I am of the opinion that when religion stands in the way of scientific progress, then religion must step back and yield.

YMMV, however.

The greater good of ALL humanity is served by science. It is not served by the wishes of one religion. However, there must be other places we can build this telescope.

The reason this question is so difficult for me is this, of course, brings up the question about the Native American lands and things like oil exploration and fracking. When we first started to exploit the Native American lands for oil and other mineral resources we didn't really know we were destroying the climate.

That means, if I kept consistent in my opinion I'd probably have been one of those people saying that we needed to ignore the Native American traditions in favor of progress. It's easy to say we should honor the Native American traditions and burial grounds now that we know what harm we do to the environment.

In reading the article it seems we would be encroaching on burial lands and lands where endangered species live. Just as with the Native Americans the US Government has not kept promises and has acted in malicious ways.

I'm up in the air on this and would love to hear other thoughts. I'm leaning toward siding with the Hawaiians. Surely we can find another place or way to do this research.

Not sure whether that’s congruent with their beliefs, but it’s interesting.

Either way... my understanding is that even most native Hawaiians support TMT anyway. I’ve seen lots of lies trying to con the gullible (e.g., the telescope will be nuclear powered and contaminate the huge aquifer under the mountain that supplies the whole island) but they don’t get much traction.

By aggregating the ethnic groups and not showing the individual groups’ margin of error, and then citing the stat as if it was a good sample size, thus is misleading on the part of the pro tmt people.

Here is the link to the study.
https://www.scribd.com/document/374711098/The-Hawaii-Poll-March-2018-TMT

My information comes from family in the area.

But the study you're referring to is hardly "misleading". If it's true that the native component was only 78 individuals, that just means that the MOE is in the 10-11 percent range. The study in the link you provided reported 72% support... so it might be as low as 60%. That still fits the conclusion that most native Hawaiians support the TMT.

Then it's also worth noting that they make up about 10% of the population of the state... and everyone else overwhelmingly supports the project. The real "misleading" has come from opponents of the project with blatant fearmongering as I posted above.

Here are a couple of others from a quick search.

https://bigislandnow.com/2016/07/28/letter-majority-of-native-hawaiians-support-tmt/

https://www.universetoday.com/130147/new-poll-shows-2-1-margin-support-hawaiians-thirty-meter-telescope/

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/07/23/tmt-supporters-say-they-are-silent-majority/

I am here in Hawai’i.

The Kia’i are on the mauna negotiating. This is a statewide movement and should not be diminished and looked down on with this kind of superior colonial perspective.
If so, there is no way this is no way forward.

People in the thousands marched in Waikiki. There are road blocks popping up. Hawaiian flags are flying upside down statewide.


There is no way support for tmt under UH administration is 78% among Hawaiians. It is closer to 20%.

Here are some direct links for you as well.
https://oiwi.tv/
https://kamamaluula.com/





Do you know? #GetTheFacts
Mauna Kea Timeline:

1964 – Mauna Kea is identified by UH as an exceptional site for astronomical observation.

1968 – UH signs a 65-year general lease from BLNR for 13,321 acres of ceded lands at the summit. BLNR can terminate the lease if the lease terms are not met, including care for the mauna. A permit for “an observatory”--meaning only one telescope-- was granted but numerous telescopes are built by UH without permits, input from Native Hawaiians and public hearings. BLNR later issues “after the fact” permits--again, without public hearings.

1974 – Governor George Ariyoshi, concerned that the activities on the mountain pose a threat to its “priceless qualities,” directs DLNR to make a Master Plan for the mauna. DLNR and UH draft 10 different plans, but the speed of development on Mauna Kea makes some of them obsolete before they are completed.

1975 – The Audubon Society resists the installation of the 15-meter sub-millimeter antenna.

1995 – UH cleans up trash accumulating on the summit only after the Sierra Club files a complaint.

1998 – The State Auditor releases a scathing report documenting 30 years of mismanagement of Mauna Kea by both the BLNR and UH and reveals that, despite spending $50 million per year on telescope operations, no observatory paid more than $1 a year rent.

1999 – Despite the audit, they build two more telescopes.

2004 – Subpoenaed documents reveal that sewage, ethylene glycol, diesel fuel, and toxic mercury were spilled on the mauna.

