Thanks for sharing your point of view.

threatening people with hell.

And considering this news, perhaps you should be more worried about alienating potential NON-religious voters by insisting that atheists censor themselves.

Those folks are included in that bloc. They aren't interested in religious messages. They are exploring other paths.

You ASSUME that atheists speaking up is going to scare people away from voting Democratic, and so you wish to silence/censor those viewpoints. The numbers suggest a totally different story.

But hey, that doesn't match up with your preferred narrative, so you have decided vocal atheists are a problem, facts be damned.

for atheists to ridicule people of religious faith as illogical or stupid, since that inevitably casts a net of condescension over Democrats as well as Republicans, including many Democrats they've voted for.

Atheists making that argument and voting for people who are open about their religious faith look, well, illogical.

Better than the other way around I suppose.

that they'll insult Democrats by posting negative opinions about religion. You've been very clear about this, it's why you continue to lecture and demean and degrade.

But demographics are changing. People are rejecting religion. The clear majority of religious voters, vote Republican. The vast, vast majority of non-religious voters, vote Democratic.

Here's a helpful suggestion: instead of just blasting a criticism at the entire group, how about just confronting the *specific* posts and posters you have a problem with? Maybe, just maybe, you would't have gotten frustrated responses from so many people who felt your criticism was overly broad. I.e., exactly like the kind of criticism you are complaining about. Or is it OK for you to do it?

Better to lump them all in one pile so you only have to wag the finger in one direction.

Interesting.

A scientist might observe this pattern, and formulate a hypothesis.

I am tired of your hate and attacks. Until you post something that furthers discussion, this shall be my response to you:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304549

Perhaps it has something to do with people figuring out the evils of organized religion, almost certainly due to the efforts of those you are throwing rocks at.

Perhaps your own form of "proselytizing" would be better received were it not for suggesting everyone who doesn't agree with you should just shut up and leave.

Last edited Tue Jan 15, 2019, 04:16 PM - Edit history (1)

The study concluded that ridicule does not persuade the other side, but does promote in-group cohesion because those who get the joke are in the group.

but not at all helpful in a forum that's supposed to be open to discussion from multiple viewpoints.

The whole point of having open discussion is so people with multiple viewpoints can challenge each other. If it's the challenge part that upsets you, there's other groups where that doesn't happen.

that's less likely to end a discussion before it begins and alienate anyone not already sharing your viewpoint.

If I lost points for sarcasm back when I was on a debate team, I never took it as meaning I was supposed to pick up my notes and go home.

It just meant to try arguing more logically and with less condescension.

And a group - a "jury" of sorts - could be assembled to see if they agree with your claim, and remove the offending post if so.

Failing the existence of such a system, I guess one's only recourse is to blast a bunch of threads into the forum demanding people obey your rules.

You are arguing that there should be. And painting with a very broad brush as to who you want to be silenced.

It is used to demanding enormous respect and reverence. Thinking of itself as the Voice of God, literally.

So it is spoiled. With an enormous, gigantic ego hiding under its ostensible humility.

That Voice of God is not used to being abruptly confronted. And therefore, that is what it is most in lack of. And now needs to hear the most.

So as you note, we rightly allow all kinds, styles of arguments. Including rather directly confrontational ones, of course.

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

It's has proved to be open to your viewpoints. Have any of your posts here been hidden? Have you been blocked from the group? Have you been told to leave? No. None of those things have happened. In fact, you have been warmly welcomed.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218304018

You are free to post your viewpoint here, and people who disagree with you are free to do the same.

Constant condescension is not conversation.

How unspeakably awful that must be for you.

are also not dialogue.

insight.

I see it.

Necessarily. They are the Voice of God, after all. Who demand polite, hushed respect. No loud voices or rude interruptions in the church, please.

Other than the bus ad in England, I mean, which was very tame indeed.

Just sayin'

I miss me.

Just sayin'......

Where you been?

On a slab, not wood decking. Fire dept., EMTs, Whaaambulance. 🤕 I was the spectacle in the 'hood. Everbody came out. I kept my eyes closed the whole time. They had to lift me onto a tarp with handles bc they couldn't get me to get up and carted away. I had the ER nurses cut all my tops off. They flung them on the floor. I told the doc [PA?] I had nothing on top. He said he wouldn't put it on YouTube. He then manipulated my shoulder back in place or so it seemed. 🤔 Three people held me down and I nearly twisted husband's hand off. I yelled and screamed. Pleaded with him to stop and cut me a break. They discharged me at 3 a.m. with no pain meds that I asked for. It's still not right, but better. Know what, it could've been broken. Then I be ultimate basket case.

