e.g. Paul knew someone who had been to the fourth(?) level and back. Light is used in Christianity to describe the spiritual reality of soul and god, a "material" not visible in the purely physical level. In my experience, everything was light/energy/frequency and Mind, and to return to earth and gravity and weight and solidity was mortifying...but I understood I wasn't good enough for that world at my stage then. Still, I do appreciate acts of kindness (soul) and generosity and beauty found on earth. Such things reflect the governing principle.

I appreciate so much your interest in unseen reality. Don't listen to nay sayers. The people here have tons of soul and it doesn't matter what their brains recognize. If they don't know they're operating at soul level, it's unimportant. In fact, if I didn't see the underlying message of christianity, I'd flush it, too.

I feel his insights speak to so many of us. And I do respond in that way when people ask for proof.

What you described I see as similar to what the Buddha talked about. A spiritual evolution leading to another plane.

Like drugs, or too much sugar.

To be sure, 2) helping others is probably good. But anyone can do that, without religion, per se.

also feels good. But it leads to error.

And technology. Which have been fantastically successful.

Or "fruitful," as the Bible itself might say.

In contrast, 1) religious promises of physical miracles, "all" we ask for (John 14.13), were false, delusions.

And 2) the "higher" "sprits" religion offered next? Often seem to be "false spirits. "

The feeling that God speaks to you, being possibly the spirit of ... Vanity.

And self awareness is necessary as to the limitations of both.

By:

1) Peer review.

And:

2) When logical inquiries imply things that would be visible in the material world, we can check our logic against what we see with our eyes and scientific instruments.

Many problems in self awareness are also thereby corrected.

If you choose to view “god” and “everything” as synonymous, that is fine. The universe is awesome!

It is the claims of divine sentience and souls and other planes of existence that are bullshit.

They need to believe in the metaphysical out of fear of their impending expiration date. Each of us only get so many trips around the sun. The most mature approach is to deal with that reality rather than wrapping your delusions up with a bow regardless of how poetic it is.

But some prefer to substitute MAN for God, and claim some sort of victory over the darkness of what they frame as ignorance.

It amuses me to think you are using your meat-based brain to, with no evidence whatsoever, suggest/claim that human intelligence is too limited to grok the supernatural (that you claim, with your meat-brain exists).

You claim insight/knowledge into a thing that is just too darn complex or mysterious for us primitive ape-men to figure out.

How curious.

With no evidence, no justification, no facts, no nothing.

You can prove NOTHING about your faith, yet you are arrogant enough to declare humans too feeble to discover the truth directly.

Say you don't know, but you have faith if you must, but when you claim you have faith and it's beyond humanity's ability to discover, you're using fighting words.


Pretend or believe whatever you want, but you aren't the arbiter of anyone else's limitations.

"True intellectual maturity is recognizing the limitations of human intelligence."

You do not get to define any such limitations. Our intelligence literally may not be limited, even by physical form, given our ability to create technology that does so much more than we can. We can't see ionizing radiation. People died from it before we figured it out. It is not a thing we can directly perceive (granted it is a physical property of the universe regardless) yet we conceive of ways to observe, identify, and harness it. Still can't see it with our eyeballs directly, and it doesn't matter. Our intelligence can master it quite handily.

You have no grounds to make that claim, let alone suggest there IS a limit. The only known 'limit' on human intelligence is what we have discovered so far.

And what we have discovered so far, already smaller than the current aggregate human intelligence prior to my typing that sentence. In fact, it grew in the time it took you to READ that sentence.

"Faith, of course, is the seeing."

Says you. I 'see' things with my human intellect all the time, that no human eye has ever seen. It's not even my job, or my field, I build sensors and systems for information gathering for fun.