2005 – A follow-up audit finds that UH’s management “still falls short.” A NASA environmental study concludes that 35 years of astronomy activity has caused “significant, substantial and adverse” harm.

2007 – Third Circuit Court revokes NASA’s permit for an observatory project because of the state’s lack of a comprehensive management plan for the mauna.

2010 – UH’s new Comprehensive Management Plan includes a “Decommissioning Plan” for removing observatories and restoring the site. To date, only one of the existing 13 observatories has started the process. A UH environmental study concludes that astronomy activities have caused “substantial and adverse” impacts to the mauna’s natural and cultural resources.

2011 – The Subaru Observatory spills 100 liters of orange coolant.

2013 – BLNR hears UH’s request for a new 65-year general lease, to expire in 2078. UH’s undergraduate governing body, representing 14,000 students, passes a resolution opposing a new lease.

2014 – Another follow-up audit finds UH failed to adopt a single rule to manage public activities on the mountain.

2015 – Governor David Ige temporarily stops construction on Mauna Kea after 300 mauna protectors peacefully block roads to the proposed TMT site and 31 are arrested. A petition with 53,000 signatures calling for a halt to the TMT and the arrests of protectors is delivered to Ige. UH’s President admits that “[UH] has not met all of [its] obligations to the mountain or the expectations of the community.”

2017 – Another audit finds that none of the 8 recommendations in the 2014 audit had been completely implemented. UH and DLNR have also failed and to adequately implement 32 of 54 management actions that concern Native Hawaiians.

(Original post by Heidi Hart)

So the other links I provided don't really exist?

It is closer to 20%

Oh please. Which you support by linking to two generic news sites with nothing backing up the claim... plus the fact that you live in the state?

Headlines. There is no other survey that shows support in that range. I already read and care our local media, thanks. The other link didn’t support your argument either though.

There’s incredible grace and profound power in the kupuna.
They have moved a lot of people here.

I agree with your first point.

Know that this could really hurt the Democratic Party in Hawaii

How is it going to hurt the DNC? Hillary won Hawaii by more than 2-1. There aren't enough people on the other side of the issue to make that large a difference...

... plus of course, where are they going to go politically? To the Republicans?

And I don’t enjoy the snarky way you communicate with me so much that I don’t feel obliged to explain the nuances and history here. You can educate yourself on the Hawaiian monarchy and the Republican Party. David Ige, not wholly fairly in my view, is being made the goat not by the kupuna but by the general population for this project moving ahead after the 2015 protests.

No, by voting with a reinstated Aloha Aina party or by staying home.

Bye now.

No, by voting with a reinstated Aloha Aina party

I guess if I ask something like "all twelve of them?" you'll think that's "snarky"... so I'll just say "that's not exactly a threat to the party". Or maybe I should at least remind you of the "Support Democrats" terms of service?

You can educate yourself on the Hawaiian monarchy

That's what I expected. The debate around TMT rarely ends up talking about a clash (as in the OP) between religion and science. It's just a vehicle for a tiny minority to air their discontent with even being part of the US. That's fine if it's a debate people want to have... but I wish they could just be honest about it.

There are already a dozen +/- observatories atop Mauna Kea (the single best spot in the world for such science to be performed). I'm unpersuaded by those who make up ridiculous claims against a better one replacing a couple of older ones. Especially when weighed against the benefits involved.

When the list of grievances include tiny things spilling 100 gallons of orange coolant or ridiculously false things like nuclear waste contaminating a giant aquifer... I have a tough time paying them much heed.

If this is the beginning of a separation from the US, which it very well may be, please remember how right you think you were today.

Aloha also means goodbye.

I apologize... but am I supposed to take that seriously? You're really saying Hawaii is going to separate from the US and that will put me in my place?

I guess someone who thinks that only 20% support TMT might think other pretty extreme things. They're having a tough enough time even getting recognized as a self-governing people (which should happen)... there's no chance of Hawaii separating from the US. We might agree that there was injustice in how the state entered the union in the first place, but there's no undoing it at this point.

Aloha also means goodbye.

Um... yeah. But if you keep saying it and never go away... will they believe you?

