I do have some family members that are and know a few others but they all know they need to keep their shit to themselves when around me.

You need to know a better class of white people my friend. I do...

I think that's more on account of the company I keep.

I'd agree that overall, somewhere like 90+ percent of white people are racist as shit. Sorry if that offends anybody; it's just my experience in life.

mind you, myself included, but the mere fact that we receive white privilege daily makes us part of the problem whether we like to admit it or not.

You can be part of the racist problem without being overtly racist. There is no debate about that, that is a fact.

Most people here at least acknowledge that white privilege exists and some degree of racism also exists in most.

And that being said, most fight against it.

You look at the % of white people who voted for Trump, and combine that with multiple studies showing racism and bigotry drove the Trump vote rather than "economic anxiety" and you can get a decent baseline for a guess. Then start adding in some Democrats, Libertarians, Greens, and unaffiliated racists, and you get a pretty significant number.

As a fellow overweight balding white guy, and one who grew up in the mid-south, I have some pretty deep exposure to this as well. There are three things that stick out for me.

The first is that racism can be either active or passive.
It's not enough to simply not harbor racism. We have to also not tolerate it.

The second is that one need not actually be racist in order for their opinions and beliefs to be the product of racism.
They need only be unaware of the racist origins of their opinions and beliefs.

And the third pertains to something that I wish more of my fellow white folk would properly grasp about white privilege...

White privilege does not mean that your life is made easy just because you're white.
It means that your life is not made harder just because you're not.

Personally, I'm kind of on a mission to figure out how to use my white privilege to eliminate white privilege.
And one of the ways my privilege manifests is that other white folk are generally more apt to listen to what I have to say about the matter than they are of what anyone not white does, because when I say it, it doesn't put them on the defensive.

I really do think that that little observation holds an important part of the secret to solving this problem.

It's a lot easier to grasp and accept that your beliefs are rooted in and for the purpose of furthering racism than it is to grasp and accept that you yourself are racist, especially when in fact you are actually anti-racist, but you're also ignorant of some truths that are under-appreciated.

this in this context for decades, I get push-back from most people.

Knee jerk reaction of being accused of being part of the racist problem, for the most part. Can you IMAGINE if an African American person were to take our position, ANYWHERE on the internet or in person in America.

They would be bombarded with hate.

I have observed one thing to be of absolutely critical importance in effectively communicating, especially about sensitive subjects...

Always strive to avoid putting the listener on the defensive, because the moment we are put on the defensive, our walls spring up and we lose a significant degree of our ability to listen objectively.

That's what's behind the way I talk about what white privilege is.
It's effective because it's a neutral observation, not an accusation.

It's always easier to digest how you can do something better than it is that you're wrong no matter how hard you're trying to be right.

It really is incumbent upon us to clean up our own house, so to speak, when it comes to this.
We have made tremendous strides in white folk being for equality, at least as a matter of concept.

But we still have a long way to go when it comes to how concept interfaces with practice.

We need look no further than the recent voter id fights to see this truth in the real world.
Supporting such laws has the effect of furthering systemic racism whether or not the one supporting them is racist.

And that will remain true whether we choose to see it or not.

At some point I'm sure

As an overweight balding white woman, I heartily - if sadly - agree with the OP and your points.

I believe that your points especially also apply to sexism.

Your responses really make this thread, well, better

That means that at least this week, in this context, I have succeeded in my constant mission.
I chose this handle partly because it relates to my real name, but also because improving things is my passion.

Being white and female and educated and, if not precisely in that "suburban women" demographic, close enough that it would be easy to assume I'd voted for [Redacted] if you didn't know me.

I am not sure how many people who self-identify as "white" have come to America from places that don't have an essentially racist culture, economy, and social order. But however many there are, those are the ones that are probably not racist. Depending on how long they've been here- if they were brought here as young children and raised here, that will not apply.

America is a racist culture, economy, and social order. By that definition, it privileges people who are (or look) white.

Raised in that culture, with that privilege, imbues us with racism so profoundly that we may not even be aware of all the levels and cues, ideas and assumptions, we have accrued. Being privileged with whiteness also acts as a disincentive to even examine our racism. The privilege, and the racism that creates and sustains it, are part of our identity.

