Religion
Related: About this forumOf course religion is connected to tribalism.
That's where it started. Humans tend to naturally form groups, starting with the family group and expanding as needed to survive. We don't do well as solo creatures, really.
As groups grow larger, though, some sort of order is needed to keep the group working together toward common goals. That order can be provided by a powerful chieftain who makes rules for however many people he can control. It's a precarious job, though, being chieftain of a tribe. Often, force is required to enforce whatever rules the chieftain makes, and surrounding oneself with strongmen often leads to one of them deciding that he should be the chieftain.
Religion can serve a similar purpose. Human individuals have lots of questions. It's our nature. We wonder about things. So, in most groups the size of a tribe, there's typically a clever person who is good at telling stories. Not only are stories entertaining, they can be used to explain stuff that isn't immediately obvious. So, a clever story-teller gains a different sort of power within a tribe. He or she explains the sunrise and the moon and the stars and all that stuff, through imaginative stories.
Smart chieftains see the effect of the story-teller and reward him or her for telling stories about why the rules are what the rules are. A bit of the choice parts of whatever animal is on the fire can go a long way toward getting the good stories told that help the chieftain maintain his position without having to kill too many of the tribe.
Then there are gods. They're also very useful. Typically, in basic cultures, there are lots of them. One for each inexplicable thing that needs explaining. The story-teller can easily come up with tales about those gods and how they came to empower whatever things need empowering. Gods for the sky, the sun, the moon, that pesky volcano over there, and the lion that ate your grandmother. It's all explained by powerful gods that have different priorities sometimes than the tribe has.
Sometimes a god can be credited with the power the chieftain needs, too. That's very helpful to the chieftain, who is often beset by jealousies and competition. As always, the story-teller can be counted on to fill in the important details.
And so it goes. As tribes encounter each other, they can have a battle over territory or sit down and combine their numbers, all the better to exploit the local resources. When tribes join together, though, their story-tellers may have different stories. Merging those is an important aspect of assembling a larger tribe. Often, a simplification of religion can help. Anyhow, some groups succeed and others don't. It depends.
In all cases, though, the religions developed by the story-tellers must reflect the general attitudes of the tribes and, of course, their chieftains. In larger groups, one chieftain generally ends up on the top of the heap, so there is some direction and one set of rules to follow. The wise and clever story-teller handles getting this across to the group.
And that's the essential story of religion. Gods are created by story-tellers to suit the needs of a particular group, its chieftain, and the surrounding natural environment. Over time, those things all change. New groups are enveloped by old groups, populations grow and shrink, and territories expand or diminish. The gods adapt, as they must, through new stories that derive from old stories.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Politics. Team sports. Cars. Beer.
But few of them rarely lead to widespread turmoil and even fewer still are so entrenched they overstay their welcome by several centuries.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)That's why they exist, I think. That doesn't make the stories any more true, of course. But, it does explain some things. Story-tellers end up shaping the course of civilization, it seems. The chieftains die, but the stories live on, with changes, mutations, and sometimes wholesale re-tellings, but they live on.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)We still read Greek philosophers and plays. We still tell time using the Babylonian number system. But religion does seem to retain a hold on the masses that other things can't match.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)We all read Plato in school, but I haven't met many Platonists walking the streets in search of Aristotleans.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)But I bet the wine is pretty good.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)We still read the Bible, too, and it's from a far different type of culture than we have now. But, we're still getting explanations from the story-tellers and still following the orders of the chieftains.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)a way to settle disputes without violence. Religion is more of a two-edged sword. Sometimes settling disputes, sometimes causing them.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)In practice, politics often takes on the more abhorrent qualities of religion. Typically, the more authoritarian the government, the more religion-like it becomes.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)is still there, but everything is far more complex now. It takes some serious thinking to put politics, warfare, nationalism and other elements together and understand where the chieftains and the story-tellers are now. Each of us is part of multiple, often conflicting tribes now. It ain't simple.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Never been to a Sox game, though.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And patriotism has always led to war. So has patriotism also overstayed its welcome?
If so, what will or should replace it?
littlemissmartypants
(25,483 posts)I personally would like to see us return to a more matriarchal, goddess focused, society. Me dreaming again.
Have you read
Jesus and the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians?
From the Inside Flap
Why Were the Teachings of the Original Christians Brutally Suppressed by the Roman Church?
- Because they portray Jesus and Mary Magdalene as mythic figures based on the Pagan Godman and Goddess
- Because they show that the gospel story is a spiritual allegory encapsulating a profound philosophy that leads to mythical enlightenment
- Because they have the power to turn the world inside out and transform life into an exploration of consciousness
Drawing on modern scholarship, the authors of the international bestseller The Jesus Mysteries decode the secret teachings of the original Christians for the first time in almost two millennia and theorize about who the original Christians really were and what they actually taught. In addition, the book explores the many myths of Jesus and the Goddess and unlocks the lost secret teachings of Christian mysticism, which promise happiness and immortality to those who attain the state of Gnosis, or enlightenment. This daring and controversial book recovers the ancient wisdom of the original Christians and demonstrates its relevance to us today.