Oh... and help me out with that needed education on the Hawaiian monarchy. There was no monarchy over all of the islands until the westerners were involved (at which time the Big Island conquered the smaller ones). Surely you're not advocating going back to that are you?

There are issues of mistrust of the Gov. Legitimate nvironmental concerns and yes religious concerns, especially regarding burial grounds.

“Mauna Kea is also a conservation district with a number of fragile features: There are confirmed burial sites, it houses Hawaii’s only alpine lake, and it is home to endangered plants and animals who can only thrive at that altitude.

The mountain is also part of ceded land, once owned by the Hawaiian Kingdom, that is now held in a public land trust meant to benefit all Native Hawaiians ― on both sides of the debate.

Mauna Kea’s protectors are also concerned about how the project would impact a 35-acre watershed on the mountain and its aquifer, which supplies the island’s drinking water.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-native-hawaiians-protest-tmt-telescope_n_5d2f9120e4b004b6adaa8b0f

Native Hawaiians have a lot of reasons to distrust the U.S. government.

Hawaii’s path to statehood began with the illegal overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy, during which a group of American entrepreneurs and the U.S. military held the queen captive and took over the government.

Since then, many Native Hawaiians have been disproportionately displaced in and marginalized, and elements of their culture either erased (the language was banned for nearly 100 years) or turned into a marketing ploy (a tourism boom in the 1960s led to explosive development).

But a Native Hawaiian renaissance began in the ’70s when a group of native activists protested the U.S. military’s use of the island of Kahoolawe as a practice target for bombs. (The damage was so bad, restoration efforts are still ongoing and the island remains closed to the general public.)”

and why there is so much mistrust regarding this project. I understand why the OP originally posted as he did, but this situation goes beyond the push/pull of science and religion.

“Hawaii’s path to statehood began with the illegal overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy, during which a group of American entrepreneurs and the U.S. military held the queen captive and took over the government.

But a Native Hawaiian renaissance began in the ’70s when a group of native activists protested the U.S. military’s use of the island of Kahoolawe as a practice target for bombs. (The damage was so bad, restoration efforts are still ongoing and the island remains closed to the general public.)”

"In 1896, education through the Hawaiian language in both public and private schools was outlawed on the model of U.S. policy towards the use of American Indian languages in education. Teachers were told that speaking Hawaiian with children will result in termination of employment. Children were harshly punished for speaking Hawaiian in school. By 1984 the community of fluent speakers had dwindled to a few elders and a tiny geographically isolated population on the island of Ni‘ihau. Hawaiian language speaking children under the age of 18 numbered less than fifty. The demise of Hawaiian language was imminent."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_language

“Other groups began requesting subleases on the newly accessible mountaintop. By 1970, two 24 in (0.6 m) telescopes had been constructed by the United States Air Force and Lowell Observatory. In 1973, Canada and France agreed to build the 3.6 m CFHT on Mauna Kea.[11] However, local organizations started to raise concerns about the environmental impact of the observatory. This led the Department of Land and Natural Resources to prepare an initial management plan, drafted in 1977 and supplemented in 1980.

Telescopes found at the summit of Mauna Kea are funded by government agencies of various nations. The University of Hawaiʻi directly administers two telescopes. In total, there are twelve facilities housing thirteen telescopes[21] at or around the summit of Mauna Kea. It may also be the site of the Thirty Meter Telescope.
• Caltech Submillimeter Observatory (CSO): Caltech — closed 2015
• Canada–France–Hawaiʻi Telescope (CFHT): Canada, France, University of Hawaiʻi
• Gemini North Telescope: United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Chile, Australia, Argentina, Brazil
• NASA Infrared Telescope Facility (IRTF): NASA
• James Clerk Maxwell Telescope (JCMT): China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, United Kingdom, Canada
• Subaru Telescope: National Astronomical Observatory of Japan
• Sub-Millimeter Array (SMA): Taiwan, United States
• United Kingdom Infrared Telescope (UKIRT): Lockheed Martin Advanced Technology Center, University of Hawaiʻi, University of Arizona
• University of Hawaiʻi 88-inch (2.2 m) telescope (UH88): University of Hawaiʻi
• University of Hawaiʻi 36-inch (910 mm) telescope (Hoku Kea): University of Hawaii at Hilo
• One receiver of the Very Long Baseline Array (VLBA): United States
• W. M. Keck Observatory: California Association for Research in Astronomy”


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauna_Kea_Observatories

I was just bringing the religion tangent to this forum.