The attempt to not be racist is relatively easy, up to a point: Understand the grosser manifestations of racism, the systemic evidence in various laws, regulations, etc., and work against those. Understand the grosser expressions of racism in word and action, and eliminate them from our own patterns of speech and lifestyle.

The next level is more difficult but still quite do-able: Stay alert for those grosser things among other white people and, where we have influence or power, identify them, speak against them, act against them.

The next levels are a little harder, at least I have found them so. My assumptions about racism came largely from the people who raised me, taught me, helped define my identity, and THEY WERE WHITE. Now, I'm lucky in that they were aware of racism and attempting to counter it insofar as that awareness went. I grew up in a "liberal" white family, went to a church that expressed the values of inclusion and equality. The people around me reinforced those values, supported the Civil Rights movement, tried to counter the grosser manifestations of racism on the legal level.

But, again, THEY WERE WHITE. I never had much contact with non-white people until I went to college, and, later, entered the workforce. And it was damn' hard to realize that all the assumptions I had about racism, which had been shaped in my white culture, neighborhood, and family, had NOTHING TO DO with the actual experience of racism.

It took quite a few knocks upside the head (metaphorically speaking) for me to realize that my white ideas about racism, while generally benevolent in intent, were only (at best) a good start. If I wasn't willing to listen, learn, and accept the experience of racism from the actual targets of racism, I was still pretty racist. Not mean racist. Not intentional racist, but still... racist.

It's taken me a long time to come to terms with the reality that on some level I will ALWAYS be racist, simply because of where I grew up (America) and what color my skin is. The best I can hope for is to continually try not to let my racism- and the privilege that created it- influence my awareness and assumptions about the world, and other people.

What's helped me most is my experience as a woman, and my awareness of misogyny and how it's shaped me and everyone else in this misogynistic culture, and how impossible it is for someone who hasn't experienced misogyny- someone who's benefited from male privilege- to over come that misogyny.

So yeah. Virtually all white people are racist, whether we "act" racist or not. Virtually all males are misogynist, whether they "act" misogynist or not. It's baked into a racist, misogynist culture and the privileges that culture bestows and the structure that culture maintains and defends to perpetuate itself.

Can we overcome it?

Yes. Over many generations.

To overcome racism, we have to listen to those who've experienced it, empower them, and follow their leadership.

To overcome misogyny, we have to listen to those who've experienced it, empower them, and follow their leadership.

Doing those things is as close as we can get to "not being racist" or "not being misogynist."

opinionatedly,
Bright

Last edited Fri Nov 2, 2018, 11:40 AM - Edit history (1)

That I have a knee and sometimes it jerks.

I'm not claiming sainthood.

This is as good a summary as i could hope for
my white ideas about racism, while generally benevolent in intent, were generally (at best) a good start

Im on my phone and can't copy paste very easily so i hope i didn't mangle your quote.

is for more whites/men to learn that real leadership doesn't mean always being in charge.
It means knowing when someone else should be in charge, because they're more qualified to the task at hand.

And I'll say that almost all of the white people I know are nominally racist to varying degrees simply due to acceptance of the status quo in their favor - whether they acknowledge it or not. Rich or poor, male or female.
They're not bad people. They're just privileged in a way that minorities aren't and act in public on the assumption that they don't have to worry about being put in their place at any time. Even I am guilty on occasion.
It's walking around without the assumption that we're going to get called out if we make a mistake or are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It's the automatic acceptance of our presence in most venues. It's that we as white people are considered "normal" - whatever we're doing, so when we go off the deep end and shoot up a place out of hurt fee-fees or political frustration, it will be a "surprise to everyone."
A minority hoards a cache of guns and ammo - must be a gang-banger or wanna be.
A white person doing the same is "a collector", a hunter, or exercising his/her second amendment rights - until s/he isn't and starts hunting fellow human beings.

It's just the way the status quo goes. The assumption of privilege due to being a member of the "normal race" is a subtle racism that almost everyone either experiences or holds.


Haele

I'm not going to leap to say, "I'm one of the good ones, though."

I have taken a few tests here https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

And while I "passed" (no bias) most of the tests, I didn't do too well on a couple of them.

