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Did Cain slay Abel of his own free will or (Original Post) MineralMan Jan 2019 OP
How did murder come about, father? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #1
I heard the story in church at one time or another, but smelled a rat when I got older... Thomas Hurt Jan 2019 #2
Interesting. MineralMan Jan 2019 #3
.. and Bible Literalists should have problems with... JustFiveMoreMinutes Jan 2019 #4
Among many other things... MineralMan Jan 2019 #5
But what about this? MineralMan Jan 2019 #6
Plus a whole lot of incest. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #7
I will "see" your question and "raise" you another one... Ferrets are Cool Jan 2019 #8
More clues about the non-existence of deities. MineralMan Jan 2019 #13
Ding Ding Ferrets are Cool Jan 2019 #25
God gave us free will, which means we're going to do the wrong thing sometimes Clash City Rocker Jan 2019 #26
OK, so, let me get this right... MineralMan Jan 2019 #28
Dayum, if I was as sharp as you Ferrets are Cool Jan 2019 #32
Aw, shucks... MineralMan Jan 2019 #33
I don't know about that one, but God caused MarvinGardens Jan 2019 #9
The "Mark of Cain" was used by Christians to justify slavery Major Nikon Jan 2019 #10
And also the prophecy about Ham. Igel Jan 2019 #11
Yes, and Adam and Eve had to get busy again MineralMan Jan 2019 #14
You mean the metaphorical Adam and Eve Major Nikon Jan 2019 #16
Of course. In reality, there was no such pair, of course. MineralMan Jan 2019 #17
Makes you wonder which requires a higher level of delusion Major Nikon Jan 2019 #18
It doesn't make me wonder at all. MineralMan Jan 2019 #21
"Bible Literalists" aka believers Major Nikon Jan 2019 #23
Right. I can see old Moishe now, pondering MineralMan Jan 2019 #24
Maybe the idea of a perfect God is too literal marylandblue Jan 2019 #20
Well, those old nomadic storytellers had limited knowledge to work with. MineralMan Jan 2019 #22
so, about 'Oumuamua. Igel Jan 2019 #12
Gravity affects all material things. MineralMan Jan 2019 #15
Just an allegory to explain a 'brother vs brother' civil war fight Mc Mike Jan 2019 #19
Since (Y-chromosome) Adam & (mitochondrial) Eve lived 1000s of years apart, I choose fable (lie). malchickiwick Jan 2019 #27
Yes, of course it's a fable. some people, though, claim MineralMan Jan 2019 #29
On the one hand, if the creator is all knowing and all powerful, no. LongtimeAZDem Jan 2019 #30
On my other hand, I have four fingers and a thumb. MineralMan Jan 2019 #31

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
1. How did murder come about, father?
Tue Jan 29, 2019, 08:22 PM
Jan 2019

And the father, taking into account the young age of the child, explained it.

Thomas Hurt

(13,925 posts)
2. I heard the story in church at one time or another, but smelled a rat when I got older...
Tue Jan 29, 2019, 08:28 PM
Jan 2019

since the all-knowing God asked Cain where his brother was when God knew good and well. God knew beforehand if God is all-knowing. So Cain went and did exactly what God wanted him to do and went right where God wanted him to go.

A set up from the beginning.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,957 posts)
8. I will "see" your question and "raise" you another one...
Tue Jan 29, 2019, 09:06 PM
Jan 2019

IF GOD Almighty is omnipotent, all seeing and all knowing, why did he set up such a flawed system that he had to "send his only begotten son" to his death to fix it?
Was he just throwing spaghetti up against the wall to see what stuck?

Yes, I'm being an ass.

Clash City Rocker

(3,541 posts)
26. God gave us free will, which means we're going to do the wrong thing sometimes
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 01:10 PM
Jan 2019

I know the Religion board is really the atheism board, so I expect a lot of snarky answers to this. That’s okay.

Also, Cain murdered Able of his own free will, because he was jealous. And when God asked him wher his brother was, He already knew the answer.

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
28. OK, so, let me get this right...
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 01:16 PM
Jan 2019

You think Cain and Abel were real people, and the offspring of Adam and Eve? Did the original teller of this story actually witness it? I just want to know who I'm talking to here, before going any further.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,957 posts)
32. Dayum, if I was as sharp as you
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 08:48 PM
Jan 2019

I would be able to slice through large boulders with a single swing. You are da man!!

*there is NO sarcasm in my sentence. I really think that.

MarvinGardens

(781 posts)
9. I don't know about that one, but God caused
Tue Jan 29, 2019, 09:49 PM
Jan 2019

the pharoh to continue to hold God's chosen people in slavery, after the first plague. The pharoh was seriously thinking about letting them go, but God "hardened his heart". This escalated through multiple punishments visited upon the Egyptians, each time with God hardening the pharoh's heart. It culminated with God killing all of the Egyptians' firstborn sons.

Since the pharoh no longer had free will once the plagues started, this was premeditated murder committed by God.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
10. The "Mark of Cain" was used by Christians to justify slavery
Tue Jan 29, 2019, 10:12 PM
Jan 2019

Later it was also used to justify Jim Crow.

