Religion
Related: About this forumChina's repression of Uighurs won't stop until the international community intervenes
From the article:
Tursuns experience of family separation, threats, violence, re-education and torture at the hands of the Chinese government puts a human face on these abuses. More than that, it makes clear that the communist regime is not prepared for a woman like Turson. The repression, she said, only made me more confident in my identity.
Turson, who wore a headscarf tied at her neck, said she was forbidden in China from wearing the hijab. Most other forms of Muslim devotion are also proscribed.
To read more:
https://religionnews.com/2018/12/04/chinas-repression-of-uighurs-wont-stop-until-the-international-community-intervenes/
Intolerant behavior.
Mariana
(14,965 posts)What do you think should be done about it, Gil, and who do you think should do it?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But political will is lacking because, in part, China is a huge economic player.
My view.
Yours?
Mariana
(14,965 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)As was done with Iran.
Again, what do you think should be done?
Mariana
(14,965 posts)How could the UN enforce any kind of effective action against China?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And they generally do.
Sanctions were a huge force in South Africa.
Mariana
(14,965 posts)South Africa is not really a valid comparison, and neither is Iran. How would sanctions against China be enforced?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Mariana
(14,965 posts)If you don't want to talk about what the international community can do to protect the Uighurs in China, why did you post this here?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And I suggested options, and asked your opinion.
So, feel free to respond with your own view of what should or could be done.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You posted it for the same reason you post any news about the Chinese government's actions here in the Religion forum: to try and make a false equivalence. The whole point is for you to be able to say "See? Atheists are just as intolerant as the religious!" Which again is attacking some sort of straw man because no one has ever said atheists CAN'T be intolerant. It's just part of your agenda to dismiss persecution that is happening specifically *BECAUSE* of religious beliefs by waving your hands and saying "Religion is never to blame! PEOPLE are always the problem!" It sounds exactly like the NRA saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!" Well sure, but they're a lot more effective at it when they use guns, aren't they?
Read the article, notice the references to religion.
This is not political repression, repression of political ideas. It is repression of a belief system by adherents of another belief system.
And the re-education camps are not special college courses for these people.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You're the best, g-man! I can always count on you to humiliate yourself.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Note that some Uyghur regions are separatist and others are not. The separatist areas are being repressed more than the pro-Chinese areas.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But in general, the Chinese Government, while officially allowing religion, demands control of every aspect of the exercise of religion.
Classic totalitarian and intolerant behavior. But in this case, the intolerant ones are not theists.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Since covers such a broad range of behavior, from mere disapproval to mass murder. The Chinese government has always been anti-religious. But enforcement is variable based on the perceived threat to the government. It may all be "intolerance" to you, but to the people being oppressed, it makes a big difference.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And it continues to happen.
And yes, the Chinese Government officially allows for religious behavior, but in practice, reality shows something else.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Made in China.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)It's actually an industrial broom from U-line, American made and $63.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)is a well known funder of right wing politicians.
So shopping there supports a right wing Trumper.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)So most of their customers have business needs or their boss tells them where to shop. And WalMart is not so great either.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Just pointing out some information.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Jesus Christ gil, really?
He stated a fact - that the separatist groups are being repressed more than the pro-Chinese ones. That's a FACT, not an opinion.
No wonder you struggle to be taken seriously, and have to lash out with insults and attacks.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)He's not here anymore, though.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Goblinmonger is another name from the past. And there are others.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Considering it has nothing to do with the actual topic at hand.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)I'm still not.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Interesting how they are never mentioned, but when its done for secular reasons we hear all about it.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)The hijab just covers the hair. The niqab is the veil and the burqa has just a screen to see out. The niqab and burka are banned in some Muslim countries because of fears of terrorism, so even in Muslim countries, it's for a secular reason.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)No evidence.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)You should thank him for informing you.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)Even in 1967-8, when i was stationed in Turkey, The hijab was prohibited in government facilities in that country. Turkey was a secular country with a secular government, even at that time.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)gtar100
(4,192 posts)For posting articles that are of interest and ones I would normally not see.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)I find DU to be a great source for information that I might never see otherwise.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)It isn't "intolerance". It is repression.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And a fear of competing belief systems. Marxism versus theism, with the powerful being Marxists.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Marxism is, though. Perhaps you're making progress.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Perhaps it is because the Communist Party of Chinathe only party in Chinadoes not like competition and presents a demonstrable history of treating all dissenting groups, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, with similar hostility.
Perhaps your persistent attempts to qualify China's treatment of these people as one of atheism's great moral failings are pretty fucking despicable and maybe you should turn off the computer and take account of how you got to this point. Because, damn dude.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I think we need to be honest here and say that if that hasn't happened yet, it's simply not going to.
That he could not only seriously advance the ridiculous example of the Boston Atheists group kicking a Trump supporter out of their ranks as proof of "atheistic intolerance" but CONTINUE to cling to it, means he is likely incapable of such introspection.