On one of them I was right there with "most people". The test about age bias.

I had one that rated as "slight". The weight bias. This really surprised me. Me?

I also rate Asian Americans as more "foreign".

And when i sat with that, I knew in my heart that it was true. (I recommend anyone who thinks they get a Social Justice "A "rating to try.)



It's a spectrum. And everyone is somewhere, I think most of us can do some work.

I just have to keep working on it.

It's a hard subject, to be sure, and it's refreshing to see it being discussed objectively and with an aim toward resolution.
Perhaps we should further explore the blurry line between prejudice and racism.

I think we often overlook that "innocent" prejudice can have the practical effect of supporting or furthering both malicious and structural racism. And having those prejudices, even without any malice attached on our own parts, is a problem we should endeavor to remedy in ourselves.

with a few SMALL changes in address (lower Alabama).

It is disgusting what I have to put up with just to live in my hometown. I don't have to be friends with them and I can avoid (mostly) the racist relatives, but I see it daily. EVERY DAY. It is both saddening and maddening.

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen about race and white privilege, ever! I like "better" responses as well! Once we are aware that there is a lot we can do to fix where we are wrong, we can begin to start fixing, listening, and being better! Thanks once again MSgt!

questioner's definition of "racist," since almost always they have one in mind. If they do, I think it helps, then, to give a composite of haele's and better's observations above, at least for me. Because challenging definitions is usually a good starting point.

I agree with haele and better and, whenever the situation seems appropriate, try to get their ideas across, to see where the conversation goes.

From haele, that the "status quo" is white and mostly unconscious.

It's going to take some time to digest it all.

We as a culture are racist, misogynistic, homophobic and xenophobic at the very least. While I understand the level of cheating that went on to get the win, I can’t help but be disheartened by the Electoral College win. Otoh, I remain hopeful that those who were blind will start to see the cost of hate. Maybe they love a Latinx, or maybe a POC, or maybe a lbgtq, or maybe a Muslim, maybe those people will stop accepting hate as a norm and stand up. The allies of all the different groups really can save us, but only if they stand up to hate. Never an easy thing to do....

First of all I am not a sociologist and this is purely speculation. But I have formed some opinions from long times spent along the I-4 corridor in FL and also the mountains of NE TN and SW VA.
I agree that racism certainly does exist in adult populations at a high rate and is sometimes not even realized. I also have to look at what happens to young people in their formative years and who they seek to emulate. That leads me to wonder how that changes and when those changes begin to take place and become core values of a person..
Let's take upper age elementary through middle school and even high school. During these years I have seen many cross racial behaviors, especially among young whites. I currently live in a 97% Caucasian county in Appalachia. But the dress and behaviors here among many adolescents is very similar to what I observed in more urban settings. Music, dress, speech, societal views and so on. But that seems to be changing in my opinion. At some point many of those patterns diverge along cultural lines and I cannot explain why other than the previously fluid identities become more comfortable among certain groups. Whether this is based on parental/family history or individual self discovery I do not know. You could probably say similar things about gender identification.

This seems to me to have been a normal pattern in America for decades, until media amplification began to filter down into younger ages. It seems to me that the lines are being drawn at much earlier ages and the results are unfortunately somewhat permanent. My youngest memories included separate water fountains and KKK people passing out pamphlets on street corners in Central Florida. But once I was exposed to new ideas at a very major US university I changed completely. I also had the benefit of really good high school with people who were smarter than me. Some were conservative and some were not, but I learned to think for myself which has helped me throughout life.

Young people in the past few decades did not see what I saw. Their bubble is not the same in many cases.


Peer pressure is a very strong influence in building foundations of what our values are and will be. I believe that those foundations are now being forced upon young people earlier in life than they were in my formative years. Unfortunately they tend to stay. That goes a long way to explain why white nationalist movements among so-called well educated college students seems to be on the rise. Their core values have been firmed at an earlier age.

As I said, this is speculation on my part, so if you want to poke holes, no hard feelings. Just vote!

I spent a couple days putting my thougjts together

And i appreciate everyone answering me with such well reasoned responses.

I wear a hat, jeans and a flannel most times so I get the "must be one if us" like you do. I even have a southern drawl. Same thing with me buddy.