"Wherever you turn, there is the face of God."
Meaningless platitude. If your god exists, either it will eventually be directly detected by our intellect by way of our technology, or the tool-marks of a god upon a universe that could not exist without it, will be detected. You could maybe avoid the former, but you cannot avoid the latter. Cosmology has been doing it for a long time now. If you are right, at the very least physicists/astronomers/cosmologists will prove the existence of things that simply could not exist without a supernatural creator. (Assuming our species survives long enough)

A supernatural creator might be able to hide, but if it made 'everything you turn to', it cannot hide that 'everything' WAS MADE.

But then, you reverted to the simplistic view that equates atheism with some sort of truth.

Atheism makes no truth claims. It is simply the absence of belief in the existence of any gods. But you know that.

Anyway if it makes you feel better about yourself by putting down every atheist on this forum every time they post, you’re welcome.

As to your last claim, anyone reading here can see the constant series of posts from atheists about theist being delusional, or divorced from reality. So your projection is noted.

Bullshit comes in many forms, and bamboozles many people without assuming 'delusional, or divorced from reality'.

This is a political site. Remember? Politics are rife with bullshit without delusion or divorce from reality.
You should apologize to that poster for accusing them of projection. At the least, it's a broad brush attack.

Those words would then at least be relevant to your attack.

At least you have shifted to strawman fallacies instead of your usual tu quoque whataboutisms.

It makes it far easier to win. As long as one has no reservation about employing duplicitous behavior it works reasonably well and the imaginary fanclub never seems to notice the intellectual bankruptcy of obvious fallacies.

Faith, by definition, is the belief in things without proof. But we are now told the "proof" is the faith itself, which is obviously a fallacy. By definition, delusion is believing in something that is false. So without realizing it, he has created a logical proof of his delusion, but we must not use that word because of well, reasons.

Believers like guillaumeb wield that like the weapon it is.

And you misquoted to make it seem as if both lines were mine.

Somewhat sloppy.

You whine and moan about people misinterpreting you, yet you never ever clarify and explain what it is you meant.

Sloppy indeed.

That is, at best, sloppy work.

You didn't use the excerpt tags.

You used them as your own.

Everyone sees your pathetic game for what it is.

If you didn't intend to repeat them as your own words, then go back and edit the post accordingly. Use one of the formatting options I mentioned above.

Quit acting so spiteful and nasty. Try acting like Jesus would want you to. Love your enemies. Why do you do the opposite of what he said, when you claim to admire him?

Are those YOUR words or not?

If they are not, then put quotes around them.

Otherwise you are repeating them as your own.

Knock it the fuck off already.

Few seem inclined to agree with it.

Are those your words or not?

Funny how you won't answer that simple yes/no question. Your anger and hatred are so great, you can't even admit a simple formatting mistake.

As I observed, few are inclined to accept it.

Your words or not?

Your words or not?

You still haven't answered.

Are those your words or not?

Still waiting for an answer.

STILL waiting.

You still haven't responded.

Why won't you simply admit your mistake and apologize to me? I'll forgive you, just like Jesus would want me to.

Ball's in your court. Show me how you think Jesus wants you to act.

Still waiting.

Your words or not?

Still waiting.

Feel free to admit you made a simple mistake. You'll find I'm very forgiving if you simply try. How would Jesus want you to respond?

You are writing the narrative, g. You are revealing the kind of person you are.

I still have faith that someday you will take responsibility for your error and apologize.

Your words or not?

Your words or not? Still waiting for you to answer.

You build the narrative yourself, g. I simply point it out.

Step up and show what Jesus would want you to do.

A simple admission of error and an apology is all it takes, g. I'll never kick this again.

Why won't you do that?

It's so revealing that you won't address this.

STILL waiting.

I'll keep kicking this thread, exposing the kind of person you are, for as long as necessary.

You could admit error, apologize, and end it though.

Your call.

It's nice when you build the narrative for me.

Be honest.

Admit those aren't your words.

Still waiting.

You could end this so easily. All you have to do is admit error and apologize. Why is that so difficult? Isn't that what Jesus would want you to do?

Why am I not surprised?