OR, it's all worth it in his crusade against people who express negative opinions about religion. The ends justify the means. I think that's more likely.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Intolerance is one of Gil's go to words. Whatever is bad in the world can be blamed on "intolerance," as if people never fought over anything else.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Indictments of intolerance look great on the back of a Toyota and don't actually require you to do or say or think anything courageous, so it's perfect for the upwardly mobile Democrat looking to stick it to the man as inoffensively as possible.
NeoGreen
(4,033 posts)...baby Odin wants it that way?
Because suffering is all part of the plan?
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)Yup, that will do it.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)MineralMan
(147,334 posts)of philosophies that oppose it's own official philosophy. This seems more like a GD thread to me. It's about politics, not religion.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)makes it clear that the Uighurs are being persecuted because of their religion.
So it is an intersection of politics and religious freedom.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)that are opposed to that system. All. It's not about religion, Guy. It's about politics.
I did think of another way you could send a message, though. Boycott all Chinese products. Start a movement to get others to do that.
The man I work with most often is Chinese. He fled China to come to the US immediately after the Tienanmen Square incident. Not for religious reasons, but because he believed in democratic principles. He's not a believer in any religion. He was persecuted for his opinions, just like some people persecute people for their opinions here in the United States. He thinks things are better here, but is still aware of such repression. China doesn't like opposition to its political system, wherever that opposition comes from.
This is not a religious topic.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)The re-education camps, a subject of an earlier post, seem to be designed to re-educate people and eliminate adherence to another belief system.
Your one anecdotal example hardly refutes this example of systematic repression of a religious group.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)I'm far more concerned with repression right here in this country.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Interesting.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)So strawman bullshit
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Because it sounds like thats what youre alleging.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)So which is really more intolerant. Telling someone they cant wear a hijab, or telling someone they must wear a hijab.
Followup questions:
What does it say about someone who is obsessed over one of those things, but not the other? Is it really intolerance they are concerned about?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Does this example of intolerance toward religious believers represent a bad thing, or a good thing?
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Ill just chalk it up to yet another instance where you demand answers, but never provide them. Its not as if it isnt expected.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)and then demanded an answer.
Answer the question.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)Nothing, nada, zilch...
The Chinese Communist Party will repress ANYBODY who does not agree with them, OR who demonstrates they do not agree with them.
I have quite a few friends, close friends, in China. You know not of what you speak.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)He only has information from blogs.
Thank you.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)MineralMan
(147,334 posts)I do. I know and work with someone who left China due to repression. You have blog posts. Think about it.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But that does not make me an expert on China, or the well documented repression taking place there.
And in this instance, this particular instance, the repression is directed against members of a religious minority.
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)I also know 2 people from Lithuania.
And 1 Russian.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I mean, to say nothing of the fact that I've been to China a bunch of times over the last 18 years..., everywhere..
... my ex-wife is Chinese and has been all over Xinjiang..
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)He knows better...
pangaia
(24,324 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Classic intolerance from a dictatorial regime. Directed in this case against people of one faith. Thus, we have an intersection of intolerance and faith.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Did you forget Tibetans, Christians, GAYS, Democracy supporters, ANY political party other than the Communist Party, "ethnic minorities' with any or no particular 'religion', dissidents, human rights supporters, voting rights activists, film makers, composers, dance companies,
Ever try using Facebook or a thousand other URLs from mainland China? Without at LEAST a VPN?
Do you have any idea what the protests in 1989 were about? The protests in Beijing were actually a small part of it.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)other than to confirm that the Chinese Government, like totalitarian governments everywhere, tolerates no dissent and no other belief systems.
Unless they can control them.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Your credibility on the subject isnt worth much
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)No doubt. My colleague, who came here as a refugee, is a PhD neuroscientist. He fled, due to political persecution. But, of course, he knows nothing of China. Guillaumeb knows, because he reads religionnews.com. See? He is an expert on China. On everything, really. I'm in awe of him...
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And the Chinese Government.
Interesting exercise in logic.
One suggestion:
Have this unnamed colleague submit an informative article on this issue to a major publication. Link to that article.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Or religion news?
Go home. You're drunk.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)but hold up this unnamed colleague as his source.
That is indeed interesting. What do you think of that logic?
MineralMan
(147,334 posts)And the writer you quoted? My colleague was a repressed person. He sought and received asylum here. He knows about Chinese repression. You? Bubkes. I have known my colleague for 10 years. I don't know you at all.
Have you lived in China? Have you suffered state repression? No? I'll listen to someone who has, thanks. You're amazing, Guy!
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)The article interviewed actual Uighurs. Perhaps you should travel to China and educate them as to what they are experiencing.
Your logic in this matter is indeed unique.
And this colleague, is he an expert on the Uighurs? You might wish to ask him about that.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)It's been fought over for millenia, falling in and out of Chinese hands in a pattern that predates Islam.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And China is building new roads to extend it's influence beyond it's borders into Central Asia.
kelly1mm
(5,073 posts)MineralMan
(147,334 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But capitalism finds allies everywhere.