Thanx.

Is wake us up to what most people around us are really like. Pretty much my entire family is lost to me and that is if I can find it in my heart somehow to forgive them. If not they are all lost to me.

But I've cut several family members out of my life.

As well as friends and service comrades that i simply cannot associate with.

DEAD. TO. ME.

Trumpsterism is unforgivable

I have to say I completely agree with it, and I think that the willingness to completely ostracize someone is important for some things. For me, that thing was racism, long before the age of trump. When I was a teenager, one of my grandmothers was on a racist tirade, on Christmas day, and when I politely asked if we could change the subject since it was making me very angry, she called me a "n-lover" and went on about how it was her damn house and she could talk however she damn well pleased.

To which I replied basically that yes it is her house, and she can talk however she pleases, but that does not mean that I have to stay there and tolerate it, and I never set foot in that house again, or even spoke another word to her until a couple of decades later, after Alzheimer's had relieved her of her racism. That was something of an interesting experience for me, in that I observed first-hand the spectrum of racism/prejudice. My grandfather would use the n-word too, but I remember that when he used it, it carried the same significance as "bluejay"... just the name he had been taught for a thing, whereas with his wife, you could feel the resentment-bordering-on-hatred.

I think that's part of what is needed, is for a broader segment of society to simply not tolerate such open racism, from anyone for any reason. As it happened for me, my father took in a gay black kid who was disowned by his own family when I was very young. Didn't seem strange to me at all, he was just my darker-skinned brother. So I had the benefit of a familial relationship that made racism and homophobia both personally offensive to me. That, in fact, is why my grandmother's tirade was pissing me off so bad.

I think all of this nuance ties into why I have such an appreciation for the difference between being racist and being an inadequately aware opponent of racism, since I myself have been accused of being a racist, despite having actually disowned my own family members precisely because they actually were. It really made me evaluate the difference between racism and prejudice.

There are so many racists, that when I use the term, I mean hateful racists ... those who wish ill consciously, against another race. Most minorities would probably DREAM of only having to deal with hateful racists. The rest of us, with our soft racism, cause endless or problems, unknowingly at times, but With deadly results.

You spoke from your heart and experiences. I celebrate your candor and bravery. You did not retreat into a a comfortable corner.

Tiny has changed our country. I choose to celebrate our the better angels who are surfacing to make US a more perfect union.

Peace be with you.

I really did expect some drama and hollering.

Keep this discussion alive.

Keep this in your forebrain next time you interact with the Trumpsters.

Peace

attributed to Lila Watson: "If you have come here to help me, you are wasting your time.
But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." The sense of your liberation bound with mine is what I've always perceived of you.

You ask what will it take to wake up the rest of white people. It's exactly what you're doing here because you're a natural at getting like-minded white allies to go a little deeper and express themselves.

I've wondered in the past what it would take at DU for white allies to form their own group to share and educate each other about what they know, discuss feelings of being allies, tips for dealing with racism because I'm certain allies don't get much support IRL. A safe place for the some of the 99% of white DUers who wish to engage without trepidation or fear of weighing in at the AA forum but, of course, with some precepts.

But if that never happens, just want to say that you're doing an exceptional job here as a poster, an ally, and a moderator of this forum. Thanks!

Thank you.

I'm not a deep thinker.

But my personality and experiance has made me a clear eyed witness to all this fuckery.

"You can play a shoestring if you're sincere."
Aww, no shame, we all need your support for seeing through the veil

And I would disagree. You clearly are a deep thinker.
You're just a humble deep thinker.

And please, don't underestimate the value of merely thinking, especially objectively.
A large part of the problem we are discussing is the result of reflexively reacting instead of thinking.

There is definitely value in what you are trying to do here, in objectively illuminating truths that too many of us fail to make the effort to observe and contemplate. A compromised component can bring down a system to the same catastrophic effect regardless of whether the compromise is a function of sabotage or neglect.

Perhaps a good first step would be to start a thread in the AA forum, and ask for input on the idea of something along the lines of a "how to be a good AA ally / white awakener" sub-forum. I don't know whether or not that would be the appropriate venue for such discussions, but it does seem like an appropriate place to ask.

