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guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:14 PM Dec 2018

China's repression of Uighurs won't stop until the international community intervenes

From the article:

In a statement, the Concerned Scholars on China’s Mass Detention of Turkic Minorities denounced the escalating atrocities facing Uighurs and called internment camps like the one Tursun was sent to a gross violation of human rights....

Tursun’s experience of family separation, threats, violence, re-education and torture at the hands of the Chinese government puts a human face on these abuses. More than that, it makes clear that the communist regime is not prepared for a woman like Turson. The repression, she said, “only made me more confident in my identity.”
Turson, who wore a headscarf tied at her neck, said she was forbidden in China from wearing the hijab. Most other forms of Muslim devotion are also proscribed.


To read more:


https://religionnews.com/2018/12/04/chinas-repression-of-uighurs-wont-stop-until-the-international-community-intervenes/

Intolerant behavior.
92 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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China's repression of Uighurs won't stop until the international community intervenes (Original Post) guillaumeb Dec 2018 OP
That is a bad situation, for certain. Mariana Dec 2018 #1
The UN is one forum. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #2
What do you think should be done? nt. Mariana Dec 2018 #5
Sanctions would be one option. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #6
China has veto power on the UN security council. Mariana Dec 2018 #10
Great powers can do as they wish. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #11
Yes, and China is a great power. Mariana Dec 2018 #12
That might make a good discussion in the general discussion. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #13
Do you not wish to discuss your OP anymore? Mariana Dec 2018 #16
To inform people of the issue. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #18
Bullshit. trotsky Dec 2018 #22
OK. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #26
Thank you for perfectly proving my point. trotsky Dec 2018 #29
Thank you for confirming my suspicion. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #36
Actually, it's mostly about nationalism marylandblue Dec 2018 #50
And you are free to take that position. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #57
I am getting a little tired of the word "intolerance" marylandblue Dec 2018 #74
The Uighurs might have their own word for it. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #75
My point is you are painting with too broad a brush marylandblue Dec 2018 #78
WalMart. $19.99. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #81
See, there you go again, you assume the country and the store, and ended up in the wrong place. marylandblue Dec 2018 #82
The owner of Uline, Richard Uihlein, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #83
Uline is an industrial supplier and they carry items that are difficult to find elsewhere marylandblue Dec 2018 #85
I understand. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #87
"you are free to take that position"? trotsky Dec 2018 #89
Rug used to do that stuff, too. MineralMan Dec 2018 #47
And? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #53
And nothing... MineralMan Dec 2018 #55
Then why bring it up at all? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #58
I wasn't addressing you, guy. MineralMan Dec 2018 #62
There's also some majority Muslim countries that have banned the hijab for decades Major Nikon Dec 2018 #48
Are you sure it's the hijab, not the niqab or the burka? marylandblue Dec 2018 #51
... Major Nikon Dec 2018 #54
Thanks, I didn't know about that marylandblue Dec 2018 #65
A claim. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #66
A bullshit claim Major Nikon Dec 2018 #69
Evidence provided. trotsky Dec 2018 #90
Click the link in that post, Guy. MineralMan Dec 2018 #91
Great point. n/t trotsky Dec 2018 #88
Thank you. gtar100 Dec 2018 #37
You are welcome. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #40
"Intolerance" makes light of the situation. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #3
Repression perhaps motivated by intolerance. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #4
"Theism" isn't a belief system any more than atheism is. trotsky Dec 2018 #7
Perhaps not. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #8
"maybe you should turn off the computer and take account of how you got to this point" trotsky Dec 2018 #21
I commented on that too marylandblue Dec 2018 #76
It's crackerjack, bumper sticker, slacktivist ethics. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #92
Because... NeoGreen Dec 2018 #9
You should write a stern letter to Xi, I think, Guy. MineralMan Dec 2018 #14
A well reasoned reply. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #15
Well, I'm not sure how religion figures into China's repression MineralMan Dec 2018 #17
The article, and others on this topic that I have posted, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #19
Well, you see, the Chinese system represses all philosophies MineralMan Dec 2018 #20
We disagree. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #24
:shrug: MineralMan Dec 2018 #28
So you do not care about repression in general? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #33
That's not what he said Major Nikon Dec 2018 #72
So you think religion is the only reason people go to such camps Major Nikon Dec 2018 #67
The hijab is a symbol of female repression all over the world Major Nikon Dec 2018 #23
Diversion in action. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #25
If you don't want to answer, I understand Major Nikon Dec 2018 #49
You diverted, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #52
Bullshit Major Nikon Dec 2018 #56
Read the title. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #59
Bullshit Major Nikon Dec 2018 #60
Chinese repression of Uighurs has nothing to do with their religion. pangaia Dec 2018 #27
You are correct. MineralMan Dec 2018 #30
And as counterbalance, you have that one person that you know. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #32
Do you know anyone who is from China, Guy? MineralMan Dec 2018 #34
As a matter of fact, I do. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #39
Bye, now... MineralMan Dec 2018 #41
A good move on your part. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #43
It's pretty easy, isn't it. pangaia Dec 2018 #35
But guillaunmeb has religionnews.com MineralMan Dec 2018 #38
OOppss.. Jeeze I just looked. That's a real one. pangaia Dec 2018 #44
Explain that to the Uighurs. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #31
YOU try to explain that to Uighurs. They will laugh in your face. pangaia Dec 2018 #42
That has nothing to do with this post, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #45
Says the guy who insists non-belief is a "belief system" Major Nikon Dec 2018 #77
Guillaumeb knows better. As you've discovered, MineralMan Dec 2018 #46
And he is thus an expert on the Uighurs. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #64
A major publication? You mean like patheos? Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #68
Funny how MM can attack a post from one cleric, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #70
And you are? MineralMan Dec 2018 #71
I made no such claim. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #73
I am sure the Uighurs understand that they live in a region of long dispute marylandblue Dec 2018 #79
A lot of things intersect in Uighur territory, where the Silk Roads once passed through marylandblue Dec 2018 #80
Then China's represion will not stop. nt kelly1mm Dec 2018 #61
That is almost certainly true. MineralMan Dec 2018 #63
Not unless the costs to it are too high. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #84
Like i said before, then China's repression will not stop ........ nt kelly1mm Dec 2018 #86

