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guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 12:22 PM Apr 2019

USCIRF report: China, two dozen other countries top religious freedom offenders list

From the article:

With its particular focus on China’s oppression of religious and human rights, an independent watchdog group has decried in its annual report the state of religious freedom across the globe.
The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a bipartisan organization created 20 years ago, concludes in its Monday (April 29) report that “innumerable believers and nonbelievers across the globe continued in 2018 to experience manifold suffering due to their beliefs.”....

Two decades later it notes that Uighur Muslims, in particular, remain severely repressed by Chinese officials.
“Nearly 20 years later, Muslims are constantly surveilled, their phones confiscated and scanned, their skin pricked for blood samples to collect their DNA, their children prohibited from attending mosque,” reads the report’s introduction. “Even worse, the Chinese government has ripped entire families apart, detaining between 800,000 and two million adults in concentration camps and relegating some of their children to orphanages.”


To read more:

https://religionnews.com/2019/04/29/uscirf-report-china-two-dozen-other-countries-top-religious-freedom-offenders-list/
129 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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USCIRF report: China, two dozen other countries top religious freedom offenders list (Original Post) guillaumeb Apr 2019 OP
USCIRF: Led by Tony Perkins and Gary Bauer Major Nikon Apr 2019 #1
Refute what was written. guillaumeb Apr 2019 #2
China is afraid of religion for good reasons Bretton Garcia May 2019 #48
And.... guillaumeb Apr 2019 #3
WOW, he'll ally himself with the worst of the deplorables if they say what he wants to hear. trotsky Apr 2019 #9
Given the stated motivation is diversion, not all that surprising Major Nikon Apr 2019 #14
You seem confused. guillaumeb May 2019 #78
You're being repetitive in this thread. MineralMan May 2019 #79
You have the right to post that. guillaumeb May 2019 #83
#gaslighting trotsky May 2019 #80
Well, when you find a tool, you use it until it breaks or wears out. MineralMan May 2019 #81
You do understand that we all know that China doesn't treat MineralMan Apr 2019 #4
I understand why you do not like these posts about China. guillaumeb Apr 2019 #5
OK, then... MineralMan Apr 2019 #6
You seem confused. guillaumeb Apr 2019 #7
No, I'm not confused. MineralMan Apr 2019 #8
Such certaintly might be a symptom. eom guillaumeb Apr 2019 #11
A symptom of what, exactly, guillaumeb? MineralMan May 2019 #22
Given your own frequent admonitions to others that they think, guillaumeb May 2019 #24
Alleging other people are "confused" is classic gaslighting behavior Major Nikon Apr 2019 #15
I'm sure he has convinced himself that I'm confused. MineralMan May 2019 #18
Yep, and the predicted defense of gaslighting is more gaslighting Major Nikon May 2019 #26
You are confused. guillaumeb May 2019 #25
No, he's using it correctly. trotsky May 2019 #28
You too, are incorrect. guillaumeb May 2019 #30
Since you can provide absolutely no evidence in favor of your opinion, trotsky May 2019 #32
When called out for gaslighting, the predictable response is more gaslighting Major Nikon May 2019 #36
And when some are called for incorrectly using the term, and they continue, guillaumeb May 2019 #42
The number of people here who are incorrect is exactly one Lordquinton May 2019 #34
Being incorrect is one thing Major Nikon May 2019 #44
No arguments were offered Lordquinton May 2019 #46
Par for the course Major Nikon May 2019 #51
It's really ignorant too Lordquinton May 2019 #60
Those mean atheists are picking on his (former?) religion Major Nikon May 2019 #62
As if there's a comparisson Lordquinton May 2019 #71
There's cover up and there's providing cover Major Nikon May 2019 #72
When I see an actual argument, guillaumeb May 2019 #93
It's addressed regularly Lordquinton May 2019 #94
No, it is ignored. guillaumeb May 2019 #95
And regarding diversion, and avoidance, this is a classic: guillaumeb May 2019 #96
"And in spite of your opinion, the Religion Group is not restricted to posts about abusive clergy." trotsky Apr 2019 #10
Such drama. guillaumeb Apr 2019 #12
And of course, you can't defend yourself, so you resort to whataboutism. trotsky May 2019 #17
Well, it is written that Jesus often chided people. MineralMan May 2019 #19
There's a Jesus for everybody. trotsky May 2019 #20
And for every occasion, apparently. MineralMan May 2019 #21
Metaphorical Jesus is my favorite Major Nikon May 2019 #37
So far you have avoided any commetn on the actual topic. guillaumeb May 2019 #23
China oppresses many people - theists and atheists. trotsky May 2019 #27
More ad hominem. guillaumeb May 2019 #29
Do you have anything to say on the subject? trotsky May 2019 #31
This is the Religion Group. guillaumeb May 2019 #33
Well then your view is wrong. trotsky May 2019 #40
More ad hominem. guillaumeb May 2019 #43
You bet your ass I'll point out your bad behavior. trotsky May 2019 #68
The motivation is clearly articulated Major Nikon May 2019 #38
Bingo. n/t trotsky May 2019 #41
Actually none of them Lordquinton May 2019 #35
Someone is trying very hard to claim they are being persecuted Major Nikon May 2019 #39
Never been so transparent Lordquinton May 2019 #45
China's mad at religion, partly since Christians made them buy opium Bretton Garcia May 2019 #47
It's a widespread phenomenon, that's for sure. Mariana Apr 2019 #13
Agreed. guillaumeb Apr 2019 #16
Or more, where many religions were fantastically abusive. Bretton Garcia May 2019 #49
Guil? Can we have an explicit acknowledgement from you here? Bretton Garcia May 2019 #50
Don't wait up Major Nikon May 2019 #52
Anyone want to post a picture of a chicken here too? Bretton Garcia May 2019 #53
You'd be amazed at what you'll learn in this group Major Nikon May 2019 #54
Highly selective memory and reasoning does the dirty work for them. Bretton Garcia May 2019 #55
As a system of ethics, religion generally sucks pretty hard Major Nikon May 2019 #57
Not only Britain but also partly Catholic France and Germany Bretton Garcia May 2019 #56
Yeah, they were somewhat less successful there compared to Africa and the Americas Major Nikon May 2019 #58
In China it was more recent too: till 1949. Bretton Garcia May 2019 #59
China isn't the US Major Nikon May 2019 #61
Basicly; China has faced bad assaults from Christian countries Bretton Garcia May 2019 #63
And then we have the United States, where European Christians MineralMan May 2019 #64
Good point Bretton Garcia May 2019 #65
The cultural genocide of indigenous peoples Voltaire2 May 2019 #66
I'm a culture specialist Bretton Garcia May 2019 #67
And that has nothing to do with the actual post. guillaumeb May 2019 #92
Religion often severely hurt indigenous people Bretton Garcia May 2019 #97
But, speaking of China, that decision that Islam is a problem guillaumeb May 2019 #101
Are there no significant Muslim terrorists or military alternative states? Bretton Garcia May 2019 #105
The context in northwest China is that Voltaire2 May 2019 #110
Directly connected to Afghanistan, Pakistan. Tajikistan Bretton Garcia May 2019 #112
China is suppressing every aspect of Islam. guillaumeb May 2019 #114
Nope. Outside of Xinjiang Islam is not Voltaire2 May 2019 #119
Incorrect. guillaumeb May 2019 #125
Well no that is simply false. Voltaire2 May 2019 #127
Several of your posts have equated Islam with violence. guillaumeb May 2019 #113
And some Islamic groups have been associated with violence. MineralMan May 2019 #116
It's typical. But some groups are more typically violent than others. Bretton Garcia May 2019 #118
Violence is a human behavior. guillaumeb May 2019 #123
And those "two dozen other countries"? Act_of_Reparation May 2019 #69
I don't think he knows much about those, so MineralMan May 2019 #70
I'm guessing the others aren't ATHEISTS!!!11111111!!! uriel1972 May 2019 #73
Guil, religions, censor or ignore contrary evidence Bretton Garcia May 2019 #76
Prior oppression excuses or validates current oppression? guillaumeb May 2019 #88
Continuing terrorist threats are often countered militarily Bretton Garcia May 2019 #98
Calling concentration camps re-education camps guillaumeb May 2019 #102
So no significant numbers of Muslims were dangerous Bretton Garcia May 2019 #106
Whataboutism, and continued blaiming of the victims for the oppression. guillaumeb May 2019 #115
Typical Gil Apologetics and Denial/blackouts Bretton Garcia May 2019 #117
Typical avoidance. guillaumeb May 2019 #124
There is no excusing what the Chinese government is doing. Act_of_Reparation May 2019 #121
And the Tibetans as well? guillaumeb May 2019 #126
They allow religious freedom unless your Voltaire2 May 2019 #128
The exiled Tibetan head of state is a theocrat who has repeatedly called for independence. Act_of_Reparation May 2019 #129
It's hard to get information from China itself. But? Bretton Garcia May 2019 #109
Thank you for that information. MineralMan May 2019 #111
Look Guill, uriel1972 May 2019 #74
American law restricts some religions implicitly though Bretton Garcia May 2019 #75
This sounds like a blatant toleration fro persecution. guillaumeb May 2019 #85
Muslim terrorism is not a fig leaf; Bretton Garcia May 2019 #99
Your posts indicate to me that you have not read what I posted about China. guillaumeb May 2019 #103
The article excerpt ? Bretton Garcia May 2019 #108
Well put, but he doesn't care. trotsky May 2019 #77
Classic whataboutism on your part. guillaumeb May 2019 #87
I wish you understood what that word really means. trotsky May 2019 #89
And who here says that abuse should be ignored? guillaumeb May 2019 #84
And those "two dozen other countries"? Act_of_Reparation May 2019 #82
We are talking about religious persecution. guillaumeb May 2019 #86
"the actual nature of the problem"? trotsky May 2019 #90
Yes, the actual nature of the problem. guillaumeb May 2019 #91
Bad conduct - often intensified especially by religion. Bretton Garcia May 2019 #100
China. guillaumeb May 2019 #104
Due to historical and present problems with Muslims Bretton Garcia May 2019 #107
David Brooks. Act_of_Reparation May 2019 #120
Answer the question. n/t trotsky May 2019 #122

