Of the two alternatives, self-publishing seems the best because in both instances the biggest hurdle is knowledge of marketing worth and methods. Only, by submitting it to the hard to reach and know gatekeepers(agents, editors etc.), it spares one a lot of effort and MAY produce much better results, which best results seem to be rarer so far in the self publication arena. Nowadays the great independent slush pile costs little and be made to order for digital readers and on demand printing. Even advertising has some very inexpensive alternatives. Reaching your best readers seems easier. Not surprisingly, standing out in the crowd and getting bucketfuls of royalties is probably harder in the democratic marketplace.

I'd rather get the work out there immediately with technical help and modest marketing in online places like Amazon's Create Space than play the long guessing games with those big firms who take the biggest cuts IF they decide you fit their company marketing needs- while you essentially remain totally unread and unmarketed, perhaps for years as the readers for agents and houses dwindle, the unsolicited manuscripts multiply. Every hurdle is a high one- and not often visible.

Book trailers on Youtube deepen the puzzle. Mostly they never include a single line of actual text, as good as the writing may actually be. They seem to make all the books seem like weak, cheap, movie script proposals. I suspect no one wants a mere proposal anymore in fiction unless you have a track record, a big name or non-fictional hardcore expertise. The expect the finished work if only for saving themselves time and risk. but they don't want to have to take the time to read them all either.

in three or four months.

There are a TON of self-published e-books for sale, and it's hard to stand out among that crowd. I would advise you, if you're a first-time novelist, to try to land a regular publishing deal. Yes, it means getting an agent, which can be a long process, but anything worth doing is worth doing well.

Only if you can't find an agent/publisher should you go the self-publishing route.

I just need to put the proposal together, but I can get some queries mailed out starting next week, after I clear my desk.

Never write:

"I've written a fictional novel."
"My mom/husband/critique group loves this book."
"It will be more successful than Da Vinci Code."
"It's the best thing you'll ever read."

Agents hate that.

I just took a Webinar class with WD and I'm getting my query critiqued.

Keeping it down to one page is the hardest thing ever!

As a veteran query writer, I think you should jump into it straightaway with "who is this person, and why is he/she in trouble?"

Queries don't require the whole plot, just the high-tension focus. The best examples of query writing are actually on book jacket flaps. Check out the novels in your local bookstore, and read the flap copy. It's usually only 4 or 5 paragraphs, which is about what you'd want in a 1-page query. Those are written with the idea of enticing a reader to buy the book -- exactly what yOU'RE trying to do.

The other part of the query that was challenging was listing all of my writing accomplishes. Erp, none to speak of. I don't think that anonymous entries to the newspaper count.

So, what is your genres and what kind of success did you have with your queries? I'm looking to paper my walls with rejections. THAT would be a big step for me.

Don't worry about your writing accomplishments. Every writer starts off as unpublished, and agents know this.

I no longer have to write queries because I sell based on my track record, and I have to say, queries are damn hard to write. So I'm glad I'm done with those.

And thank you for taking the time to share information and advice. I'll continue to post in the forum to relay the progress in my attempt to get published. Please feel free to send nuggets of info my way.

I'll be looking up the publisher in my Writer's Market book to see if there's a fit.

If I can answer them, I will.

I happen to think it's the best time ever to be a writer, because no matter what the format, more people are reading and there's never been a bigger need for content providers.

However, there's a lot of god-awful BAD content out there in the form of self-published e-books, and there's so much dreck a truly good book will have trouble getting noticed. Which is why a first-time author is still better off with a traditional publishing contract, because it's something of a seal of approval.

No matter what bitter unpublished writers will tell you, New York publishers really ARE looking for hot new voices. They aren't there to shut you out -- they're hoping to find worthwhile manuscripts, because that's how they earn their bread and butter. An agent is now an integral part of that winnowing process (unless you write romance -- there are a number of romance publishers who do take unagented manuscripts).

I know plenty of debut authors who got in the door. All it takes is a great manuscript.

was, which publishing houses do you recommend? And why do they call them Legacy publishers? I looked it up on the internet and it was information overload.

This term sprang up recently on authors' blogsites, and refers simply to traditional publishing.

The big names include Random House, Simon & Schuster, Harper Collins, MacMillan, Hachette, and the Penguin group. Smaller, but still a major player, would be St. Martin's Press. Keep in mind that within these publishing houses are imprints such as Bantam Books, which is part of Random House. So if you're published by Bantam or Doubleday or Dell, you're still part of Random House.

All will offer a traditional advance against royalties. How big a deal you get depends on your genre, your manuscript, and how enthusiastic the acquiring editor is.

Advances can range anywhere from $5,000 to -- well, the sky's the limit. Every so often you encounter a rare debut author who nets a seven-figure deal for a first book.

I really appreciate the head start. I will look them up in the WM book and add them to my list if I think I have something they might be interested in. I'm finishing up on a distraction right now, but plan to complete it by week's end. And then all next week I'll start hitting the query pavement.

Will post my progress as soon as I have something to report.

Thanks again!

for the gatekeepers.

Every time I have bought a self-published novel I wind up appalled at the mistakes in grammar, usage, continuity and just about everything else. The errors aren't on every page, because the author has tried hard to make it as good as possible, but without an outside eye, all too often a lot slips through.

It's the Wild West out there right now, with a lot of really AWFUL stuff being self-published. Consumers will soon realize that a real publisher's imprint is a seal of approval, and they'll avoid the author wannabes who really can't turn out polished work.

I have heard from editors that the advent of computers was awful from their perspective. Now a lot of the tedium of typing had been eliminated, and they were getting far more submissions than before, and most of the increase was of truly dreadful stuff.