It's a very awkward subject, because while of course white people certainly shouldn't be trying to assume leadership of AA issues, there are at the same time some subjects where a coordinated message supported by the AA community may be most effectively delivered to a specific target audience by a white person, simply because there is no possibility for an unintended perception along the lines of "you are oppressing me", and thus some degree of reflexive defensiveness can be avoided.

Particularly that the AA forum would not be the most appropriate venue for those discussions, and I'll try as best I can to explain why without meandering too much.

Returning to Lila Watson's words that "your liberation is bound up with mine" is what I think is missing in this struggle. To me, white people/allies figuring out what their gain or self-interests are, besides any moral convictions, might be a powerful motivator when dealing with those who are angry and push-back or those who are in denial. I mean certainly all the moral reasonings in the world has done little to affect racism and inequalities.

And thinking in terms of gain may lessen guilt that always arises. I mean certainly all the guilting in the world has had little affect on repairing the mess.

I know what my self-interests are and they have little or no affect on you. But I/PoC can't do the work of determining what it means for white people individually and as a whole to exist in an anti-racist society. I think becoming better allies could start by exploring your self-interests, your skin in the game so that you're not coming to save me. And it could also start on the premise that just about every single social ill can be traced back to white supremacy; from who we wage perpetual wars on to poverty to rape culture/misogyny and the environment. I know the links are there and it would take a little work to find them, strengthen your convictions to help others see that they are us.

I hope that makes some kinda sense

Maybe the best I’ve ever seen on DU, and I’ve been around here from pretty much day one.

I’m a lot older than you, definitely not overweight, and still have my hair. I’m from deep east Texas, where racism was deeply imbedded in the culture. Even my parents were vocally racist, as were all my friends and some of the school teachers. I still to this very day get racist emails passed around by people from my high school class, even after I’ve asked them to stop.

I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I have learned a few lessons about racism.

Later on in my life, I earned a PhD from a very conservative Texas university and was recruited by a private university on the east coast. The kind of university that would have never have accepted me as a student but wanted me to teach there, go figure. I have never, even to this day, been able to shake my Texas drawl. Because of that, some of my fellow faculty I suppose just assumed I was racist. Soon after I met them they began the racist jokes and rants. These were people that would ultimately decide if I got tenure or not, but I said fuck it I’m not putting up with this shit anymore, career be damned. I took a stand and stood up to them. They actually respected that and later on made me associate dean of the graduate school. Lesson learned: stand up to racism, point it out and condemn it in a professional and civil way. The human heart always recognizes truth when it hears it.

While on my dean gig, I argued with faculty and administrators alike that we should accept more black students to our graduate school. It was a hard sell, they were afraid it would lower our average admission scores, the holy grail of graduate programs. I’ve always been pretty good at math so I convinced them by showing them the numbers. Lesson learned: facts matter. Even a hard hearted administrator cannot argue with truth.

Now that I’m old and worn out, but still have my hair, I moved to the mountains of northern New Mexico and built my little retirement home. I had help from several subcontractors, one of which began the racist bullshit as as he heard my Texas drawl. I’m pretty good at this by now so I fired his sorry ass on the spot. Lesson learned: money talks, don’t do business with racists.

So, I guess the big lesson is that while we can’t change our upbringing and the culture we were born in, we can change our actions and behavior. And maybe change some minds in the process.

Peace, brother.

Roadrunner

It's very odd - but when I offered up soft protests against the fuckery I was swamped with push back.

But when I'm loud and clear against them most of the trumpsters slink away.

of our privilege, how we got it and most importantly what is being done IN OUR NAMES now to keep it, mostly by rump and putin and mcconnell and GOP etc.

But that effort is not limited to the vile traitorous filth on the right, sadly.

Your comments are valued and will resonate. Well done, Sarge.

I'm sure that it would have been a blast.

But yeah, I wish we did.

I need to replace some of my Service friends who turned out to be Trumpster Trash

I had a great time in the ROK. Before, when I was at Bergstrom, I almost chose to get out after my first for. Osan gave me a reason to stay in.

But they gave me DC the second time and I couldn’t pass that up.