Mariana

(14,965 posts)
1. That is a bad situation, for certain.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:22 PM
Dec 2018

What do you think should be done about it, Gil, and who do you think should do it?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
2. The UN is one forum.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:24 PM
Dec 2018

But political will is lacking because, in part, China is a huge economic player.

My view.

Yours?

Mariana

(14,965 posts)
10. China has veto power on the UN security council.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:38 PM
Dec 2018

How could the UN enforce any kind of effective action against China?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
11. Great powers can do as they wish.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:41 PM
Dec 2018

And they generally do.

Sanctions were a huge force in South Africa.

Mariana

(14,965 posts)
12. Yes, and China is a great power.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:46 PM
Dec 2018

South Africa is not really a valid comparison, and neither is Iran. How would sanctions against China be enforced?

Mariana

(14,965 posts)
16. Do you not wish to discuss your OP anymore?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:53 PM
Dec 2018

If you don't want to talk about what the international community can do to protect the Uighurs in China, why did you post this here?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
18. To inform people of the issue.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:57 PM
Dec 2018

And I suggested options, and asked your opinion.

So, feel free to respond with your own view of what should or could be done.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
22. Bullshit.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:11 PM
Dec 2018

You posted it for the same reason you post any news about the Chinese government's actions here in the Religion forum: to try and make a false equivalence. The whole point is for you to be able to say "See? Atheists are just as intolerant as the religious!" Which again is attacking some sort of straw man because no one has ever said atheists CAN'T be intolerant. It's just part of your agenda to dismiss persecution that is happening specifically *BECAUSE* of religious beliefs by waving your hands and saying "Religion is never to blame! PEOPLE are always the problem!" It sounds exactly like the NRA saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!" Well sure, but they're a lot more effective at it when they use guns, aren't they?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
26. OK.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:50 PM
Dec 2018

Read the article, notice the references to religion.

This is not political repression, repression of political ideas. It is repression of a belief system by adherents of another belief system.



And the re-education camps are not special college courses for these people.


trotsky

(49,533 posts)
29. Thank you for perfectly proving my point.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:01 PM
Dec 2018

You're the best, g-man! I can always count on you to humiliate yourself.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
50. Actually, it's mostly about nationalism
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:00 PM
Dec 2018
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_nationalism

Note that some Uyghur regions are separatist and others are not. The separatist areas are being repressed more than the pro-Chinese areas.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
57. And you are free to take that position.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:16 PM
Dec 2018

But in general, the Chinese Government, while officially allowing religion, demands control of every aspect of the exercise of religion.

Classic totalitarian and intolerant behavior. But in this case, the intolerant ones are not theists.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
74. I am getting a little tired of the word "intolerance"
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:32 PM
Dec 2018

Since covers such a broad range of behavior, from mere disapproval to mass murder. The Chinese government has always been anti-religious. But enforcement is variable based on the perceived threat to the government. It may all be "intolerance" to you, but to the people being oppressed, it makes a big difference.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
75. The Uighurs might have their own word for it.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:34 PM
Dec 2018

And it continues to happen.