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
1. USCIRF: Led by Tony Perkins and Gary Bauer
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 01:22 PM
Apr 2019

Current and former presidents of the "Family" Research Council. A bigotted anti-gay lobbying organization designed as a hate group by the SPLC.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
2. Refute what was written.
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 01:48 PM
Apr 2019

I have posted numerous article about the Chinese Government's ferocious attacks on theists.

And the articles come from a variety of sources.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
48. China is afraid of religion for good reasons
Sat May 4, 2019, 04:24 AM
May 2019

Last edited Sat May 4, 2019, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

British Christians sold opium to the Chinese in the 19th century. When many became addicted, and China protested, the British attacked and killed them. In the two Opium Wars, 1839-60.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
3. And....
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 01:50 PM
Apr 2019

USCIRF is an independent, bipartisan U.S. federal government commission, the first of its kind in the world, dedicated to defending the universal right to freedom of religion or belief abroad. USCIRF reviews the facts and circumstances of religious freedom violations and makes policy recommendations to the President, the Secretary of State, and Congress. USCIRF Commissioners are appointed by the President and the Congressional leadership of both political parties.

https://www.uscirf.gov/about-uscirf

Perkins and Bauer are some of the commissioners.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
9. WOW, he'll ally himself with the worst of the deplorables if they say what he wants to hear.
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 03:56 PM
Apr 2019

Disgusting to have that bullshit org promoted here on DU.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
78. You seem confused.
Thu May 9, 2019, 05:56 PM
May 2019

What is it that confuses you?