Dec. I fought off upper/lower respiratory combo. New doc wouldn't give me antibiotic until I called back next day wailing.

Then we had a bad deep snowstorm.

Then we're trying to get our whole house standby generator installed which was purchased Dec. 8. Making some headway after they first said April 2. "I don't think so!" It may be first full week in Feb. Better be. Were spared an ice storm outage past weekend. I would've gone into freak out mode. The generator is an investment , but not chopped liver. What's $8,000+ to rich people?? The outfit involved must think we're loaded. Speaking of loaded 🙃, still don't want to have an alcoholic beverage 🍷bc of the course of medication I was on. It may get erased. The Tramadol I finally got for my shoulder helps.😄 No, I'm not gonna, you know, get hooked.

Tons of other stupid stuff coming down the pike. What can ya do. And daily cray cray from Mr. Bizarro and the reptilians. You know hoo. It don't help.

But at least now you can come here and relax.

So to speak dot dot dot....

Least they could do after you provided them with such a spectacle.

My hub was caregiver. 🙄 Did pretty good. He wants me to be okay all the time. I cooked all through, tho'. Did laundry. Fed and watered fur daughter. Rested a lot. Cut out unnecessary stuff. This was against my nature bc I have this thing about keeping my 'fingers on the pulse'. I'd look at something that needed doing but could wait, and I said the heck with it and waved it off. 'Tweren't easy. My momma would say, "Let it go!"

😘

Wearing J. crew and Old Navy flip-flops don't help. I really counted out the dogga daughter tripping me. She dint.

Took a dive backwards in the front yard year b4 last. Same summer went flying in the pine straw in back. I gotta watch. What a dingaling am I. Husband wants me to get one of those--"I've fallen an' I can't get up!" thingies. No thx. I take a cane around now. If I yell loud enuff with my big yap somebody'll rescue me! 😆

My momma--"Be careful!!" "Watch yourself!!" "Wear a hat!!" "Put socks on!!" "Your mouth!! Tsk. Tsk." 😝

Still and all, I miss her bad.

Don't your tootsies get cold? I'm in heavy wool socks - almost as dangerous since they slip and slide on the wood floor but they are so toasty!

Please do be careful, for real. Just like momma said.

the wearing of minimal clothing. 😄

And we're no longer in New England. 🌨 So there's that.

One HVAC pro said put the thermostat at one temp and adjust it up or down and don't look at the numbers!

During the gas/electric crisis in the 70's, I followed orders from the guvmint to keep heat setting way down. Then hiking it up when necessary ran bill into the stratosphere. We had company that had to leave their coats on. Wasn't worth it. Some stuff needs doing to keep brains from falling out. The corporate industry wasters were mostly never conservation minded. They want ordinary citizens Jack and Jill to suck it up.

Coming your way➡

😍

Fewer bad allies being bad allies.

Oh. Pardon. That's not what you wrote. 😌

- who was a Nazi in Germany - the slogan "Deutschland Uber Ales." Germany over all.

I tried to sound enthusiastic about it, or his ascention. But there was an implied criticism too.

I was able to talk to Joe in a radio interview, just before he became Benedict XVI.

I hope my spelling is correct. My German is not so great.

"Body slam to the door"? Hope everyone is behaving....

I hit the 'floor'. It was a shockeroo. We're on a concrete slab foundation, not wood so it was really bad.

I wear flip-flops all year round inside and they're dangerous. Plus I'm klutzy anyway. I can't bop around like I was younger.

The ER wanted a CT scan for my head, but I refused to be moved onto the table thingy to do it.

I read about Benedict. Not affiliated with the Roman Rite church so I refrain from saying anything.

Some day the crooked ways will be made straight. Totally.

Last edited Wed Jan 16, 2019, 04:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Hope our blogging habits didnt get you into difficulty. On blogs, we might feel free to say almost anything. But I've seen people who get into that habit in blogs, run into big problems in live conversations.

In that way, our poster demanding civility is almost right, when talking about live conversation, if not blogs.

Still, it's also a shame that there are so many things we are punished for saying in public.

I'm going to quote from what I think is the core point you are making.

You're assuming two major things that aren't necessarily true.

1) Calling a belief stupid is the SAME THING as calling a person stupid. The OP and others often can't distinguish this. It's a flaw many religionists share - for instance, when someone draws Mohammed, a true believer gets angry enough to want to kill them. Should the artist be blamed for being murdered then, or does the blame fall solely on the murderer?

