Every last bit of it. There are no gods, demons, angels, etc. No hell, heaven paradise, none of it. Insane that people believe these things, but we are a gullible species, that is for sure.

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus. . . A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen."
"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind."
– Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801. ME 10:237
and
He told John Adams that he was rescuing the Philosophy of Jesus and the "pure principles which he taught," from the "artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms as instruments of riches and power for themselves." After having selected from the evangelists "the very words only of Jesus," he believed "there will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."
See the introduction to his "bible" which he created by cutting out what he considered the "good" parts of the Gospels, leaving behind what he didn't approve of, and pasting what he liked into his own version of the bible:
The Jefferson Bible - The Life and Morals of Jesus


from my http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/TheJesusMyth page.

He thought it was fine and dandy to buy and sell other human beings and then sleep with them. Whatta guy.

To think of the most important person in your life as your possession...very weird.

I assert there are gods, demons, angels, and more. There is a hell and there is a heaven. If I deny these things, I deny my own perception and understanding. That you don't see these things doesn't change what I and others experience. You may wonder how I can be so gullible but I wonder how it is you can't see what is obvious to me. I doubt, though, you imagine what these things are the same way I do.

There are many ways to model reality, some of which have worked to uphold cultures for many generations. That to me is proof of viability of a model. Some too crash and burn before they even go beyond the individual who entertained the notion. It seems one of the primary functions of the mind is to build models to make sense of our lives.

Though you didn't state it, I assume behind your assertions is a belief in materialistic science, a belief system that is leading us to the brink of extinction all the while promising a great utopia through technological innovation. Science as a method of discovery is powerful but the belief that it somehow proves there are no gods and that meaning is wholly subjective, well that takes a leap of faith to go there, a leap which I'm not willing to take because it contradicts my own experiences.

Last edited Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:15 PM - Edit history (1)

You even admit it is all imagined.

So lies have been used to uphold cultures. True that. The system of slavery as a viable economic model in a moral world was fully upheld and supported by religious doctrine for centuries. It doesn't make it any more moral even if a nonexistent god encouraged it.

Do you think religion has disappeared? Then why do you blame science for what religion has created? The world is this way because of religion. You single out science but religion is still alive and corrupting everything.

Can you describe what you saw? How were you able to see them?

Why we look for these things as if they were somewhere else is a materialistic meme. But they are spiritual in nature which means they are intertwined with our experiences, just as space, time and mind are. Just my take on it...in a nutshell.

I used to go to church, pray, and believe, and I did not see them then, either. How are you able to see them?

The stick is a more effective means of control than the carrot.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150506120525.htm

Abuse of religion is a real problem. It's a failure of our vision to see the greater potentialities of religion. Just like money, how it is used makes all the difference.

Even if people are controlled for what you think is a good purpose, it still doesn't change it from being a method of controlling the masses.

It's not. There are more points to religion than controlling others. The fact it is used that way shows just how powerful religion is. This is not an endorsement or a way to excuse the abuses of power done in the name of religion. Just saying that there is so much more to religion than what is demonstrated by organized religions that seek out followers.

to that feeling of gratitude through rituals or prayer or meditation. The ritual can be a reminder of that feeling at times when it's not happening naturally. So it's an opportunity to reconnect to a feeling that brings both joy and understanding.

Religion describes a particular way someone else wants you to believe, which is control.

Especially babies who have never sinned. Why do good people die young when the cruelest people live forever? Lots of questions that can't be answered.

I asked a friend that earlier today:

"if Gawd created everything and if he's so damn good, why did he create all these germs and viruses that kill innocent critters, innocent people, babies, and children?!!"

Makes no fucking sense.

Something that has to be emulated to be taught.

the bible. It was all manufactured by the church to scare people into going to church back in 1400s or so.

Luke 16 : 19-31 (NIV)

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

I think they said hell may have been mentioned one time in the bible. I think at one time in history it was pictured as being cold
in hell. We don't know nobody has ever been there and back. Of course there are those who claim they were I am sure.

Frankly, none of it is logical. Therefore, I don't believe any of it.

It isn’t really a burning pit of fire where you get tortured for eternity. It’s a metaphor for the excruciating pain and torture the god you betrayed will inflict on you for eternity.

See? Now it all makes sense.

In fairness there are some christians who agree that “a loving god” and “eternal damnation” are incompatible and that there is no hell, metaphorical or otherwise.

Not a lot. But some.

I'm still open minded to the concept of a supreme presence. My concept is based on love, thus hate is an anathema. I do note that the scripture allows for "a time to hate" and will admit to finding this dark place more often than I would like.

A Time for Everything

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:

a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace.

My question in post #61 above.



Btw, that verse in Ecclesiastes was read at my mother's funeral nine days ago, a request from my agnostic/halfway questioning sister. Go figure.

A baby is drowning in a puddle. You walk by and could easily pick the baby up, save his/her life. Would you? And if you did not, what would that make you?

The all knowing God knows the baby is in the puddle. The all powerful God could have easily saved the baby. The all loving God would save the baby.

The baby dies. How can God be all knowing, all loving, all powerful and let the baby suffer and die?