Are you aware that the subject group is a Government organization?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
80. #gaslighting
Fri May 10, 2019, 07:25 AM
May 2019
https://www.breakthesilencedv.org/gaslighting-what-is-it-and-how-to-know-if-youre-experiencing-it/

If you’ve ever been told any of the following things, it could be a sign that you are experiencing gaslighting.

“I don’t know what you’re talking about.”
“I never said that.”
“I don’t remember that.”
You are confused. You don’t know what you’re talking about.”
“You’re crazy.”
“You’re such a drama queen.”
“You’re so forgetful. Are you taking your meds?”
“That never happened” or “That didn’t happen that way.”


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Your shtick is old, g. Very, very old.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
81. Well, when you find a tool, you use it until it breaks or wears out.
Fri May 10, 2019, 08:25 AM
May 2019

That appears to be the principle that is in operation here. There are three "You seem confused" posts just in this thread.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
4. You do understand that we all know that China doesn't treat
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 01:58 PM
Apr 2019

religious groups with respect, right? We know that. You've told us again and again, even though we knew that all along. That, however, has nothing to do with anything but China. We agree. China should do better in its handling of religious minorities. OK. No problem.

But, that has nothing whatsoever to do with things like sexual child abuse by religious leaders. Nothing at all. You keep trying to whatabout that, but it's irrelevant to anything but discussions of China. There's no reason to bring it up in a thread about problems within a particular church or denomination. They are not related.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
5. I understand why you do not like these posts about China.
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 02:01 PM
Apr 2019

And what it says about the leaders.

And in spite of your opinion, the Religion Group is not restricted to posts about abusive clergy. If you want to have such a restricted Group, I suggest that you petition the Administrators.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
22. A symptom of what, exactly, guillaumeb?
Wed May 1, 2019, 10:10 AM
May 2019

Do tell. Are you implying that I'm somehow mentally incompetent? I'm certaintly not, I assure you.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
15. Alleging other people are "confused" is classic gaslighting behavior
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 05:24 PM
Apr 2019

Meanwhile anyone who may have been “confused” about the motivation need only to read the confession.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
25. You are confused.
Wed May 1, 2019, 07:21 PM
May 2019

I asked a question. It was not an assertion.

And you use the term gaslighting incorrectly here.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
28. No, he's using it correctly.
Thu May 2, 2019, 07:51 AM
May 2019
https://www.britannica.com/topic/gaslighting
...Its effect is to gradually undermine the victim’s confidence in his own ability to distinguish truth from falsehood, right from wrong, or reality from appearance, thereby rendering him pathologically dependent on the gaslighter in his thinking or feelings.


Why do you constantly tell people they are confused? If you really think they are, then clarify your words and help them understand. Don't attack them. Be a better person than this, guillaumeb.

Additional information about gaslighting when it comes to personal interactions:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting

2. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.
You know they said they would do something; you know you heard it. But they out and out deny it. It makes you start questioning your reality—maybe they never said that thing. And the more they do this, the more you question your reality and start accepting theirs.

5. Their actions do not match their words.
When dealing with a person or entity that gaslights, look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying. What they are saying means nothing; it is just talk. What they are doing is the issue.

7. They know confusion weakens people.
Gaslighters know that people like having a sense of stability and normalcy. Their goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question everything. And humans' natural tendency is to look to the person or entity that will help you feel more stable—and that happens to be the gaslighter.


I predict your reaction to this post will either be to ignore it, or to grab a different definition and claim that you aren't actually gaslighting because your actions don't fit THAT particular description. But that is deceptive and deceitful as well, because gaslighting is a range of behaviors, a pattern. You don't have to engage in all the behaviors to be guilty of gaslighting.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
32. Since you can provide absolutely no evidence in favor of your opinion,
Thu May 2, 2019, 02:21 PM
May 2019

then Major Nikon are correct since we could.

You are still free to have it, no matter how wrong it may be. I guess you give up again.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
36. When called out for gaslighting, the predictable response is more gaslighting
Fri May 3, 2019, 06:23 AM
May 2019

When someone continuously alleges everyone else around them is "confused", you can be reasonably certain they are engaging in gaslighting. When they then contradict obvious facts and attempt to create a false reality, you can be certain of it.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
44. Being incorrect is one thing
Fri May 3, 2019, 08:31 PM
May 2019

When one continues to insist their nonsense is correct despite evidence to the contrary and everyone else is wrong, then it becomes something else.

It's either abhorrent or just garden variety childishness. Coming from an adult I'm not sure which is worse.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
46. No arguments were offered
Sat May 4, 2019, 12:23 AM
May 2019

He got comments, but he choose to not participate in the discussion. He actually threw out ad homenins, calling people confused.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
51. Par for the course
Sat May 4, 2019, 03:43 PM
May 2019

The closest you get to an argument is an endless stream of fallacies followed by gaslighting in a lame attempt to convince someone the fallacies offered are actually somehow real arguments.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
60. It's really ignorant too
Sun May 5, 2019, 05:21 AM
May 2019

At best. Glossing over a rich and theologically different culture by just saying they are "atheist" and whitewashing their actual spiritual background. Like why isn't he going on about the atheists in Myanmar ethnically cleansing Muslims? Because those atheists are Buddhists, and that's harder to spin his way. But a culture most are ignorant about because they don't follow the western trio? under the bus they go!

