I thought it was the theists doing the persecuting! I'm disappointed!

Theists never persecute others, I understand. They are always the ones being persecuted, or so I hear.

However, I have edited my thread title, to avoid conflicts of understanding.

A "counterpoint" is needed showing that some atheist somewhere in the world also did something bad.

but the point of my earlier post was my own disappointment that I wasn't sure which way the persecution was going!

Tell a Theist that you don't think there is any thing or anyone waiting for you when you die.

It's a threat, right?

I think that's how it goes, anyway...

Aer those also to be avoided?

to be allowed to stand.

You DAMN WELL KNOW communism is a state theocracy. It is a political religion that permits no competition. It may have an official policy of 'atheism' in disallowing competition, but it remains a theocracy with political word-substitution.

Back in the day, Stalin simply deployed communism with simple word substitution:

Theocracy: A system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.
Communism: A system of government in which the state rules in the name of The Party.

They operate the same. (Particularly if you view entirely theocratic governments as man-made constructs for the purposes of consolidating political power, since after all, no gods appear to actually exist anyway)

Stalin was a seminary student, and just slapped the theocratic template on communism, because he wanted no rivals, no competition. It was a naked power grab, using a well-established theocratic playbook.

Stalin's goal, as he implemented Communism, and the modern Communism variant present in China, is not by any means 'atheistic'. It's simply a monopoly on all political capital. It's what separates Communism and Socialism. Communism seized the means of production and central planning with absolute monopolistic power. It could not tolerate ANY ideological dissent. In non-communist states that are also socialist, faith/religion/church may be separate, or co-mingled as part of government, and *not viewed* as a direct rival to Party Power.

There are, in fact, secular socialist countries that do not view religion/faith as a direct rival to state authority. Funny you never use them as examples. (Because they are antitheses to your agenda.)


Your tired flogging of China as a Atheistic State Boogey-man both misunderstands Communism, and Atheism. In the vein of 'whataboutism', it borders on 'yellow journalism' type smears, which I think you should be ashamed of. (somewhat ironic because 'whataboutism' was a soviet propaganda technique) Please educate yourself, and cease abusing the Chinese for your feeble attempt to make 'atheism' look 'as bad as theism'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#Soviet_Union_period

"Stinky Bug Argument" - I'm going to use that from now on, especially as it relates to topics involving China. Thanks!

By the way, nice to see your screen name again!

And so far, no one here wrote to contradict that assertion.

I previously wrote about the concept of civil religion and a few frequent posters insisted that there could be no such concept.

The fact here is that the Chinese Government is led by atheists.

So the result, as I have said before, is that authoritarians rule in the same way no matter their faith or lack thereof.

As to your last, rather bizarre point, I am speaking of the leaders of the Chinese Government. That you would attempt to mis-frame this as an attack on the Chinese people is ridiculous.

Welcome back.

Not for the purposes you are flogging here.

They don't believe in a supernatural god, possibly, hard to say on an individual basis, but I'll allow that. In that small, simple way, yes they are 'atheists', except that's not how you're using it.

You're using it as an example how 'atheists' treat religious people. In this context, we should not consider them 'atheists'. They have substituted a political ideology (communism, and it's historical intolerance of religion) for a religious, or even a secular state.

It's why you are limited to just china for this purpose. There are other secular (atheist) states that don't work for this purpose, because they aren't aggressively hostile to religion, because they lack the Communist (subset/version 2.0 Soviet) ideology.

It's not atheism because it's not a lack of religion. It's a political ideology wedged into the space where a religious theocracy would normally occupy. You don't talk about Sweden in this context because the people are secular/atheist, but religion is well tolerated, because it has not been replaced by communism.

If Sweden was politically communist, you could then use it as an example of continuous religious oppression, because the conflict is borne by communism, not atheism.

Hell, Sweden still has an official state church. It's not an issue for them, because they aren't communists.

As you point out, they don't want threats to their power. Atheists have no agenda. They don't meet once a week in their clubhouse to conspire.

An atheist may oppose the status quo, but they are not a bloc. They may join a bloc, but it would be one made up of various personalities and beliefs.

As to a statement made in this thread, is it actually a fact that Chinese party members are all atheists?

That's kind of the default state in China. There's sort of a folk religion that has been going on there for many centuries. It's a variation on animism and ancestor worship, sort of. It's not a theistic religion. It's still in place in China, and many Chinese have a connection to it, but it doesn't exclude atheism, really.

There just isn't a strong theistic religious tradition in China. So, atheism is a natural offshoot of that culture.

prior to 1921. Some of them are legal and licensed within certain political boundaries today.

Minus Communism, China would be, religiously, much more cosmopolitan today. Though, given the large subset that border on Philosophy rather than supernatural religion, it would probably still qualify as a 'secular' nation.

Ethnicly cleansing Muslims.

Smile and nod when Theists lecture about this being a "Christian Nation". And especially don't ask how many time God is mentioned in the Constitution.

supports anything in the Constitution. Our system of government is completely alien to anything mentioned in the Bible. Our concepts of liberty, elections, divided government and everything else was not even considered in biblical times. Some will point you toward the First Amendment and its Freedom of Religion portion, but when you mention that it is actually freedom of worship and is inclusive of all religions and of no religion at all, you'll get stony silence. Or mention the "No religious test" clause.

There is nothing in the Bible that supports our secular, Constitutional form of government. In fact, our government is specifically proscribed from basing anything on any religion.

The Bible had nothing to do with the founding of the United States of America. Nothing whatsoever. Ours is a secular nation, not a Christian nation or any other kind of religious nation.

or the Treaty of Tripoli. Historical documents that directly support your statements.

felt persecuted (or even insulted) for my beliefs. I imagine that for the first part of my life (12 years of Catholic school) that was due in large part because most of the people I interacted with held similar beliefs.

But even now, working in a diverse environment (at a state university) I have not experienced any sense of persecution or negativity. Personally, I think that it's important for me to continuously examine my faith, so I appreciate the opportunity to discuss differences and to find common ground if/when possible.

Just my own thoughts - thank you for posting!

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

Those who claim to be persecuted are usually people who engage in persecution of others. It is a strange reverse strategy on their parts. Most people don't do such things.

For example, people who scream at lgbtq people or women entering Planned Parenthood clinics often complain of being persecuted for their faith. Projection. It's a defensive sort of whataboutism.

Your sarcasm is great. I remember you had the honor of having your one of your sarcastic posts go viral. It was a good one from what I recall.

This one's pretty good too. In fact, I hope you don't mind if I steal it. You know, that is the highest form of flattery.

Thanks!

11. Don't draw a cartoon of or make even the slightest joke about their prophet

Perish the thought...

I have always found that exercise to be useful in identifying other like minded individuals in the assembly.