Examine some first manuscripts by some famous writers, even with track records and the editing service may not be perfect but so essential that that becomes another skill probably only another skillful eye can mend- and still there is a marketing skill that may not be in the mi length, substance, appeal).

All these posts pretty much confirm what I feel the situation is regardless of the mushrooming of real self-publishing opportunity. Agents to legacy publishing= greater chance of readership and financial reward out of the universal slush pile. Yet if you want to get your work out(and still not burn your chances while in that pile) self-publishing is an excellent (now cheap and freely aided) way to learn and hone your notion to potion skills). It is also a possible way into Legacy publishing if you earn it the hard way. And it MUST be earned or at least proven successful above its peers.

The best book would be about how to write books to earn instant money? Maybe it is about finding readers or letting readers find you. A viral book video would be a great way out, but just take a look at even legacy publisher book trailers on Youtube and how few hits they get. Still, it is available and cheap to do.

If you keep running to everyone else for every writing and publishing aspect there are a lot of middlemen in the money end of things regardless of the free help- which is exactly why so much free help is being given, even taken by force. The tide of would be writers keeps one from cursing the time consuming, costly gleaners.

Who can know, but I believe the slush pile in general is less and less read, even queries. That the real slush pile of self-finished books is not examined by Legacy or agents either except for the biggest sellers/winners and maybe only after they took that record simply to the print houses themselves.
I have seen good writing and better books for the genre in that pile, but those usually are from writers already with success in print who want to expand profit and opus. They are not separate, although there should be a separate category for these people with a track record and THOSE whom they may recommend because being smaller fry and independent they have the time and generosity to boost the beginner.

The ordinary reader and agents aren't going to systematically search the currents in this ocean to discover the good stuff anytime soon. Lots of wasted talent and opportunity rare though it may be.

"The ordinary reader and agents aren't going to systematically search the currents in this ocean to discover the good stuff anytime soon. Lots of wasted talent and opportunity rare though it may be."

Trust me, agents are looking for clients and they do read queries. The problem is, most query letters suck.

Most editors and agents can tell, within a paragraph, whether a writer has "it." I've read enough horrible manuscripts to be able to recognize, within a very short time, whether someone really has the chops to write a decent manuscript.

As for writing books to make instant money, the best way is simply to write a good book. That's it.

well-known author-editor of the genre (the genre was science fiction, the author editor Fred Pohl) who was also looking over our work, told one of us quite bluntly that if the story we were looking at had been submitted to him for publication, he would not have read past the first page. Here, in this workshop, he was going to read the entire thing and offer his suggestions, but his bluntness about the fact that the professional editors are not going to be as forgiving as one's friends and family, was important.

Proposals are for non-fiction and are generally not done for fiction as fiction agents/publishers expect to see a finished product before they will consider the work anyway. Non-fiction is sometimes considered on spec(through the proposal process).

The exception would be a successful fiction author who proposes their next book to a publisher before writing it, but I expect that would be a less formal process than the non-fiction book proposal process.

So, you won't find books on developing fiction proposals. Once the work is finished, you simply perfect your synopsis and query and start sending it out. It makes the synopsis and query much more critical in the fiction writing business, because that's the only way we get published through traditional means.

As for self-publishing, if you choose to go that route, you may want to consider paying a professional editor or hiring editing services to give your first few chapters or your entire book a good once over. You'll pay anywhere between $500 and $1500 for reputable editing services (depending on the length of your book and the service you choose, but it will be worth it if you're self-publishing.

The Department of Continuing Studies at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, offers book proposal writing workshops and many more online.
http://continuingstudies.wisc.edu/lsa/online/writing/index.html

They also have editing services available for a fee per page.
http://continuingstudies.wisc.edu/lsa/writing/critique.asp

I'm not affiliated with them, but I have attended their workshops and plan have used their critique services. They do a good job, but you might find something similar closer to home, wherever you are.

Good luck with your projects!

On edit: Look for a writers guild (available by genre or for literary fiction) that you can join. They are great at tracking the good, the bad and the ugly in the editing/publishing world, will keep you on top of the latest scams, and will help direct you toward the kinds of things writers like you need to get published. There is often a fee for membership, but it's worth it. I'm a member of a genre fiction guild that offers a searchable index and up-to-date contact information for agents and publishers for my genre, online writing workshops, a forum for questions just like you're asking here, and the latest news on the publishing world, from scams to court rulings to copyright changes and more. It's more than worth the $100 per year to be a member.

I think that writers guild will turn out to be very valuable because quite a few of the agents in Writers Market claim to come across new writers through referrals.

If, based on your proposal, an agent were to request to see the novel, he or she would expect to read a polished manuscript, not a first draft. If you haven't done this already, I suggest you study books on self-editing and plotting. It's a cliche, but you only have one chance to make a great first impression.

www.absolutewrite.com is a website with a lot of good information for writers. Good luck!

It's part of the reason why I never finished one before now. But this story, I kept returning to the beginning to make sure that I leave enough clues in the beginning. And, it's off to a copy editor relative.

Since the four agents I mailed the query to are slooow in responding, it's a safe bet that I'll have plenty of time to look at it again before I send the next batch of queries.

They always want a completed manuscript, in my experience. I think self-publishing via ebooks is going to become very valuable. If you go with Itunes they take 30 percent and you'll get 70, as opposed to the 5 or 7.5 you'll get from a regular publisher and really the only thing a regular publisher brings tot he table is promotion. And often they don't promote the books they publish anyway, counting on you the author to make contacst at various outlets such as universities.