Hmmm... Isn't there a word that describes that?

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
62. Those mean atheists are picking on his (former?) religion
Sun May 5, 2019, 07:45 AM
May 2019

...by correctly pointing out the RCC's culture of child rape. Such sins require a "counterpoint".

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
71. As if there's a comparisson
Tue May 7, 2019, 01:13 AM
May 2019

There is depth and history to the issues in china. With Rome, it's literally just a worldwide cover-up of child-rape.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
72. There's cover up and there's providing cover
Tue May 7, 2019, 01:26 AM
May 2019

As someone once said, raping children is universal. The difference is other organizations that engaged in covering up child rape were forced to either change their policies or cease to exist. In the case of the RCC they can just go on with their culture of child rape because they have millions of members that will distract, obsfucate, excuse, and lobby against reform. Thanks to the efforts of the child rape apologists, they also have millions more that will keep filling the collection plates making real reform unnecessary.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
93. When I see an actual argument,
Fri May 10, 2019, 08:29 PM
May 2019

I will respond.

Funny how some few cannot address the actual post, and prefer to divert.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
95. No, it is ignored.
Fri May 10, 2019, 08:36 PM
May 2019

Interesting how, when the oppression is committed by atheists, a certain few always attack the motivation of the poster rather than admit that oppression is a human behavior unrelated to religion or anything but a desire to dominate others.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
10. "And in spite of your opinion, the Religion Group is not restricted to posts about abusive clergy."
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 03:58 PM
Apr 2019

That's the opinion of literally NO ONE in this group.

Why do you behave like this? Why can't you just be decent and tell the truth?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
17. And of course, you can't defend yourself, so you resort to whataboutism.
Wed May 1, 2019, 07:38 AM
May 2019

Typical.

Sure would be nice if you could help improve things instead of constantly insulting and attacking.

Would Jesus approve of your behavior?

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
19. Well, it is written that Jesus often chided people.
Wed May 1, 2019, 08:21 AM
May 2019

I'm not sure he was quoted as approving others doing so, though. I suppose some liken themselves to Jesus, and take that liberty, however. Of course, there's no way of knowing whether Jesus said any of that stuff, or even whether he existed or not.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
20. There's a Jesus for everybody.
Wed May 1, 2019, 09:49 AM
May 2019

Supply-side Jesus for the Republicans.

Violent, angry Jesus of the temple for the vengeful.

Judgmental, vindictive Jesus of parables and cursed fig trees for the crusaders.

And on and on.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
21. And for every occasion, apparently.
Wed May 1, 2019, 09:51 AM
May 2019
Book Jesus NOW for your wedding reception and custom wine miracles!

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
23. So far you have avoided any commetn on the actual topic.
Wed May 1, 2019, 07:14 PM
May 2019

Interesting.

Did the inclusion of China make this a difficult subject to address?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
27. China oppresses many people - theists and atheists.
Thu May 2, 2019, 07:33 AM
May 2019

They crack down on anyone who presents a threat to the state, regardless of their religious beliefs, hairstyle, sex, gender, number of fingers, or whether they have an appendix. This is a FACT, but instead you try to falsely frame it as China oppressing only theists.

I find it fascinating though that your primary concern when posting about China - because you CONSTANTLY comment about this - is your intense need to feel like this is a sore spot for atheists. There is literally not one atheist here I've seen who is denying the oppression that happens in China - every single one has simply asked you what it has to do with atheism. So far, you have been unable to answer. Instead, you admit that mentioning China at every possible opportunity is your "counterpoint" to the outrageous and ongoing sex abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church , and you push a narrative that somehow the topic of China makes atheists here uncomfortable.

You believe what you need to believe, g. But be aware that you simply continue to marginalize yourself and prove why you aren't here for any actual dialog.

Perhaps if you could show how your religion makes you a better person, instead of a meaner and more vindictive person? Could you show that? Show us how you think Jesus would want you to behave.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
31. Do you have anything to say on the subject?
Thu May 2, 2019, 02:20 PM
May 2019

Here, I'll repeat my comment for you without the reference to your behavior:

China oppresses many people - theists and atheists.

They crack down on anyone who presents a threat to the state, regardless of their religious beliefs, hairstyle, sex, gender, number of fingers, or whether they have an appendix. This is a FACT, but instead you try to falsely frame it as China oppressing only theists.

I find it fascinating though that your primary concern when posting about China - because you CONSTANTLY comment about this - is your intense need to feel like this is a sore spot for atheists. There is literally not one atheist here I've seen who is denying the oppression that happens in China - every single one has simply asked you what it has to do with atheism. So far, you have been unable to answer. Instead, you admit that mentioning China at every possible opportunity is your "counterpoint" to the outrageous and ongoing sex abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church , and you push a narrative that somehow the topic of China makes atheists here uncomfortable.


Am I right or am I wrong? Will you answer?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
33. This is the Religion Group.
Thu May 2, 2019, 04:43 PM
May 2019

Thus the focus by me, in this group, on oppression concerning religion.

And my own views is that, for some few, this focus on a group of atheists who control the Chinese Government causes some cognitive dissonance.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
40. Well then your view is wrong.
Fri May 3, 2019, 07:49 AM
May 2019

What annoys people here is your constant misframing, your gaslighting, your use of whataboutism, your hypocrisy, and your need to judge others and dispense "eye for an eye" justice. As you've admitted, you don't like people talking about religion-linked sex abuse scandals, and so you think that by posting about China you're engaging in some FOX News style "fair and balanced" coverage.

