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MineralMan

(147,569 posts)
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 01:23 PM Sep 2018

One thing at a time. If an institution does harm on an institutional scale,

it deserves the fate it deserves. It stands on its own in that. What other institutions do is not at issue. One case at a time.

Trying to diffuse the harm done by one organization by pointing out that other organizations have similar issues accomplishes nothing. It merely diffuses the issue. There is no solution that is aided by misdirection and substitution.

An organization is what it is. It could be religious, commercial, public, or private. It is that organization, not another one. We look at individuals as individuals. We need to look at institutions and organizations in the same way. Each stands on its own merits or is destroyed by its own faults.

There is nothing wrong with focusing on the wrongdoings of an organization. There is nothing to be gained by pointing out similar problems in other organizations. We need to deal with each on its own.

Whataboutism is a common diffusion method. It's very popular with people who are trying to somehow excuse the failings of an organization by pointing at the failings of another. That doesn't work. It's inappropriate. Instead, we should deal with each failing organization in turn. Diffusion does not change the evil that is done...it simply distracts from it.

This is the Religion Group. We discuss religion and religious organizations here. That is the group's focus. Let's not divert from that focus by diffusing harm through pointing at other types of organization.

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One thing at a time. If an institution does harm on an institutional scale, (Original Post) MineralMan Sep 2018 OP
+1 And denying you are excusing behavior while engaging in such tactics marylandblue Sep 2018 #1
Exactly. MineralMan Sep 2018 #2
This right here has been repeated and repeated: trotsky Sep 2018 #3
Whataboutism is the refuge of those who have no real argument. MineralMan Sep 2018 #4
I understand our apologists are on a mission Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #5
Well, you know, I don't think that's really an issue MineralMan Sep 2018 #6
I don't see why not. Mariana Sep 2018 #8
None as far as I can tell. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #9
How interesting. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #7
So it's not OK to examine behavior and deduce motive? Major Nikon Sep 2018 #10
I engage in it when discussing the tactics of the choir, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #12
And then whine incessantly when reciprocity happens Major Nikon Sep 2018 #13
Apply what you said to yourself. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #14
Nobody else is claiming a personal attack over your 11th commandment bullshit Major Nikon Sep 2018 #15
Interesting how your various attempts at analysis stop short of your own door. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #16
Horseshit Major Nikon Sep 2018 #20
Indeed, it is. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #22
Ah, a clever repackaging of the old "I'm rubber, you're glue line" Major Nikon Sep 2018 #33
No, simply pointing out the obvious. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #38
Sure, hard to get more obvious than repeating exactly what I just told you Major Nikon Sep 2018 #40
The 11th Commandment bullshit is bullshit. Mariana Sep 2018 #18
I also post negative stories. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #21
But your imaginary 11th Commandment is about positive stories. Mariana Sep 2018 #26
So your ignoring of the negative stories, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #28
You brought up your silly 11th Commandment, Gil. Mariana Sep 2018 #29
Gil appears to have invented another variation of whataboutism marylandblue Sep 2018 #32
Yes, people who disagree with you are allowed to post here, too. Mariana Sep 2018 #17
And if they engage in certain tactics, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #19
... and then you squeal "personal attack" Major Nikon Sep 2018 #24
Is using the word "squeal", normally applied to a pig noise, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #27
See my post on Guillaumeb's Fallacy marylandblue Sep 2018 #35
If you are trying to be ironically funny you succeeded brilliantly Major Nikon Sep 2018 #36
There are groups on DU for sensitive religious people. Mariana Sep 2018 #25
Utter nonsense. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #39
Your tactics also get pointed out. Does that bother you? marylandblue Sep 2018 #34
It is very hard to avoid feeling attacked when one has set out to defend an institution Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #11
Point out such attempts. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #23
Lulzd. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #30
Confirming my point. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #37
I'm glad you found my observations interesting. MineralMan Sep 2018 #31

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
1. +1 And denying you are excusing behavior while engaging in such tactics
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 01:27 PM
Sep 2018

furthers any putative goal towards excusing the behavior.

MineralMan

(147,569 posts)
2. Exactly.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 01:30 PM
Sep 2018

Pretending that you are not attempting to distract attention from wrongdoing doesn't work if you ARE attempting to do that.

I suggest that anyone who is doing that should stop. It's not going to work and we all see through the attempt.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
3. This right here has been repeated and repeated:
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 01:43 PM
Sep 2018
This is the Religion Group. We discuss religion and religious organizations here. That is the group's focus. Let's not divert from that focus by diffusing harm through pointing at other types of organization.


But some individuals choose to instead try and minimize any "bad news" concerning religion through whatever methods they can - whataboutism, false equivalencies, straw men, accusing individuals of having an "agenda," etc.

Fortunately right now it's mainly just ONE individual trying to do that - and he's getting no support, despite his claims to having a massive invisible fan club.

MineralMan

(147,569 posts)
4. Whataboutism is the refuge of those who have no real argument.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 01:48 PM
Sep 2018

Diversion is their only hope.

As for "invisible fan clubs," they do exist, and are made up of people who can no longer post here, I think. Some people who cannot post still have DU Mail privileges, I believe and anyone can read posts here.

I'm sure there is support coming in, but it's misdirected through a poor spokesperson.