And yes, the Chinese Government officially allows for religious behavior, but in practice, reality shows something else.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
82. See, there you go again, you assume the country and the store, and ended up in the wrong place.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 07:50 PM
Dec 2018

It's actually an industrial broom from U-line, American made and $63.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
83. The owner of Uline, Richard Uihlein,
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 07:52 PM
Dec 2018

is a well known funder of right wing politicians.

So shopping there supports a right wing Trumper.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
85. Uline is an industrial supplier and they carry items that are difficult to find elsewhere
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 07:58 PM
Dec 2018

So most of their customers have business needs or their boss tells them where to shop. And WalMart is not so great either.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
89. "you are free to take that position"?
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:36 AM
Dec 2018

Jesus Christ gil, really?

He stated a fact - that the separatist groups are being repressed more than the pro-Chinese ones. That's a FACT, not an opinion.

No wonder you struggle to be taken seriously, and have to lash out with insults and attacks.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
48. There's also some majority Muslim countries that have banned the hijab for decades
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:40 PM
Dec 2018

Interesting how they are never mentioned, but when it’s done for secular reasons we hear all about it.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
51. Are you sure it's the hijab, not the niqab or the burka?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:05 PM
Dec 2018

The hijab just covers the hair. The niqab is the veil and the burqa has just a screen to see out. The niqab and burka are banned in some Muslim countries because of fears of terrorism, so even in Muslim countries, it's for a secular reason.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
54. ...
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:14 PM
Dec 2018
Turkey, Tunisia, and Tajikistan are Muslim-majority countries where the law prohibits or recently prohibited the wearing of hijab in government buildings, schools, and universities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab#Muslim_world

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
91. Click the link in that post, Guy.
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:24 AM
Dec 2018

Even in 1967-8, when i was stationed in Turkey, The hijab was prohibited in government facilities in that country. Turkey was a secular country with a secular government, even at that time.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
4. Repression perhaps motivated by intolerance.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:27 PM
Dec 2018

And a fear of competing belief systems. Marxism versus theism, with the powerful being Marxists.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
7. "Theism" isn't a belief system any more than atheism is.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:33 PM
Dec 2018

Marxism is, though. Perhaps you're making progress.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
8. Perhaps not.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:33 PM
Dec 2018

Perhaps it is because the Communist Party of China—the only party in China—does not like competition and presents a demonstrable history of treating all dissenting groups, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, with similar hostility.

Perhaps your persistent attempts to qualify China's treatment of these people as one of atheism's great moral failings are pretty fucking despicable and maybe you should turn off the computer and take account of how you got to this point. Because, damn dude.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
21. "maybe you should turn off the computer and take account of how you got to this point"
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 03:54 PM
Dec 2018

I think we need to be honest here and say that if that hasn't happened yet, it's simply not going to.

That he could not only seriously advance the ridiculous example of the Boston Atheists group kicking a Trump supporter out of their ranks as proof of "atheistic intolerance" but CONTINUE to cling to it, means he is likely incapable of such introspection.

OR, it's all worth it in his crusade against people who express negative opinions about religion. The ends justify the means. I think that's more likely.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
76. I commented on that too
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:36 PM
Dec 2018

Intolerance is one of Gil's go to words. Whatever is bad in the world can be blamed on "intolerance," as if people never fought over anything else.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
92. It's crackerjack, bumper sticker, slacktivist ethics.
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:22 AM
Dec 2018

Indictments of intolerance look great on the back of a Toyota and don't actually require you to do or say or think anything courageous, so it's perfect for the upwardly mobile Democrat looking to stick it to the man as inoffensively as possible.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
17. Well, I'm not sure how religion figures into China's repression
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:55 PM
Dec 2018

of philosophies that oppose it's own official philosophy. This seems more like a GD thread to me. It's about politics, not religion.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
19. The article, and others on this topic that I have posted,
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:59 PM
Dec 2018

makes it clear that the Uighurs are being persecuted because of their religion.

So it is an intersection of politics and religious freedom.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
20. Well, you see, the Chinese system represses all philosophies
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 03:05 PM
Dec 2018

that are opposed to that system. All. It's not about religion, Guy. It's about politics.

I did think of another way you could send a message, though. Boycott all Chinese products. Start a movement to get others to do that.

The man I work with most often is Chinese. He fled China to come to the US immediately after the Tienanmen Square incident. Not for religious reasons, but because he believed in democratic principles. He's not a believer in any religion. He was persecuted for his opinions, just like some people persecute people for their opinions here in the United States. He thinks things are better here, but is still aware of such repression. China doesn't like opposition to its political system, wherever that opposition comes from.

This is not a religious topic.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
24. We disagree.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:40 PM
Dec 2018

The re-education camps, a subject of an earlier post, seem to be designed to re-educate people and eliminate adherence to another belief system.