But I see that you are unable to acknowledge the facts I posted (yet again), so your bias is clear and your agenda exposed.

China persecutes theists AND atheists. A fact you can't acknowledge, because it destroys your position.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
68. You bet your ass I'll point out your bad behavior.
Mon May 6, 2019, 07:38 AM
May 2019

Here's a pro tip: stop behaving like that, and I won't be able to anymore.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
38. The motivation is clearly articulated
Fri May 3, 2019, 06:32 AM
May 2019

The RCC's culture of child rape requires a "counterpoint". Whataboutists gonna whatabout.


Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
35. Actually none of them
Fri May 3, 2019, 04:13 AM
May 2019

He aimed several points at you and your actions, but he never attacked you instead of your arguments/actions.

There were no flat out insults.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
39. Someone is trying very hard to claim they are being persecuted
Fri May 3, 2019, 06:42 AM
May 2019

It's almost as if they are trying to invent scenarios in which they are being attacked and anyone who doesn't see it must be "confused".

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
47. China's mad at religion, partly since Christians made them buy opium
Sat May 4, 2019, 04:13 AM
May 2019

China is mad at religion, partly because 1) British Christian traders sold opium to the Chinese. 2) When many Chinese became addicted, and 3) the Chinese objected, the British killed them. In the two Opium Wars, 1839-60.

It is 4) estimated that before all that, China had the largest economy in the world. When it was over, its economy had been reduced by half.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

Mariana

(14,965 posts)
13. It's a widespread phenomenon, that's for sure.
Tue Apr 30, 2019, 04:21 PM
Apr 2019
USCIRF recommends that the State Department redesignate the following 10 countries as “countries of particular concern,” or CPCs: Burma, China, Eritrea, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan.

USCIRF thinks six additional countries should be cited as CPCs: Central African Republic, Nigeria, Russia, Syria, Uzbekistan and Vietnam.

The commission adds that it has given 12 other nations its Tier 2 designation for the next most serious level of religious freedom violations: Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Cuba, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Laos, Malaysia and Turkey.

In addition, the commission is calling on the State Department to list five nonstate actors, or organizations outside a government’s control, as “entities of particular concern”: the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, or ISIS; the Taliban in Afghanistan; al-Shabab in Somalia; Houthis in Yemen; and Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS, in Syria.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
49. Or more, where many religions were fantastically abusive.
Sat May 4, 2019, 02:57 PM
May 2019

The abuses by Christianity, in China, were not extraordinarily abusive by the standards of the 19th and 20th centuries. And the era when opiods were first legal even in the west. Still? Today those abuses are considered grave enough, that most Americans, Christians today cannot face or acknowledge them.

It is to their credit and generosity though, that when Trump proposed restrictions on their exports, the Chinese, it was said, most readily and generously agreed to curtail exports of say, oxycontyn.

Generously, these atheists were not vindictive. Though they were taking precautions to prevent further abuses.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
50. Guil? Can we have an explicit acknowledgement from you here?
Sat May 4, 2019, 03:06 PM
May 2019

We need ALL Christians to finally step forward and confess, finally take responsibility for, and finally face, their specific sins.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
53. Anyone want to post a picture of a chicken here too?
Sat May 4, 2019, 05:16 PM
May 2019

Like the senator who put a chicken at the chair Barr would've been sitting at last week. When he chickened out, and didn't show.

Too many Christians run away from evidence of their bad deeds. And decline to answer objections ...or even acknowledge them. Even look at them.

It's a kind of going into Denial, or a "blackout.". Something they just can't face. If they don't look at it closely, they won't have a clear memory of it. So they can forget/repress it forever, they think.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
54. You'd be amazed at what you'll learn in this group
Sat May 4, 2019, 05:53 PM
May 2019

What I didn't know is that anything any religionist does that's bad is attributed to "human behavior", even when organized religion encourages and/or enables the behavior. However, anything any religionist does that's good is due to religion.

Kinda funny how that works, but there you have it.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
55. Highly selective memory and reasoning does the dirty work for them.
Sat May 4, 2019, 06:12 PM
May 2019

Researching these subjects suggests a kind of infantilism, that makes it harder to face sins.

Some ethics encourage that. If you sin, but aren't adult enough to face it or understand it, then you are to be forgiven. Since you "know not what you do."

Which encourages a kind of false, willful and therefore culpable blindness or ignorance.

To be sure, educated people know that Ethics and Life are a vast and much-contended field of study. And few things are certain. But the problems and sins of the Churches are so vast, that today, in its case, we should remove the benefit of the doubt for, especially, the churches.

(By the way? Accept as genuine today, only the words of "Bretton Garcia," two words, with caps.... Of course. I alone am perfect.)

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
57. As a system of ethics, religion generally sucks pretty hard
Sat May 4, 2019, 08:06 PM
May 2019

Religionists, and especially Christians like to point out the golden rule in their book. So yeah, that's not a bad one, but you'll find a version of it in pretty much any system of ethics whether religious or secular. In their book you'll also find a requirement to take disobedient children to the town elders for a ritual stoning to death.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
56. Not only Britain but also partly Catholic France and Germany
Sat May 4, 2019, 08:00 PM
May 2019

... began to take over China. So Catholicism was implicated.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
58. Yeah, they were somewhat less successful there compared to Africa and the Americas
Sat May 4, 2019, 08:08 PM
May 2019

So at least on some level you can understand why they don't have a high level of trust for Christianity.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
59. In China it was more recent too: till 1949.
Sun May 5, 2019, 02:06 AM
May 2019

Last edited Sun May 5, 2019, 07:11 AM - Edit history (1)

1) Attempts by partly religious, Christian forces to take over China went on until as recently as 1949.