2) Not every post in this group is intended to "convince" anyone. People sometimes just express their opinions. Others may disagree. This is the ONE place on DU where non-believers and believers are allowed to interact freely, and that bothers some believers SO MUCH they need to try and stop it. No dissent allowed, or at least no dissent that upsets them. Why is that? There are a dozen groups where believers are free from any dissent at all, just this ONE where it's allowed, and they can't stand it. Just can't stand it. I think that speaks volumes about who's insecure about their beliefs.

As for the murderers you mention, I blame the murderers.

go something like this:

Theist: "Why are you an atheist?"
Atheist: "Well, I realized there isn't any evidence that gods exist, so I don't believe they do."
Theist: "So you think all believers are illogical/irrational/intellectually inferior/stupid."
Atheist: "I didn't say that at all."
Theist: "But that's clearly what you implied."

Etc.

You'd be amazed how often this kind of exchange happens.

Followed by a new OP asking why atheists have to be so mean.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Some feel that condescension is conversation.

Some feel that their own beliefs, or positions, are superior to the beliefs of others.

And there are people on both sides, atheists and theists, that fit into these categories.

It’s just not respectful. But once you engage in it, you give up your right to complain when you get it back. Most people learned in primary school to not dish it out if you can’t take it. Some think they can engage in it and then play the victim when it comes back around. The reality is it just makes them a hypocrite.

Some positions are superior to others. If your position is to hate Jews, that is no way equal to someone who doesn’t. Someone who subscribes to supply side economics isn’t equal to someone who doesn’t. Someone who believes homosexuality is a tool of the devil isn’t equal to someone who doesn’t.

Strange behavior. And he wonders why no one takes him seriously.

So why not mirror it right back to them? So they get to see what it looks like.

Is that this is not, and has not been, a pleasant forum for those who would discuss religion other than atheism for a long time.

No atheists allowed in any significant forum, on pain of death.

So I feel it's justifiable if atheists are a tiny bit rude at times.

Sure, whatever...

It's just this ONE group that draws ire such as yours.

Why is that?

The range of topics is rather narrow and easily diverted into old stale arguments. This is not just the fault of the atheists here.

But that was part of HopeAgain's point. They believe atheists are the problem.

I'm totally cool with people who want to be atheists. Live and let live I say. I just no longer participate because of all the dismissiveness andd efforts to try and trap people for believing what they believe in. Gets old, for sure.

THAT'S part of the problem too.

people just hankering for an argument, I find it upleasant. Later, dude.

I fully realize this upsets a lot of people.

You're an atheist, aren't you?

Funny how "I'm not looking to argue" always pops up after I've asked a difficult question, or pointed out someone's hypocrisy.

So unless you are a masochist, there must be something you find here worthwhile.

But the level of discourse could be higher.

I am sympathetic to some of the complaints from religious people, though. Religion is really an emotional experience, not a rational one. So calling it nonsense and irrational misses the point of religion. IMHO of course.

Lots of experiences are emotional. Few elicit the kind of response that criticisms of religion do.

I think it's more an Allegory of the Cave kind of scenario.

you are likely to get an emotional response. That's human nature, unless you are dealing with someone who has trained themselves not to respond emotionally.

I always had a problem with the Allegory of the Cave because it carries with it the assumption that those who may see a little more clearly are not themselves just seeing better shadows.

I don't know what is and what isn't human nature. I've never met a human who was not in one way or another shaped by society. What I do is know is no one has ever flown a plane into a building over Beethoven. So even in the realm of emotional responses, religion seems to occupy a nearly unique position.

So you can ignore that part. Point remains, lots of people respond emotionally to criticism, even or perhaps especially when the criticism is true. I was speaking mainly in the context of this group rather than terrorists and the like. Yes, religion does arouse violent passions, but my view is that it only does so under certain conditions. At present, those conditions are widely prevalent in Islamic cultures.

People also have an emotional response to Handel's Messiah, but nobody every killed anyone over it.

My point generally is that I don't think certain people would be behaving in their way if this group was about almost anything but religion.

Except me. I'm a jerk pretty much wherever I go.

in the orchestra during "And the trumpet shall sound" who played a very wrong note. The conductor looked like he might kill the guy. Fortunately, that didn't come to pass. As an oboist, my part didn't stick out quite that openly, so...