Igel

(36,082 posts)
11. And also the prophecy about Ham.
Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:37 PM
Jan 2019

Those two things are, of course, completely different things.

On the other hand, there's how "Supernatural" interpreted the "mark of Cain." Which was, of course, Cain's mark.

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
17. Of course. In reality, there was no such pair, of course.
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:00 AM
Jan 2019

However, religionists point to them, even those who claim not to be Bible literalists. There was no Adam and Eve, no Garden of Eden, no Cain and Abel, and no freaking talking serpent. None of that. Such ideas are clearly nonsense and pure mythology.

That creates a real conflict for Bible enthusiasts. They know it's mythology, but can't say so. That creates a shitstorm generated by the "true believers" who take it all literally. So, they hedge and dissemble, referring to Adam and Eve only when necessary, but in total confusion, since they have to take it sort of literally or the entire story falls apart.

Meanwhile, Science has a very, very good handle on the evolution of the human species. It understands how humans came to be what they are now. Who was Eve? Well, mitochondrial DNA offers some clues, but they don't match up with the whole Eden story and all the mythology. So, the fundamentalists have to claim that science is wrong, and the metaphorists have to do their delicate tap dance to preserve any semblance of belief in Genesis as a true story at all.

In some cases, they've reduced it all to some sort of amorphous "Creator," who set the entire metaphorical creation into action. Then, they have to try to fit that "Creator" somehow into the mythology. The process is comical and entertaining, but that's all it is.

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
21. It doesn't make me wonder at all.
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:20 AM
Jan 2019

The Bible Literalists are clearly very stupid or ignorant people who will never make an effort to understand things. They're not deluded. They're just ignorant, either knowingly or by nature.

The Bible Metaphorists, on the other hand, actually know the truth, but pretend not to for appearance's sake and to bolster whatever is left of their theism. That's where the delusion lies. Knowing the truth but denial of that truth requires some serious mental gymnastics or sheer delusional thinking. Which it is in individual cases is not something I think about a lot.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
23. "Bible Literalists" aka believers
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:31 AM
Jan 2019

They are simply fundamentalists. Just seems kind of funny someone would need to call them something else, obviously intended as a pejorative, while trotting out "metaphorical" original intents which require a higher order of delusional thinking to believe. It gets even funnier when they pretend such ancient people actually understood concepts not conceived for another 5 thousand years, but just dummed them down for an audience of illiterate sheep herders.

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
24. Right. I can see old Moishe now, pondering
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:35 AM
Jan 2019

how to explain the Big Bang to a gathering of illiterate goatherds. "Well, there was, like, nothing at all. No form. It was void. Then, ancient Yahweh said, 'Someone turn on the damned lights! I can't see shit!' And suddenly there was light, and Yahweh could see good. Then, this happened and that happened, and here we are gathered around the fire."

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
20. Maybe the idea of a perfect God is too literal
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:19 AM
Jan 2019

In the early stories, God is limited, nasty and jealous. And only interested in his own people. The omnipotent perfect God only came with the later prophets. Perhaps they were speaking metaphorically as well. Or thought flattery would placate the Big Brute.

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
22. Well, those old nomadic storytellers had limited knowledge to work with.
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:23 AM
Jan 2019

What they didn't know, they faked. Bronze age and Iron age goatherds didn't know the difference, and didn't care, anyhow. What's amazing is that we're still taking those old stories seriously in any way. It's a freaking marvel.

Igel

(36,082 posts)
12. so, about 'Oumuamua.
Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:39 PM
Jan 2019

Did the Solar System go rushing by 'Oumuamua or did 'Oumuamua go rushing through the Solar System?

The answer is, of course, "Yes." Both are equally true, but only one can be true at a time.

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
15. Gravity affects all material things.
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 09:14 AM
Jan 2019

Simultaneously. Of course more massive things exert more force than less massive things. So, we often forget the Earth's gravitational effect on the Sun. The moon's effect on the Earth, though, is evidenced by the tides.

It's all proportional.

Mc Mike

(9,171 posts)
19. Just an allegory to explain a 'brother vs brother' civil war fight
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:09 AM
Jan 2019

between agricultural and animal husbandry adherents.

History written by the winners.



malchickiwick

(1,474 posts)
27. Since (Y-chromosome) Adam & (mitochondrial) Eve lived 1000s of years apart, I choose fable (lie).
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 01:14 PM
Jan 2019

That said, fratricide as part of a people's founding mythology was not entirely uncommon in the ancient world, see Romulus and Remus & Set and Osiris.

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
29. Yes, of course it's a fable. some people, though, claim
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 01:19 PM
Jan 2019

to actually believe it. What to do with them?

LongtimeAZDem

(4,515 posts)
30. On the one hand, if the creator is all knowing and all powerful, no.
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 01:20 PM
Jan 2019

On the other hand, if free will does exist, then according to the story, yes.

On the gripping hand, who cares?

MineralMan

(147,574 posts)
31. On my other hand, I have four fingers and a thumb.
Wed Jan 30, 2019, 01:22 PM
Jan 2019

It's all a fable, so it doesn't really matter, as you say.

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