2) China also has continued to have a lot more immediate trouble with specifically Islam, than America did. Because it is geographically much, much closer to the centers of militant and sometimes nuclear-armed Islam, it has always been at risk for Muslim incursions on the scale of a hundred thousand "911"s.

You'd think it would be hard to top religions going into a country, addicting it to opium, and then killing those who resisted. But in a nuclear age, it is possible for religions to do far worse than even that.

That's why the founders of America very firmly separated their new state, from religion. A separation that came far later to the rest of the world however.

..

Marx by the way, thought that religion itself was kind of opium: "religion is the opiod of the masses." The theory is probably that religion in part tells us optimistic fairy tales, makes false promises of heaven, to make people feel better. So they won't rebel against their exploitative leaders.

So the connection between selling opium and peddling religion, is closer than some might think.

Major Nikon

(36,899 posts)
61. China isn't the US
Sun May 5, 2019, 07:39 AM
May 2019

China has 4 times the population of the US with roughly the same land mass. The government still mostly owns and controls the means of production, which means the government has a significant say in where you live and where you work. As you point out, they also aren't geographically isolated from their enemies in the way the US is. Despite these challenges, China manages to keep it's people from starving and does a better job of keeping them out of poverty than the US.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
63. Basicly; China has faced bad assaults from Christian countries
Sun May 5, 2019, 02:17 PM
May 2019

But has managed to help its poor very systematically. While preserving itself from further foreign, Christian and Muslim assaults.

It has faced an even tougher religious threat than America. And has reached therefore for tougher restraints on religious aggressors.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
64. And then we have the United States, where European Christians
Sun May 5, 2019, 02:32 PM
May 2019

exterminated the religions and cultures of the indigenous peoples they found here, along with committing genocide against those same peoples. This is the legacy of European Christianity around the world. Christianity has always intended to replace all other religions, and has often used force and genocide to further that goal. The same process has occurred in many places, with mixed success on the Christian's part.

It's no wonder that China, Japan, and other Eastern Asian and some Pacific cultures rejected Christianity and are still doing so, as best they can. Both China and Japan have been largely successful in keeping foreign religions from destroying their ancient culture. Other nations, smaller in size and population, have not fared as well, but have reasserted their independence in more recent decades.

When the missionaries arrive, indigenous peoples are at risk of extermination or enslavement. That is the lesson of Christianity. The best defense is to send them away or kill them on arrival.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
65. Good point
Sun May 5, 2019, 03:06 PM
May 2019

An interesting perspective: viewing China as almost an indigenous population defending itself from foreign religious imperialism.

Roughly matches what I've heard, inferring from some Chinese themselves.

Voltaire2

(14,632 posts)
66. The cultural genocide of indigenous peoples
Sun May 5, 2019, 03:54 PM
May 2019

in the United States was part of our government policies explicitly up to the 1970s. It remains an implicit policy.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
67. I'm a culture specialist
Mon May 6, 2019, 01:45 AM
May 2019

And studied and worked with and for Indians on some well-known legal cases.

I studied and opposed the destruction of their traditional cultures. But I also supported them when they wanted to integrate into higher education, and higher-paying jobs.

It was a delicate balance. But I always tried to help them in whatever culture they chose. Except, in the southwest, Catholicism.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
97. Religion often severely hurt indigenous people
Sat May 11, 2019, 04:44 AM
May 2019

And did not give them even Freedom of Religion, culture.

In response to that, some of my ancestors founded/(and others fought?) the United States of America. Which in part at least attempted to rectify that sort of oppression. By setting up 1) "freedom of religion." While simultaneously 2) strongly making sure that no religions would control our secular government.

My philosophy has followed that. Allowing freedom of religion. But making sure no religion controlled our country. Especially, violent religion.

When working with Indians, I encouraged them to follow their traditional culture, religions, if they wanted. But I wanted to makes sure no religion totally dominated them, or our government.

China is in a similar position. In the 19th century, it had been all but colonized by Christian soldiers. And it has therefore been attempting to make sure that militant religion - like much of Islam - does not again become a problem. As it has been in America, in the Middle East, and in the Far East.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
101. But, speaking of China, that decision that Islam is a problem
Sat May 11, 2019, 02:48 PM
May 2019

is oppression. And trying to equate Islam with terror is popular among autocrats.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
105. Are there no significant Muslim terrorists or military alternative states?
Sat May 11, 2019, 03:43 PM
May 2019

That seems like a pretty pretty view. A little over idealistic, head in sand

Voltaire2

(14,632 posts)
110. The context in northwest China is that
Sun May 12, 2019, 07:17 AM
May 2019

there is an ongoing low level separatist insurrection in the region (Xinjiang) backed by wahabbi jihadists organizations.

This doesn’t justify the mass detentions, but it is a gross and intentional mischaracterization to claim that China is simply suppressing Islam.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
112. Directly connected to Afghanistan, Pakistan. Tajikistan
Sun May 12, 2019, 09:38 AM
May 2019

And close to Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan.

All listed by Guil's own source as oppressive Muslim areas. And, as Turkic, connected all the way down thru Turkmenistan, to Turkey, Iraq, Syria.
Also listed as oppressive Muslim areas.

In particular, nuclear-armed Pakistan would be a worry. Not to mention Afghanistan. Which gave Americans a lot of problems.

Having lived in Turkish territories myself, I know that many Turkish Muslims are perfectly good people. But I personally don't blame China for being very, very anxious about its Muslim regions directly connected to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
114. China is suppressing every aspect of Islam.
Sun May 12, 2019, 10:42 AM
May 2019

Including praying and fasting.

As to the insurrection, is that not legitimate in the face of Chinese oppression in an area that is mainly non-Chinese?

