like the Canadian system. Granted some people would like that, some people would hate that, but the main idea was that we would've gotten the option to get medicine from Canada and at the very least people or having a hard time affording medicine they need could of gotten a better chance. Please don't forget that medicine is an economic issue which makes it a political issue; it is about people who are literally in a life or death struggle to get what they need to live. A lot of these people are the working class voters that voted for Trump but also a lot of these people are those that voted for Clinton, mothers who still trying to get the medicine they need for their children.

My point is, it is possible to love Cory Booker when he does things like his heroic defense of John Lewis. However it is also possible to criticize him when he does something but frankly plays right into the hands of Republicans. Trump has toyed with the idea of allowing cheaper Canadian medicine in here, if he does that then he will be able to point to Booker and say this guy did nothing to help you. Yes I am very well aware that the GOP wants to strangle Trump for yet another thing that he might as well have said while drunk or brain-damaged. Trump is one that made pharmaceutical stocks tank this week. However, what people of all creeds, colors and genders will see is that Canada is willing to give you the medicine you need at a much better price and will not let you die because you cannot afford it. Say what you want to about single-payer, but few people left or right, hell, very few people on the left, including Hillary herself would defend the medical status quo.

If we are going to go ahead in 2020 to fight either Trump or whoever the GOP puts in his place, we cannot expect to win if we wind up saying "the status quo is good and/or the only way possible." Yes I know that is not the message Hillary gave, and the far left was very much wrong and derelict in their duty to give that impression. However, we cannot dismiss the frustration that many people have.

And I say this is one who not only thinks Booker is probably our most serious candidate for 2020, but that if Hillary picked him as the veep in 2016 she probably would be president- elect. We do need people who know how to fight, and if there is one thing Cory Booker, unlike a lot of Democrats, knows very well is that you cannot keep bringing knives to gunfights. I was born in New Jersey, and I know that it's politics have the same sort of smash mouth, kidney punch style of fighting that we need to bring to the GOP. Note, I see all these rough things as compliments, as a matter of New Jersey pride, because I know that Trump will need people who can land a low blow, kidney punch and all the other things he so richly deserves.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
47. i agree that the issue of pricing is critical..
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 08:29 AM
Jan 2017

but it seems we're focusing on the wrong things that make headlines but don't accomplish much. In my view, this is another problem with "optics" where once you scratch the surface you're left wondering why Senators are being excoriated over it..

I don't want us to adopt the Canadian system, but rather to learn from what they got right and what they got wrong. As the article said, the amendment itself was originally flawed and with the flood of generics in the Canadian market, I can see why Booker and others were hesitant, even after correction. There isn't even a clear correlation, other than the fact Pharma does business in NJ, pointing to Booker being "bought".

My worry is that we are very quick to jump on our politicians and smearing them, instead of examining carefully why they voted in a particular way. If I believed what I read from many progressives this past week, I'd be left with the impression that Cory Booker is fine with poor people struggling to pay for life saving medicines - and that is not true.

We can't keep doing this to our allies, it's a distraction, and it doesn't bode well for 2020.

OneBlueDotBama

(1,432 posts)
56. Some errors...
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 09:01 AM
Jan 2017
Canada has a sluggish approval process, (because all provinces have to green-light federal approval of drugs and each province has different approval periods) resulting in more expensive drugs, which creates a demand for generics, meaning quality drugs are rare to come by. The situation is far from perfect. Rather than adopt a tunnel vision about importing drugs from Canada, I'd rather representatives examine the flaws in Canada's set up and what lessons we can learn from them.

Canadian provinces have nothing whatsoever to do with the safety approval of drugs. The provincial health ministers do own a operation named the Common Drug Review which rates medicines for their effectiveness, thus a guide for listing drugs on provincial formularies, or drug plans.

Secondly, the most prevalent reason for the lag in safety approvals lies with the drug companies not supplying the proper information needed. They do this for a very specific reason, that is to benefit their pricing. The pricing review is undertaken by the Patent Medicine Review Board which generally has the mandate to ensure medications are within a certain percentage of the world mean for the drug,

In years past there has been extreme pressure on the Canadian government to limit drug exports, big pharma has threatened to stop or restrict the Canadian importations of US drugs, as many medications are imported from the US.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
58. How drugs are approved in Canada:
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 09:34 AM
Jan 2017
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/drugs/how_drugs_approv/how_drugs_approv.aspx

After federal approval, each province has to approve a particular drug for their formulary: So often a drug would be approved at the federal level, but not approved by the review committee of one province or another.