About the Author
Timothy Freke (left) has a degree in philosophy, is the author of more than twenty books, and is an authority on world spirituality.
Peter Gandy (right) has an M.A. in classical civilization, specializing in the ancient mystery religions. They have coauthored three previous publications: The Jesus Mysteries, The Complete Guide to World Mysticism, and Hermetica.
For more information on the authors, their books, lectures, and seminars, visit their website: www.jesusmysteries.demon.co.uk
~~~~~
Here's another resource which supports the notion that a society that is focused on patriarchal supremacy is doomed to failure.
Sex and World Peace
From Amazon Books: Sex and World Peace unsettles a variety of assumptions in political and security discourse, demonstrating that the security of women is a vital factor in the security of the state and its incidence of conflict and war.
The authors compare micro-level gender violence and macro-level state peacefulness in global settings, supporting their findings with detailed analyses and color maps. Harnessing an immense amount of data, they call attention to discrepancies between national laws protecting women and the enforcement of those laws, and they note the adverse effects on state security of abnormal sex ratios favoring males, the practice of polygamy, and inequitable realities in family law, among other gendered aggressions.
The authors find that the treatment of women informs human interaction at all levels of society. Their research challenges conventional definitions of security and democracy and shows that the treatment of gender, played out on the world stage, informs the true clash of civilizations. In terms of resolving these injustices, the authors examine top-down and bottom-up approaches to healing wounds of violence against women, as well as ways to rectify inequalities in family law and the lack of parity in decision-making councils. Emphasizing the importance of an R2PW, or state responsibility to protect women, they mount a solid campaign against women's systemic insecurity, which effectively unravels the security of all.
~~~~~
Sex And World Peace: How The Treatment Of Women Affects Development And Security
Kate Diamond
https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2012/05/sex-and-world-peace-how-the-treatment-of-women-affects-development-and-security/
What we have discovered is that the very best predictor of how insecure and unstable a nation is not its level of democracy, its not its level of wealth, its not what Huntington civilization it belongs to, but is in fact best predicted by the level of violence against women in the society, said Valerie Hudson, co-author of Sex and World Peace, at an April 26 book launch at the Wilson Center. [Video Below]
https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2012/05/sex-and-world-peace-how-the-treatment-of-women-affects-development-and-security/
Of course there's always more at the link.
~~~~~
Direct answer from me to your query would be: society is fluid, just like gender. The laws of diminishing returns are more powerful than we think. As the worlds people are forced into migration by hunger and other predicaments, which are directly related to climate change, societal formations will morph and reflect the changes in the many populations that will be forced to work together for survival.
TwistOneUp
(1,020 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)I will look for it.
And yes, patriarchy is one foundation of some societies. And it is based on domination.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Anything else I can clear up for you, or are you done asking irrelevant questions?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Not everything we throw out needs replacing.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)The Swiss have been neutral for something like 500 years.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And every Swiss citizen is enrolled in their army.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)It does not mean they are a nation of angels or pacifists.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But war can be fought on other fields.
Perhaps their relative size and vulnerable position made them conclude that war was not a feasible approach.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)To avoid the implications of a counterexample.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Which does NOT detract from the general point.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And I found a case in which it did not. Which implies it is not a necessary outcome of patriotism, but something that may or may not occur depending on conditions.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)If there are historical exceptions due to certain conditions, we may be able to reproduce those conditions and reduce or eliminate future wars. And if this is so, then we may also be able to identify factors that distinguish religion from patriotism as to their propensity to cause war.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But there is also the human tendency to dominate, and exert power over others. A tendency that is manifested at the most basic level in the family unit.
Patriarchal domination is the first part of the dominance pattern.
My view.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Whereas patriotism doesn't seem as interested in how your family operates. So that's a strike against religion that is less prevalent in patriotism.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Tell that to the MeToo survivors.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Not always openly, but the Constitution did not originally allow for female suffrage.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Meanwhile, the only people still arguing that women should be subordinate are religious people.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But even with the improvement, women are still treated as second class citizens.
The eternal words versus actions factor.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But if we were conservative religionists, it would be a requirement. Which is my point.
edhopper
(34,791 posts)and trying to improve the lives of it's people without "My Country, right or wrong".
No nation is the "Best Country on Earth."
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But realizing these things that you say is difficult. It runs counter to the generally accepted narrative.
edhopper
(34,791 posts)too large a segment.
cilla4progress
(25,901 posts)(though perhaps implied):
F-E-A-R!
A weapon, a tool, a control mechanism, at the base in part of our wondering, a manipulator, visceral and eminently powerful in the human psyche.