My 21 months in country was always one of my fondest memories. In spite of all the Beverly Midnights.

and share with you all a video that I think is incredibly poignant to this topic.
I strongly recommend watching until the end.

Enjoy!

We were taught that POC were inferior, genetically. That slaves were bred to be hard workers, and not for intelligence. In fact, the more intelligent, the more of a trouble maker they were for their owners. At about age 12 I started questioning this, and fighting with my father, who was the worst....and was promptly shut down, told to move the @#$! out.. I was called a "bleeding heart" because I cared about animals, and ALL people.

I have cut out a lot of my family and old family friends, who to this day continue their racist diatribes. I just can't be around that toxicity. Unfortunately, it means I am not close to my family of origin. I have many good memories, the racism isn't a part of.

I've made my own "family" with good friends and neighbors of all colors, shapes and sizes, all religions. I think there is hope for those who are born into racism and don't know any different, but infiltrating that family dynamic is TOUGH.

My brothers both went into the military and got a real awakening to the realities of racial integration, but both are still exceptionally racist when referring to "those people". Because "those people" are different than "my black friend Joe" or "my latina friend Marie". So they don't even realize they are doing it. The fact they have a black friend or a hispanic friend, is enough to absolve them of any perceived racism.

I wish I had the answers. Thanks for the thoughtful OP. You definitely got this gal thinking...

And thanks for sharing your story. It's inspirational, at least to me, to see stories of people who were born into and raised in racist environments having those aha moments, and consciously working to identify and overcome their subconscious biases. It demonstrates that though it is difficult and requires a great deal of intent practice, there is hope!

I started to wake up because of Football and wrestling in HS

I hung out with my teammates - so I interacted with more POC in a week than many of my cousins had ever even met.

I was still pretty racist - About where your Brothers are now. Then I did a career in the Air Force and I got a bit smarter on race than I had been.

I was still pretty racist though - make no mistake. Not an active or malevolent hatred of others unlike me but the unthinking passive racism that I'm hollering over in this OP.

But I have smart friends who argue with me.

I have a wife who insists that to treat any person with a lack of respect for their innate Humanity - What her religion calls their "Buddha Nature" is harmful to your self and to the environment you create for yourself.

And finally I am by nature and training an analyst - hell that word is in my job title.

I can't stop looking at situations and trying to figure things out.

And honestly, I am still a racist - I just try to recognize it when it comes up, and I try to analyze the root cause of my thoughts and attitudes when I'm being shitty.

Oh, and welcome to DU Prudence54. Good to have you on the team

It's evolution. We've developed instincts to fear, "the other/different." I'm sure everyone will privately admit to thinking something along the lines of, "Well, if those Black kids would pull their pants up," or, "Wow, that Mexican plays his music loud," or "Man, White people just can't dance," etc. Even telling a story about something frustrating that happened to you earlier in the day can be racist. I recently posted a funny story on FB about having a problem ordering in a Chinese restaurant, but I started to but eventually didn't say it was a Chinese restaurant because I realized that had no bearing on the story and doing so would be mean. The person who was taking my order was a teenage son of the owners, born in America, spoke perfect English, but he was just confused on how the specials worked. If I had mentioned he was Chinese, it would have taken away from the humor of the story, and some of my more asshole-racist, Trump-supporting family members would take away the wrong message.

The racism is always there. It's how we overcome it that matters. We need to fight against the overt, in-your-face racism and for the "big issues" - equal treatment under the law, voter rights, stopping police brutality, etc, but it's also catching yourself in those private moments when you think something but then tell yourself, "That's not being fair. You need to deal with people on an individual basis and not categorize."

TlalocW

I spent some time studying whiteness. Not white people. And the most non-racist white people around are still affected and influenced by whiteness as a social norm. We can’t get away from it. White people tend to claim merit for just not saying certain words, or having friends that they no longer consider to be of color, just friends after a time. In other words, we erase color—“colorblind” we call it, which is NOT the act of a anti-racist. We support standards of whiteness.

Being anti racist is a lot of work. What I notice with my white friends (I don’t have overt racists as friends) is they are not racist right to the point they get uncomfortable then the knee jerk defenses come out. And. It’s a then skin we wear.