Don’t believe in a god, don’t believe in heaven, don’t believe in hell. Problem solved.

not to believe in hell as a physical place but a place devoid of the presence of God and love. No burning, no suffering except to never experience the true loving nature of a God that is love itself.
Made sense at the time.

just like reality?

God would never and has never done that, welcomes everyone into His/Her presence. I heard someone define Hell once as "the absence of God." Sounds right to me. Man consigns himself to hell, but not "by his actions or inactions." He simply is in hell because he is too focused on himself to be aware of God. He has "tuned God out" in hedonistic pursuits. So man didn't "put himself in hell" so much as he fell short of putting himself into the heaven that was available to him.

I have sort of the same perception as to the various "rules" that religions have. If your kid breaks a rule, do you stop loving that kid and throw them out? Of course not.

I have the idea that God is offering guidance and direction all the time, under any circumstance, and that all I have to do is listen. I have to be able to hear, and I cannot hear if I'm not listening. If I am focused on myself, if my attention is turned inward, then I am not listening.

If you think about all of these "rules" you can see that they are not so much about "right and wrong," so much as they are about making me turn my attention away from self, outward toward others and toward the world around me. To make me less concerned about "what's in it for me" and more concerned about how, as the Navaho puts it, "I can be in harmony with life." In such a state of being I can hear the guidance and direction which is always being offered.

which is defined as always being man's doing.

Which just pushes the question back to, "Why would God allow a person to exist for eternity in such pain and suffering?"

Theodicy 2.0.

Why would God force anyone to be in God's presence if they choose not to be?

For example the rule that gay sex is bad? That rule?

Prayer and worship.
Honor they father and mother, and nine other commandments.
Going to church on Sunday.
There are literally thousands, not even counting the ones that require you to hate others because they are not like you.

when you said that all these rules are about looking outward etc.

Just you and the mirrors. What could any God possibly say that you, yourself, could not in honest self reflection.

Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

If the god is all-knowing, then it would know, before the creation of the universe, every action and choice the person would ever make; and, if it is all-powerful, the universe would be created exactly as intended, with all outcomes already known.

Therefore, in such a situation, free will is impossible, and everyone going to hell would be already decided at the instant of creation.

and can leave anytime?

you know it's a point system.

You are put to the test. Do you pass?

Yes? Welcome to immortality. That may be good, may be bad, not for me to decide--no basis for judgment.

No? Welcome to hell. Your stay here will be brief as you're quickly killed and disposed of.

The alternative posed by having immortal souls--which is where the idea of hell has to start--is simple. You're going to live forever, and if you're good you want to do good things. But if you're bad--and God has a definition for that--you're just going to create problems and suffering for other others. For eternity. And, at the same time, likely make yourself fairly miserable.

In other words, a short-lived hell is euthanasia to put somebody out of both their misery and prevent others'. But it requires actively denying the idea of an immortal soul.

Of course, that either requires a decided end to things, where the entire mankind endeavor is wrapped up and the planet moves on to a post-mankind era; or it requires an on-going process where people are judged every day or month or year and the refuse from that time period is disposed of.

There is an alternative with an immortal soul--universal salvation. I figure they're pollyannas. They can't stand the idea of something unpleasant happening--what would Baby Jesus do? (Besides cry, suck milk, and spontaneously pee and poo? Maybe giggle. Such love their helpless gods that can't even walk. I mean, seriously--even if you think they're all made up, why make up a wiggling helpless baby-god?)

People send themselves to a Hell of their own making. As a Buddhist, I don't believe in a creator God. I also don't believe that there is a physical Hell that you can locate on a map. Hell, and also Heaven, are mental states. Have you ever been in a situation that felt like pure Hell? Well that's Hell.

In Vajrayana Buddhism, Hell is the lowest realm of samsara, the state of mental delusion and suffering. There is a freezing Hell and a Burning Hell, actually 18 Hells, but I can't remember what all of them are. The predominant negative mental states of Hell are anger and most especially hatred.

The way to get out of Hell, should you find yourself there, is to practice compassion. For example, if someone is carrying a big heavy stone, offer to carry it for a while, he he sits down to rest a bit.

is true. Then let's scour Drumpf's tweets for proof that what Drumpf says is true.

Then let's put the proof we found on the head of a pushpin and stick it into a board called Illogical Notions We Have Dismissed as Crazy.

I was taught that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, past, present and future.

Then, when making that soul, he already knows that person’s eternity.

That’s how he made it all to happen.

And begging the question, why does a god make people for the express purpose of sending them to eternal torture?...

True... There is no free will... There is allowed will.

If God wants someone to change, he will make it happen.

so once created, the universe is set, and no change is possible. If the "god" wanted it to be different, it would have created it different.

An all-loving God cannot send people to hell because there is no all-loving God and there is no hell.

Maybe next we can wax philsophically about who would win a fantasy fist fight between Bat-Man and Darth Vader.

have a mind capable of believing all three of these diving attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills."

- Robert A. Heinlein, The Notebooks of Lazarus Long

we send ourselves to hell and heaven, sometimes during the same day.

Getting the good guy and the bad guy backwards is one of the weirdest.