Voltaire2

(14,700 posts)
5. I understand our apologists are on a mission
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 01:56 PM
Sep 2018

but do their gods really want them to defend child abusers?

MineralMan

(147,569 posts)
6. Well, you know, I don't think that's really an issue
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 02:00 PM
Sep 2018

with them. I have this sneaking suspicion that it's all about the argument, really, rather than the substance.

Christianity, in whatever form, isn't always about gods and the offspring of gods. Often, it's about organizations, influence, and sometimes money. I have long suspected that true faith is not what drives organized religion in the first place. There are some very smart people involved in those organizations - too smart to fall for weak apologetics, really.

Now, that doesn't mean that all of their followers are equally bright, of course...wink wink, nudge nudge...

Mariana

(15,094 posts)
8. I don't see why not.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 04:57 PM
Sep 2018

Is there any indication that said god(s) disapprove of child abusers, or of the defense and protection of same?

Voltaire2

(14,700 posts)
9. None as far as I can tell.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:00 PM
Sep 2018

There certainly is no evidence of divine disapproval. No smiting. Nothing.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
7. How interesting.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 04:48 PM
Sep 2018

A personal attack disguised as a post about tactics and such.

And again, a misuse and misunderstanding of the tu quoque fallacy.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
13. And then whine incessantly when reciprocity happens
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:09 PM
Sep 2018

At least you are consistently self-righteous and hypocritical.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
20. Horseshit
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:53 PM
Sep 2018

Nobody else is crying personal attack over your made up rule which you use ad nauseum to ascribe nefarious motives to numerous members of this group. Then when numerous people point out your constant efforts to defend and divert from RCC child rape amounts to apologia, you get all butthurt and cry personal attack.

Most people are going to perceive that behavior as childish at best. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. Most learn that by primary school.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
22. Indeed, it is.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:55 PM
Sep 2018

Speaking of your response, that is.

I have pointed out the various group attacks, as well as the focus on theists going back to 2012. And when I do so I am accused of digging up the past. Sorry, the written record here supports my analyses and contradicts your own attempt.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
33. Ah, a clever repackaging of the old "I'm rubber, you're glue line"
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 09:16 PM
Sep 2018

Who could have ever anticipated banality?

Mariana

(15,094 posts)
18. The 11th Commandment bullshit is bullshit.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:48 PM
Sep 2018

Gil does, in fact, post positive stories about religion and religious people in the Religion group. As far as I know, none of his posts of that nature have been removed. He has not been blocked from this group, nor has he been banned from DU. The only conclusion to draw is that the 11th Commandment he cites is a figment of his imagination.

Mariana

(15,094 posts)
26. But your imaginary 11th Commandment is about positive stories.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 06:01 PM
Sep 2018

You should remember this, Gil, since you made it up in the first place.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
28. So your ignoring of the negative stories,
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 06:03 PM
Sep 2018

which I have labelled bad news, is part of supporting your meme?

Mariana

(15,094 posts)
29. You brought up your silly 11th Commandment, Gil.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 06:17 PM
Sep 2018

If I post about your silly 11th Commandment, there's no reason for me to mention pink flamingos, or oil painting, or the negative stories you post, because those things are irrelevant. If I post about your silly 11th Commandment, I post about your silly 11th Commandment.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
32. Gil appears to have invented another variation of whataboutism
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 07:29 PM
Sep 2018

Now instead of asking about the bad others have done, he asks about the good he himself has done. Like being caught speeding, then asking the cop, "What about all the times I wasn't speeding."

Mariana

(15,094 posts)
17. Yes, people who disagree with you are allowed to post here, too.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:41 PM
Sep 2018

How unspeakably awful that must be for you.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
19. And if they engage in certain tactics,
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:52 PM
Sep 2018

I will point that out.

Is it unspeakably awful for you when I do so?

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
24. ... and then you squeal "personal attack"
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:57 PM
Sep 2018

When someone points out what your behavior is.

Since you neglected to meantion that part I will point it out.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
27. Is using the word "squeal", normally applied to a pig noise,
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 06:02 PM
Sep 2018

a personal attack?

I was accused of defending the RCC, ironically enough in a post where I call sexual predation a crime, and the cover up worse.

Is that accusation a personal attack, or is it a demonstration of tota misreading by the accuser?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
35. See my post on Guillaumeb's Fallacy
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 09:23 PM
Sep 2018

I think what we are looking for is an admission that this cover-up is worse than other cover-ups. Many people think so, including Catholics. Read the grand jury reports for evidence.

Mariana

(15,094 posts)
25. There are groups on DU for sensitive religious people.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:59 PM
Sep 2018

They were set up by and for privileged religious people like you, Gil, who just can't tolerate hearing differing opinions or disagreement about religious matters. There's only one group that allows the kind of discussion we have here, and it appears that you consider that to be one too many.

Voltaire2

(14,700 posts)
11. It is very hard to avoid feeling attacked when one has set out to defend an institution
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:01 PM
Sep 2018

that is setting world records for child abuse. I feel your pain.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
23. Point out such attempts.
Thu Sep 6, 2018, 05:56 PM
Sep 2018

We both know that you will not, mainly because such posts of mine do not exist.

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