The music teacher got so mad at us once that he threw his baton into the audience seats and couldn't find it. He finally gave up and use a recorder cleaner instead.

I don't know how they do it. In my home town school system, one band director handled the elementary, junior high, and high school bands. Maybe that was why he was so nervous all the time.

He was pretty good, though, and shamed us all into practicing and working on our intonation, from the very beginning. I liked him.

...than controlling the unwashed masses?

The problem with the freedom of expressing an idea as a good one is you can't do so honestly without allowing the others the freedom to criticize it.

then that is your opinion, and you can certainly express it. I wish religion had better defenders in this group than it has, but that isn't your problem.

But I’m not not as sure an emotional attachment to belief is all that great of a defense of religion. Only one of those things requires the other.

Love for example.

Not so well on an institutional level.

Highplainsdem certainly isn't the first to complain that this group allows posters to openly express disagreement, point out inconsistencies and errors, ask awkward questions, and so on. Highplainsdem is also not the first to assert that such discussion isn't "appropriate" in this group, regardless of what the Group's SOP says.

So many seem to want to make this group into a clone of the Interfaith Group. The thing is, the Interfaith Group already exists. If people really want to have the kind of conversations that group was created for, why is the place a deserted wasteland?

At least that's my theory. Or maybe it's just me that wants that. Religion is not known for nice disagreements, so probably won't happen.

if they're starting off with the premise that atheists shouldn't be permitted to express negative opinions about religion at all in this group, because it isn't "appropriate" for us to do it here. We also have a particular poster who likes to poison the well, and that certainly interferes with civil discussion. Nevertheless, there are a few theists who manage to have respectful and productive conversations with atheists in this group, so it can be done.

Arrogance and dismissiveness is unpleasant, that's all I'm saying.

But I'm no longer interested in athiests trying to prove that people of faith are simple/illogical/unreasonable, etc. Just my experience, ymmv.

Call out the posts you believe are wrong. Engage that person, explain to them. Don't bash "atheists" as a group. Isn't that what you are blaming them for doing? Attacking all believers as a group? Why is OK for you to do it, then?

Atheist posts something that a believer thinks unfairly targets ALL believers and/or ALL religion.

Believer proceeds to target ALL atheists, calling them arrogant, rude, yada yada.

I'm beginning to think that the longer you stay in religion, the less awareness of irony you have.

Which conveniently ignores the fact that historically the most problematic posters in this group have been believers whose tombstones litter DU.

But no, the problem is just those horrible atheists, ALL of them. Sigh.

disables the mind. And attempts to defeat objections by a sort of trick.

You tell rational critics of religions, that Reason doesn't count. And when their mind is disabled in this way, then you feed them an endless string of nonsense. With no objections, no reason, allowed. Demanding next, just Faith..

I think there's something about it in the Bible.

Be the change you wish to see, and discover what happens.

complain about what a horrible party it is, and leave.

I do searches regarding religion on Google from time to time. Just today, I searched for Atheists in Churches. One of the most interesting thing I found was several stories about an atheist minister at a United Church. After proceedings designed to decide whether she could continue serving as a minister, a positive decision was reached.

The surprise was that the United Church leadership decided that she could. Now, there's some good news that never found its way into the Religion Group. Since it's from late last year, I won't post any of the stories, but I have to wonder why they didn't find their way here.

Several putative Christians post regularly in the Religion Group. I use the word "putative," because at least one of those is always hesitant to describe beliefs in any detail at all, leaving me to wonder what they actually are.

There are positive stories with a religious emphasis. We don't see them, though, except as a poke in the eyes of the atheist members of the Group or with the obvious message that only religious people do good things. That's why I suggested to that person that he or she post some positive stories that demonstrate tolerance and acceptance by religious organizations.

I will wait to see if such stories appear.

Pretty much all highly active groups on DU and pretty much everywhere else have those whose idea of discussion looks more like a drive by shooting.

Get that straight before you start criticizing us...

If you can't handle the challenge of talking to people who don't have gods, then perhaps you should look into the umpteen other forums in the Religion Sub Forum.

Do I think you are an Idiot... nah
Irrational... yes... I believe your argument and position to be irrational
A fool... perhaps...
Privileged... From head to toe.

That said, I am not going to silence you and I would be grateful if you would lend me that courtesy and that courtesy alone.

If saying I think you are irrational and perhaps a fool is going too far show me I am wrong. Prove to me your belief without evidence is rational and I will stop saying I think you are irrational.

He had a sign that read, "God is nowhere."
But I always thought it said "God is now here."