Voltaire2

(14,632 posts)
119. Nope. Outside of Xinjiang Islam is not
Sun May 12, 2019, 03:42 PM
May 2019

being treated differently than other religions in China. Religious organizations that do not threaten the interests of the state are left alone. Those that do are repressed, frequently in reprehensible ways.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
125. Incorrect.
Tue May 14, 2019, 04:16 PM
May 2019

The Chinese Government is attempting to control every aspect of theism.

Your attempt at normalizing the oppressive behavior fails.

Voltaire2

(14,632 posts)
127. Well no that is simply false.
Tue May 14, 2019, 05:54 PM
May 2019

Religious organizations that do not pose a threat to the authority of the state are left alone. Religious organizations that do pose a threat, even if they are non-theistic, like Falun Gong, are repressed. Actually any organization in China that presents any threat to the regime is going to get repressed. It isn’t about religion, or theism, it is about an authoritarian regime determined to remain in control.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
116. And some Islamic groups have been associated with violence.
Sun May 12, 2019, 11:23 AM
May 2019

It's an issue. Of course, some Christian groups, as well, have been associated with violence, recently and historically. Even some Hindu groups have been so associated with violence.

As have political groups not connected to religion. Violence seems to be a common denominator for human societies, doesn't it?

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
118. It's typical. But some groups are more typically violent than others.
Sun May 12, 2019, 02:56 PM
May 2019

In Turkey, Turkish Muslims were not so violent at all. But move over to say, ISIS....

In particular, go to Afghanistan - close to western China, which we are talking about - and you've got lots of angry well-armed Muslims.

So yup, 1) Muslims overall, like any group, include violent folks. And 2) for that matter? Some of the most violent are, precisely, right next to the part of China we're looking at.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
123. Violence is a human behavior.
Tue May 14, 2019, 04:12 PM
May 2019

There are many human behaviors that, while having some evolutionary utility, can be toxic.

MineralMan

(147,334 posts)
70. I don't think he knows much about those, so
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:50 AM
May 2019

he probably doesn't want to talk about them. I'm not sure how much he knows about China, either, though. If it's not in the Guardian, it's not news, I guess. It's the atheists, see. They're bad, you understand, right?

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
76. Guil, religions, censor or ignore contrary evidence
Wed May 8, 2019, 05:47 AM
May 2019

That's how religions control people; in part by keeping them faithful; by keeping them from finding out where their religion did not work.

In this case Guil lists, but does not adequately note that, overwhelmingly, 1) the very discriminatory countries are very religious. Or 2) were victims of very restrictive religions, earlier in their history.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
88. Prior oppression excuses or validates current oppression?
Fri May 10, 2019, 07:13 PM
May 2019

An interesting attempt at excusing what the Chinese Government is doing.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
102. Calling concentration camps re-education camps
Sat May 11, 2019, 02:50 PM
May 2019

is an attempt at normalizing and excusing oppression.

Classic victim blaming.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
106. So no significant numbers of Muslims were dangerous
Sat May 11, 2019, 03:51 PM
May 2019

In Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Pakistan/India, or the Muslim capital Saudi Arabia, or Yemen, or China?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
115. Whataboutism, and continued blaiming of the victims for the oppression.
Sun May 12, 2019, 10:43 AM
May 2019

And these tactics are common on the right as well.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
121. There is no excusing what the Chinese government is doing.
Mon May 13, 2019, 07:02 AM
May 2019

The point is your presentation of the situation—that this is a case of the Chinese government oppressing Muslims because they're theists—is demonstrably incorrect. They're oppressing Muslims because of the history of violent separatist movements in the region. End. Of. Story.

If the Chinese government was purely motivated by a philosophical objection to theism, they would have just banned religion thirty or forty years ago. And yet they didn't. Strange.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
126. And the Tibetans as well?
Tue May 14, 2019, 04:17 PM
May 2019

The Chinese authoritarians are willing to allow the pretense of religious freedom.

Voltaire2

(14,632 posts)
128. They allow religious freedom unless your
Wed May 15, 2019, 04:55 AM
May 2019

religious organization is challenging the authority of the state, as it does in Tibet.

China is an authoritarian regime. The regime does not tolerate any threats to its authority.

It is not however repressing religious practices in general.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
129. The exiled Tibetan head of state is a theocrat who has repeatedly called for independence.
Wed May 15, 2019, 07:27 AM
May 2019

But you already knew that.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
109. It's hard to get information from China itself. But?
Sun May 12, 2019, 04:15 AM
May 2019

Looking even at Gil's source, Perkins and the USCIRF? Note that even it lists chiefly, among its major oppressors of religion, nine or ten Muslim countries.

So 1) the main oppressors of religion ... are other religious countries; oppressing their religious competitors.

And 2) furthermore, what do you know? From Gil's own cited article, we find that at least nine or so of the worst oppressors of religion... are essentially all the often Muslim, sometimes terrorist militarist countries SURROUNDING, bordering ...CHINA.

These are countries that have often caused problems for Americans, too. Including:

A) Afghanistan.
B) Iraq
C) Pakistan
D) Syria
E) Tajikistan
F) Turkey
G) Uzbekistan
H) Turkmenistan
I) Uzbekistan

In addition to the often suppressive and militaristic Muslim countries - which surround China - Gil's article also mentions J) Saudi Arabia of course. Which, as the home of Mohammed, is the spiritual capital of Islam. And a great friend of Donald Trump. And partial to the idea of killing American/Saudi liberal journalists.

So in sum? Is 1) notoriously hard to know what is going on in the interior of China, and its own local Muslim communitues However?