Your one anecdotal example hardly refutes this example of systematic repression of a religious group.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
67. So you think religion is the only reason people go to such camps
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:25 PM
Dec 2018

Because it sounds like that’s what you’re alleging.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
23. The hijab is a symbol of female repression all over the world
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:16 PM
Dec 2018

So which is really more intolerant. Telling someone they can’t wear a hijab, or telling someone they must wear a hijab.

Followup questions:

What does it say about someone who is obsessed over one of those things, but not the other? Is it really intolerance they are concerned about?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
25. Diversion in action.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:41 PM
Dec 2018

Does this example of intolerance toward religious believers represent a bad thing, or a good thing?

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
49. If you don't want to answer, I understand
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:42 PM
Dec 2018

I’ll just chalk it up to yet another instance where you demand answers, but never provide them. It’s not as if it isn’t expected.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
27. Chinese repression of Uighurs has nothing to do with their religion.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:55 PM
Dec 2018

Nothing, nada, zilch...

The Chinese Communist Party will repress ANYBODY who does not agree with them, OR who demonstrates they do not agree with them.

I have quite a few friends, close friends, in China. You know not of what you speak.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
34. Do you know anyone who is from China, Guy?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:08 PM
Dec 2018

I do. I know and work with someone who left China due to repression. You have blog posts. Think about it.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
39. As a matter of fact, I do.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:11 PM
Dec 2018

But that does not make me an expert on China, or the well documented repression taking place there.


And in this instance, this particular instance, the repression is directed against members of a religious minority.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
35. It's pretty easy, isn't it.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:08 PM
Dec 2018


I mean, to say nothing of the fact that I've been to China a bunch of times over the last 18 years..., everywhere..
... my ex-wife is Chinese and has been all over Xinjiang..

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
31. Explain that to the Uighurs.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:06 PM
Dec 2018

Classic intolerance from a dictatorial regime. Directed in this case against people of one faith. Thus, we have an intersection of intolerance and faith.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
42. YOU try to explain that to Uighurs. They will laugh in your face.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:17 PM
Dec 2018

Did you forget Tibetans, Christians, GAYS, Democracy supporters, ANY political party other than the Communist Party, "ethnic minorities' with any or no particular 'religion', dissidents, human rights supporters, voting rights activists, film makers, composers, dance companies,

Ever try using Facebook or a thousand other URLs from mainland China? Without at LEAST a VPN?

Do you have any idea what the protests in 1989 were about? The protests in Beijing were actually a small part of it.




guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
45. That has nothing to do with this post,
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:20 PM
Dec 2018

other than to confirm that the Chinese Government, like totalitarian governments everywhere, tolerates no dissent and no other belief systems.

Unless they can control them.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
77. Says the guy who insists non-belief is a "belief system"
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:39 PM
Dec 2018

Your credibility on the subject isn’t worth much

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
46. Guillaumeb knows better. As you've discovered,
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:26 PM
Dec 2018

No doubt. My colleague, who came here as a refugee, is a PhD neuroscientist. He fled, due to political persecution. But, of course, he knows nothing of China. Guillaumeb knows, because he reads religionnews.com. See? He is an expert on China. On everything, really. I'm in awe of him...

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
64. And he is thus an expert on the Uighurs.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:22 PM
Dec 2018

And the Chinese Government.

Interesting exercise in logic.

One suggestion:

Have this unnamed colleague submit an informative article on this issue to a major publication. Link to that article.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
70. Funny how MM can attack a post from one cleric,
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:28 PM
Dec 2018

but hold up this unnamed colleague as his source.

That is indeed interesting. What do you think of that logic?

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
71. And you are?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:29 PM
Dec 2018

And the writer you quoted? My colleague was a repressed person. He sought and received asylum here. He knows about Chinese repression. You? Bubkes. I have known my colleague for 10 years. I don't know you at all.

Have you lived in China? Have you suffered state repression? No? I'll listen to someone who has, thanks. You're amazing, Guy!

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
73. I made no such claim.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 06:31 PM
Dec 2018

The article interviewed actual Uighurs. Perhaps you should travel to China and educate them as to what they are experiencing.

Your logic in this matter is indeed unique.

And this colleague, is he an expert on the Uighurs? You might wish to ask him about that.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
79. I am sure the Uighurs understand that they live in a region of long dispute
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 07:04 PM
Dec 2018

It's been fought over for millenia, falling in and out of Chinese hands in a pattern that predates Islam.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
80. A lot of things intersect in Uighur territory, where the Silk Roads once passed through
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 07:22 PM
Dec 2018

And China is building new roads to extend it's influence beyond it's borders into Central Asia.

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