OneBlueDotBama

(1,432 posts)
59. Being listed on a provincial formulary has nothing to with safety.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 09:42 AM
Jan 2017

It only means those who receive reimbursement for a drug from the province, those on welfare etc., would have to wait for approval. Since most Canadians purchase their meds with their own cash, or their private employer has a drug plan, the CADTH Common drug review has no effect whatsoever.

In summary, there is one safety review of drugs, very similar to the FDA.

There is a secondary review for drug efficiency, by the Common Drug Review for listing on provincial formulary or dug plan.

CADTH Common Drug Review (CDR)

Once Health Canada has approved a drug for use in Canada, the country’s public drug plans must decide if the drug will be eligible for public reimbursement. The CADTH Common Drug Review (CDR) plays an important role in their decision-making processes.

Through the CDR process, CADTH conducts thorough and objective evaluations of the clinical, economic, and patient evidence on drugs, and uses this evaluation to provide reimbursement recommendations and advice to Canada’s federal, provincial, and territorial public drug plans, with the exception of Quebec.

Reviews are undertaken for new drugs, as well as existing drugs approved for new indications. To shorten the time between Health Canada regulatory approval and a CADTH reimbursement recommendation, a CDR application may be made while a drug is still being reviewed by Health Canada; however, the CADTH drug reimbursement recommendation is not issued until Health Canada approves the drug for use in Canada.

https://www.cadth.ca/about-cadth/what-we-do/products-services/cdr

JHan

(10,173 posts)
60. Yes and the wait is a flaw in the system which is why I mentioned it:
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 09:46 AM
Jan 2017

And connected it to what we can learn from the Canadians w.r.t the speed of affordable quality drugs are available to consumers. And it is still part of an "approval" process, my intent was never to connect it to safety. That is done at the federal level.

*Edit, I think I see the confusion where I wasn't clear ... "all provinces have to green-light federal approval of drugs and each province has different approval periods"

Will edit.

OneBlueDotBama

(1,432 posts)
61. Again....
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 09:59 AM
Jan 2017

The provincial review has to with efficiency and pricing, exactly in the same manner the US does for those who's medications are paid for by a State or Federal reimbursement. It has no effect whatsoever on private citizens purchasing drugs, or those with health insurance being reimbursed for their purchase.

Meaning if a private citizen has a prescription filled at their local pharmacy and it's not listed on their provincial formulary, they will get their prescription filled if the drug has been approved by health Canada for safety, that being has a NOC and DIN, notice of compliance and drug identification number.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
64. And again......."the provincial review has to do with efficiency and pricing"
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 10:26 AM
Jan 2017

AND the drug's quality.

But the larger point is the sluggishness, even at the federal level, the approval process in Canada is slower than ours. Yes, of course Canadians have access to drugs not on the formulary of their province but also federal approved, but these drugs typically aren't marketed aggressively, limiting access. Which is why manufacturers, especially generic manufacturers, like getting their drugs listed on the formulary.

OneBlueDotBama

(1,432 posts)
68. It's complicated...
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 11:04 AM
Jan 2017

I don't see where drugs either off patent or on patent are marketed aggressively in Canada. If a drug formulation is approved by health Canada's Therapeutics Products Directorate and have to prove their generic drug is as safe and effective as the patent med. They also have to prove to the CDR that their med is absorbed as well as the patent variety. Essentially if the patent medication changes their formula slightly to extend their patent (evergreening) and thru various means encourage docs to Rx the patent variety, some Provinces will go with the original formula generic version. Most generics are manufactured in Canada and if the demand was there, I'm sure they could ramp up production to address US demand.