It is 2) easy to find a long and terrible history of religions like Christianity, outrageously exploiting and attacking China. And it is 3) easy to discover that China is surrounded by very Muslim countries; most or all (according to Gil's own source), with a habit of oppreesing, attacking, religions contrary to their own.

And, 4) we add, those Muslim countries have a habit of attacking anyone who does not agree with their own Muslim religion; including atheists.

When the Russians and then Chinese attempted to set up atheist states in 1917 and then c. 1946, they were attacked by religious forces. And to this day, religions remain a major threat. To say, rational America. And? To China.

Particularly worrying to China is, say, nuclear-armed Pakistan. Which broke away from Hindu India in a violent revolution, not so long ago.

China is no doubt concerned about ties between its own Muslim communities, and their very violent and famous intolerant religious brothers. Who surround China. And who often murderously oppose atheism.

And we add, 5) the misdeeds of Muslim oppressors vastly exceeded reeducation. Their misdeeds included killing of millions of "heretics" or religious competitors. In terrorism, murders, and countless religious wars.

uriel1972

(4,261 posts)
74. Look Guill,
Tue May 7, 2019, 02:08 AM
May 2019

We all agree what's happening in China is horrendous. We all agree persecution of people based on religion, OR lack of religion is abominable and unforgivable.

However, trying to make capital on it is not very nice either. Using it to try and counter criticism of religious orders aiding, abetting and protecting paedophiles is a bit nasty and lacking in a certain style at the very least.

I suppose if you can't make a coherent rebuttal of criticism there's always distraction.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
75. American law restricts some religions implicitly though
Wed May 8, 2019, 05:31 AM
May 2019

If your religion requires unwilling human sacrifice for instance.

So not ALL religious practices are completely honored. Not if they break the law, and hurt other people.

So when the US and China confront religious, Muslim terrorism? We might honor much of Islam; but not if or where it links to what we consider murder.

Since the Chinese live in very close. even overlapping proximity to terrorist Islamic factions, they have chosen to "re-educate" some Chinese Muslims. Emphasizing one hopes the peaceful side of Islam.

In any case, that is what some have recently done in the West. Though not by camps. But in the media, stressing the peaceful side of all religions.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
85. This sounds like a blatant toleration fro persecution.
Fri May 10, 2019, 06:41 PM
May 2019

As long as that persecution can be hidden under the fig leaf of "religious, Muslim terrorism".

The right loves to promote this meme.

And this:

Since the Chinese live in very close. even overlapping proximity to terrorist Islamic factions, they have chosen to "re-educate" some Chinese Muslims. Emphasizing one hopes the peaceful side of Islam.


could easily have been written by the Chinese Government as a way of misleading people as to what exactly is happening in these Chinese concentration camps.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
103. Your posts indicate to me that you have not read what I posted about China.
Sat May 11, 2019, 02:51 PM
May 2019

And that is the most favorable reading.

Otherwise, you are defending oppression because, in my view, the victims are theists.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
108. The article excerpt ?
Sat May 11, 2019, 04:04 PM
May 2019

Last edited Sat May 11, 2019, 05:19 PM - Edit history (4)

Simply assumes, but does not demonstrate, that few Muslims in China are dangerous. While in fact, loads of evidence suggests they are .

Even your own highly unreliable article, mentions problems with contiguous Muslim Pakistan. And the Muslim capital, Saudi. As oppressive religious/Muslim regimes.

Is all Islam bad? Some say it is. But in any case, many of the particular varieties of Islam all around (and in) China are heavily associated with the intolerant and warlike varieties of Islam.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
77. Well put, but he doesn't care.
Wed May 8, 2019, 12:42 PM
May 2019

He's already declared that's his intention, to provide a "counterpoint" to the RCC sex abuse scandals. And it's not whataboutism, according to him, well, because he says so.

Hell, he's so committed to the cause he can't even acknowledge that China persecutes atheists, too. Because, shhhhh, it's not about religion, it's about showing either an allegiance to something other than the state, or an outright opposition to it. Falun Gong is a perfect example - you don't have to believe in gods to practice it, but members and the organization are persecuted nonetheless.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
87. Classic whataboutism on your part.
Fri May 10, 2019, 06:46 PM
May 2019

Ignore the issue of atheists persecuting theists because you are so committed to your own narrative that you cannot acknowledge what my posts actually show.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
89. I wish you understood what that word really means.
Fri May 10, 2019, 08:05 PM
May 2019

Instead of redefining it for your own purposes.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
84. And who here says that abuse should be ignored?
Fri May 10, 2019, 06:38 PM
May 2019

There is no rebuttal. And implying that my motivation is to excuse or ignore the issue is contradicted by my own posts about this very issue.

And given that these posts about China concern persecution of theists, it should be obvious why the posts are in the religion group.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
82. And those "two dozen other countries"?
Fri May 10, 2019, 08:33 AM
May 2019

Come on. Let's talk about the "two dozen other countries" on that last. They're all officially atheist, too, right?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
86. We are talking about religious persecution.
Fri May 10, 2019, 06:43 PM
May 2019

And since a few here focus exclusively on repression by theists, in the interest of fuller understanding of the actual nature of the problem, I concentrated on the Chinese Government.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
90. "the actual nature of the problem"?
Fri May 10, 2019, 08:07 PM
May 2019

Please explain.

Do you believe that it is impossible for people to be religiously motivated to persecute other religious people?

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
107. Due to historical and present problems with Muslims
Sat May 11, 2019, 03:59 PM
May 2019

Last edited Sat May 11, 2019, 04:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Including terrorism and wars of oppression. With Muslim executions, killings, far worse than re-education camps. In many if not most of the Muslim countries bordering China. Suggesting a threat to China.

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