But to my mind, it's a good one

my threads going sideways.

I'm a haole -- and a Kama'aina

There was a very nasty fight here at DU a few years back, which I am currently too tired to recap. I wondered then, and do now, whether any of the people who felt so strongly about the Dakota Pipeline were so utterly contemptuous of Native rights when it came to the Hawaiians. I was appalled that this happened at DU. Hawai'ian land-rights, their ancestral grounds, their culture, their concerns for a very fragile ecology, and yes, their religious sensibilities -- all these were were as nothing if "science" could be cited as the reason for destruction.

Native Hawai'ians have been robbed of their land and birthright just as Native Americans have, but with one signifying difference: there is not even the fig-leaf of a treaty with the Great White Father in Washington that could be presented in a court of law.

To say I support them is putting it mildly.

What isn’t different is a culture was systematically robbed and in various ways this is still happening and will continue to happen if unabated. There’s plenty of genuine arguments against this destruction of culture, but hocus pocus isn’t one of them.

with these different perspectives of why Native Hawaiians don't want the telescope.

We had Protests today in the capital.. a main road was closed to traffic so they could demonstrate.

Mauna Kea march set for Sunday

snip//

LIHUE — The Kauai Police Department announced road closures in Lihue for Sunday to accommodate the largest planned community rally relating to Mauna Kea.

More than 1,000 participants are expected. People will gather at Vidinha Stadium before the march that begins at 12:30 p.m.

“Officers will be closing all roads along the march route from 12:30 p.m. to approximately 2 p.m.,” according to a county press release Wednesday.

snip//

“We’re hoping for a large turnout, we believe that a lot of people have strong feelings about this issue and want to have their voices heard,” she said. “This platform allows for people to do so in a peaceful manner in a way that aligns with the protectors on Mauna Kea through Kapu Aloha. It allows people the opportunity to express and have themselves heard and that’s really our goal. We’re hoping that a lot of people show up and that people come to learn from each other and to connect as a larger lahui (people).”

More.. https://www.thegardenisland.com/2019/07/25/hawaii-news/mauna-kea-march-set-for-sunday/

Aloha and Mahalo for directing me to this thread, Me!

And the article you read depends to a great extent on the person doing the writing.

One big complaint--largely from Hawai'ian sources--deals with money. They don't like that for these massive, expensive buildings, the University is charged a pittance and charges 10s of thousands of dollars. (largely paid for by grants, and the University's non-profit.) Money should go to native causes and to help the native population.

The complaint "we demand that the government respect our notions of what's sacred and accommodate our religion on what's public grounds" is always squirrelly. A lot of people who said no to a cross or Xian services are less likely to object if the religious services are non-majority/non-dominant and go downright supportive if they're "indigenous" beliefs that need an establishment of Congress to support them. The principle as a principle only matters for some people when it achieves the desire goal.

A lot of it is distrust. But sort of generalized. "No, this part of the government has nothing to do with me and never has, but I distrust it." Exerting power over something tends to reduce the level of distrust greatly, even if nothing else changes. Flattery helps. But really, it's back to money, because what's the good of your having power if what you control doesn't benefit *you*.

The environment concerns I don't tend to count very highly. Like "climate change," the telescope's not going to have that big an impact. But it's a politically prominent claim. Aquifers, too. If there were snail darters and tropical frogs in the news somebody would say, "You know, we haven't had a study that conclusively shows that there are no snail darters or tropical frogs in the area."

Yes, I'm cynical. On the other hand, this battle's been going on for a while. And the same battle was fought numerous times in the past, but notice that there are already clusters of telescopes there. Each of which was built after power, money, and sufficient lipservice was shown to the right activists, advocates, and politicians.

Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2019, 10:37 PM - Edit history (1)

With 80% going to maintaining the area and 20% to Hawaiians

This situation has been oversimplified somewhat. It isn't a matter of science v. religion so much as it is an issue of colonialism come home to roost. A hundred years of foreign rule, often unsympathetic to Native culture, has resulted in serious mistrust. The university can't expect exemption from that just because science is objective, dispassionate, for the greater good, blah, blah, blah. They're non-Natives wanting to develop on, effectively, stolen land. I totally get the opposition.

Being a fire-breathing champion of science and an ardent supporter of Native rights, I would like to see both parties win here. There's just a lot of shit to overcome.

telescopes already in the area, but I could be wrong. I hope that all of this works out to the good of all. If there aren't any telescopes there now, why all of a sudden is this spot so important? And by the way, the rationale that was cited (change the way we view the universe) is a little far fetched.

In total, there are twelve facilities housing thirteen telescopes[21] at or around the summit of Mauna Kea.

on Mauna Kea, but this will be the most advanced ever made. A real boon to science.

at Native Hawaiian Grass Skirt Hula dancers.

Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2019, 11:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Correction after watching some of the video: those are Tahitian costumes. The dance, I just couldn't say what that was exactly

The Hawaiians immigrated to Tahiti; that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Went the other way but hey, here we are.

who utterly oppose stem cell research. But happily avail themselves of the benefits of that research.

Okay, I understand this is a bit different, but as a modern person who has a son doing astronomy, I have very little patience with this sort of ignorant superstition.

so your bias for your son causes you to label people's belief's ignorant and btw, ignore the disrespect & callousness that has been shown to such belief's over the centuries?

Not magical thinking.

You're accusing me of something I am not saying.

Nice try at trolling.

and you accuse me of trolling. I don't believe serious astronomers would do so as the sky is full of mystery and who knows what.

then criticism of that belief must have the same freedom.

They are defending

Freedom of religion must include the freedom to disparage it. No idea should be exempt from criticism in a free society.

but criticism doesn't/shouldn't allow for destruction simply because of religion which by the way, isn't the only basis for the protests.

Your issue was with the poster who dared to call religion "ignorant" as if religion itself is somehow entitled to respect. You may think it does. I do not agree.

and, just because it's not your thing is no reason to disparage, walk on by. The Hawaiian beliefs are precious to them and have been disrespected by this country ever since they stomped all over the Native Hawaiian culture and took over their islands, just like has been done with Native Americans. I don't participate in either but think both their beliefs should be honored. And because someone's son is an astronomer isn't reason enough to show disdain. Further, there are already 12 telescopes there but this is the bigger, better one that they want to plunk on top of the burial ground until there is an even bigger, better one they want to put there too.

As far as you and I agreeing...I don't think so.

So it actually is my thing. I also did agree with you on the significant cultural issues they face and I am certainly against not only this one, but many other efforts to irredeemably change Hawaii for the worse. So if you are looking to fight on that subject you really are barking up the wrong tree.

There’s plenty of reasons to disparage religion, not the least of which are the finger wavers who say others shouldn’t.

I thought that was clear. But some put the cultural solely down to religious and this defame it on that basis and I say let them decide for themselves.

And nobody is putting this down as solely religious. It’s more of an effort to keep the discussion relevant to the Religion group, not any claim that other issues don’t have their own merit.

Seriously, I didn't claim "issues don’t have their own merit"...that was what I objecting to regarding the initial idea that because some protests about the telescope were based on Hawaiian religious beliefs that had less merit than the science being proffered.

Something that is meaningful to one is not necessarily meaningful to another. For all the sacred value the site might have for Hawaiians, this is balanced by the 'sacred' value the astronomical data that site can obtain that cannot be obtained elsewhere on the earth.

That said, we as a society and particularly as a government, have abused the everloving fuck out of indigenous populations everywhere.

Therefore, while 'sacred' is uninteresting to me, I do think 'we' should go out of our way to ensure the project 'worth it' via some sort of concession and is overwhelmingly supported by the indigenous population. Particularly because of the watershed and cultural significance. If that means an open checkbook and 'what will it take', fine. That data is worth billions in concessions to the locals for environmental mitigation, and cultural concerns.

Development of those unspoiled areas is seen as a bad thing for their cultural identity even though the people there might otherwise benefit in other ways by the development.

There’s plenty of good rational reasons to oppose development in Hawaii. Hocus pocus isn’t one of them.