Of note I did attend a conference at the NIH maybe ten years ago where importation of Canadian meds was the topic. I was approached by a rep working for Rudy Giuliani asking me if Bernie Kerik could speak with me. Roody was apparently all about middle eastern terrorists using drug importation as a method of financing their terror networks. Bernie asked me about the MCC (Mennonite Central Committee) having ties to a Canadian online pharm and if they were a terrorist org... I laughed in the moron's face. I later found out that Roody had scored a multi-million buck contract from the Feds to research terrorist orgs.

It seems there is much BS about this topic being spread, as if was years ago. The problem is US big pharma gouging patients with the approval of American politicians of all stripes. Toss in aggressive astroturfing by big pharma to use patient advocacy to promote their products. PR & consulting companies will regularly have so called patient advocates show up at politicians offices pleading their case to have this medical therapy approved quickly by the FDA and listed on formularies. Of course this operation is tied in with funding the pols ability to stay in office.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
69. That Roody anecdote shouldn't floor me but it did..
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 11:57 AM
Jan 2017


"It seems there is much BS about this topic being spread, as if was years ago. The problem is US big pharma gouging patients with the approval of American politicians of all stripes. Toss in aggressive astroturfing by big pharma to use patient advocacy to promote their products. PR & consulting companies will regularly have so called patient advocates show up at politicians offices pleading their case to have this medical therapy approved quickly by the FDA and listed on formularies. Of course this operation is tied in with funding the pols ability to stay in office."


In our case, I often wonder if there's some regulatory capture going on. I'd like to see the involvement of more independent experts in green-lighting drugs, preventing pharmaceutical companies hording and preventing access to their patents ( especially in the case of HIV medicine or other life saving drugs like Insulin) and a bunch of other reforms. It seems these companies can enjoy monopolizing the market, price gouge and get away with it every time. I remember reading a good suggestion about divestment during the Shkreli horror show..

"If a sole manufacturer like GSK decides to divest a small product, as part of the contract terms it can put limits to the potential price increases that the buyer can make over a set period of time, say 10 years. This would discourage Shkreli-like behavior.

Big Pharma companies can make a conscious decision NOT to divest small products for which they are the only provider. This would add complexity as Big Pharma has a number of such products in its portfolio, but it would prevent these situations from happening." http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2015/09/21/heres-a-way-for-pharma-to-prevent-outrageous-generic-price-increases-and-help-its-reputation/#7bdea9173187

OneBlueDotBama

(1,432 posts)
70. Trying to keep track of....
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 12:27 PM
Jan 2017

What company has a license to sell this drug and another license to sell the same drug in another country under a different brand name is a monumental task at best.

With Insulin, Banting and his group sold the patent to the U of T for a dollar, for the good of mankind.

As for Shkreli, there is an area where drug compounders like Three Rivers should step in as they have in the past for HCV meds.

The biggest problem is big pharma will not let go of their cash cow and they have the money to ensure things remain favorable to them.

Toss in big pharma has a nasty habit of dropping cohorts from their trials when they don't respond to their med and generally just say they left the trial, meaning the info the FDA or whomever the org is that tests for safety has faulty info to work with.

Having worked in the industry in Canada and the US, I'm personally often sickened by what big pharma gets away with on many levels, from drug development, to trials, to un-sterile manufacturing facilities to pricing and not to forget marketing.

brer cat

(26,479 posts)
63. Thank you, JHan.
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 10:14 AM
Jan 2017

This is by far the best OP I have seen on this topic. Time and energy are being wasted trashing Booker rather than discussing the issues involved. I personally think our legislators need to develop a comprehensive plan to provide affordable drugs without piggybacking on Canada, which is a lazy solution at best. Affordable drugs without safeguards are a recipe for waste, fraud, and disaster as Cory Booker knows but some people seem to ignore.

BlueMTexpat

(15,502 posts)
67. This ...
Sun Jan 15, 2017, 10:59 AM
Jan 2017
If Bernie Sanders is serious about reducing drug prices, he should stop smearing his colleagues for rejecting his flawed amendment and instead start listening to them.




Bernie is mostly about Bernie, IMHO.

coco22

(1,258 posts)
74. I don't like him ..
Mon Jan 16, 2017, 02:28 PM
Jan 2017

never did before or after this.No Thanks. You will never convince me or others I know. Main reason : He always wants to be the center of attention and thinks he is leading a movement ,like Trump.

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