I'd like to read your discussion of how and where fear ties in here.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)It was dangerous being a human. The tribes developed because of fear, since individual humans don't survive well.
The chieftains, generally, also employed fear to create their power over the tribe. Violating the chieftain's rules was generally punishable by death. So, the security of the tribe was tempered by the fear of the chieftain, in most cases. The simple answer was to follow the rules so you had the protection of the tribe.
The story-teller's job was to moderate the fear of the tribe, though stories that explained things and the reasons for things. We are calmed often by stories that help us to understand. Why did Barm die yesterday after being ill? The story-teller knows and will explain it to you. An evil spirit within him was the cause, in most cases. If you do the things the story-teller tells you to do, and obey the chieftain, though, you may escape Barm's fate.
Fear was a constant in early human tribes. Exploiting that fear and helping allay it is the path to power for the chieftain and the story-teller, who soon also became the shaman, who had rituals designed to allay fears.
The Chieftain is a strong person. The story-teller is a smart person. Between the two, the success of the tribe is possible. Reading anthropological writings will let you see that story again and again. There is always a Chieftain and a story-teller or shaman.
cilla4progress
(25,901 posts)thanks.
Who have these roles in America right now, in trumps admin?
Can US now be seen as one tribe on any level?
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)320 million people. They live in all sorts of environments. That's way too big a tribe to control, frankly. We have laws and other mechanisms that attempt to provide control, but it's all too complicated really, and people don't agree with the rules everywhere. We're in difficult times, we humans, these days.
There are too many of us, I think, in the tribe.
So, no, I don't think that tribalism works on that scale. Not very well at all.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Except perhaps all the things they should be afraid of.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)However, our fears are not always rational. As you say, we often fear the wrong things. We're still the same human animals we were when tribes had maybe 100 people in them. We still have those basic fears in us, along with the same basic reactions to them.
The world, though, is a far different place. We're still the same hairless primates, living in a world we've managed to create. But, we're not really that well equipped for it.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Evolution bred us to be fearful of things that kill us before we get the chance to reproduce. This has the benefit of giving us lives longer than most lions might like, but on the other side the coin we very rarely find ourselves adequately afraid of more existential threats.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)about all this stuff. I'm not, though. I'm 73, and don't have the time or energy to develop my thoughts as I'd like to. So, I just sketch things out.
Civilization has outpaced evolution dramatically. We have not evolved significantly enough to adapt to current conditions. We didn't have a few tens of millions of years to do that. So, now, we've poisoned our planet, run out of space, and are still functioning like we live in small warlike tribes. It doesn't fucking work.
There's a significant chance that, within another 10-20 generations, we may end up being reduced to living in small tribes once again. I wonder if we'll survive that as a species. I don't know. We're sort of on the verge of a global disaster, I think, one of our own making.
That is why I did not reproduce. We've been warned already of the path we're on. I listened to the warnings. Soon enough, I'll be gone, so I won't find out where humans end up. Oh, well...
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)We'll go back to a more natural state, and we were pretty good at that.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)The environment beyond repair.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)Nomadic wanderers, mostly, goatherds and shepherds. There were chieftains and story-tellers and breaking the rules got you stoned to death by your fellow tribespeople.
Later on, those tribes got together, killed off other tribes, took their women, inhabited their cities, and formed larger cultural groups. The story-tellers adapted their stories to suit each new situation. Sometimes, they borrowed stories from other tribes and changed them around to suit their own needs. That's why so many stories are similar.
Religion expands and adapts to suit the needs of the culture it came from. In many ways, religion is having severe problems adapting to modern civilization. It may be nearing the end of its usefulness, but it will go down fighting, I guarantee.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)In particular the tribal alliances that tend to take over a party. The modern GOP is now essentially the party of theocracy.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)It's damned confusing is what it is, and we're in over our heads more than a little bit, really.
littlemissmartypants
(25,483 posts)Kicking.
TwistOneUp
(1,020 posts)So there. lol
edhopper
(34,791 posts)manifestation of tribalism, doesn't that negate any spiritual foundation for a religion?
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 16, 2019, 09:19 AM - Edit history (1)
The twelve tribes of Israel, for example.
MineralMan
(147,575 posts)It has been my opinion for more than 50 years that all deities are the inventions of ancient storytellers in various tribal cultures. Those inventions have gotten altered and refined over the past few thousand years, but still bear the marks of the original storytellers.
Any spiritualism is, I believe, in the mind of the individual, who assigns such feelings to his or her beliefs.
And, as is always stated in my signature line, that is my opinion.
c-rational
(2,866 posts)is that both involve humans. Religions are about the relationship between humans and the supernatural or spirit world, while tribalism relates to the rules among a group of humans. I do believe that much of what were early spiritual teachings became nothing more than shared rituals, and thus much of what passes for modern day religious beliefs is little more than tribalism.