It's almost like he isn't here to engage in good faith dialog, despite his insistence that he is.

it is self evident in this thread.

and eliminated this whole embarrassment.

But he's just like Trump in that he simply cannot back down and admit error. Which is strange for someone who CLAIMS to admire the so-called "Prince of Peace," the dude who allegedly said one should "turn the other cheek" and love one's enemies. Oh wait, that was metaphorical Jesus, right?

Still waiting to find out if those are your words or not.

Any day now.

Your words or not, guillaumeb? Why won't you answer?

Words that haunt you, apparently. If only you would just be honest, you could be rid of them.

Your words or not?

One simple correction and an apology could end this. Why won't you admit error and apologize?

Still waiting.

Still waiting.

Your words or not?

Your words or not?

Why won't you admit your error and apologize? It would be so easy.

Your words or not?

Still waiting.

Your words or not, guillaumeb? Telling the truth is a good thing.

Your words or not?

You build your own narrative, g, by refusing to admit a simple mistake and apologize to those you attacked for pointing it out.

Do the right thing. Admit error and apologize.

Or don't, and let your personal narrative get worse and worse.

Your choice.

Are those your words or not?

Your words or not?

Why can't you just say whether those are your words or not?

Doesn't it get more humiliating the longer you drag this out?

You've written the narrative for yourself, g.

Admit error and apologize if you want to change it.

Your words or not, g? Just a simple answer and an apology is all I ask.

Still waiting, g. The narrative for you keeps looking worse and worse.

Still waiting.

STILL waiting.

Still waiting for you to do the decent thing.

Still waiting.

STILL waiting. When will you simply apologize? Jesus would want you to do that, wouldn't he?

Still waiting for you to do the right thing.

From hell's heart he stabs at me!

Those are not your words. You should do the right thing, be honest, and apologize.

It is very telling that you will not.

Your narrative is thus written.

You claim the words of others as your own. And you can't even be decent enough to own up to it and apologize.

Just apologize and retract, g. Very simple. And I'll stop pointing out your rotten behavior.

I am still waiting for you to do what Jesus would want you to do.

Apologize for claiming the words of someone else as your own.

It's one of your holiest days soon. Perhaps that might make you pause and consider. Have you been the best person you can? Would Jesus be proud of your behavior?

A simple apology and I'll never mention this again.

Do the right thing, guillaumeb.

It's too bad the spirit of Christmas couldn't lead you to an apology for stealing the words of others.

More evidence your god doesn't exist, I guess.

New year would be a great time to make amends, g.

Apologize for misrepresenting someone else's words as your own.

Show everyone how your religion helps make you a better person.

Apologize for claiming someone else's words as you own, and then your narrative can be written more favorably for you.

Your steadfast silence has written the current one that you dislike so much.

Claiming the words of someone else as your own is what defines your narrative, g.

Apologizing would really help put that narrative back on a positive path.

But you steadfastly refuse to admit error.

Still waiting for you to apologize for stealing the words of others.

Carry on.

He uses the words of someone else as his own, and refuses to acknowledge it. I figure this is a great thread to keep kicked as a warning to others who might try to interact with him.

Were those your words or not, g? When will you simply admit your error and apologize? Or are you too perfect?

The "narrative" is established fact now. You steal the words of others as your own, and you see absolutely no problem with it.

When will you apologize for stealing the words of someone else?

stole somebody else's words.

Meanwhile, what's a little plagiarism when you're fighting the good fight against criticism of religion? Lyin' for the Lord has a very long and notable history.

Still waiting for you to admit you stole the words of someone else.

This thread remains kicked for people to be reminded of your behavior, until you retract and apologize.

I haven't forgotten, no matter how much you'd like to hope this shameful behavior of yours drops off the radar.

you can see faces and animals in the clouds and patterns in the stars.

Funny thing about seein God everywhere, the Universe looks the same not seeing any God anywhere.

But no amount of wishing it is an alligator is going to make it an alligator.

I'm not eating that one, either.