When he created him...... Which means by definition he created him for that purpose.....


Gah.... Don't get me started lol it's all such crazy bs lol

Iron Age mythology should have no place in a 21st century world.

I think Mary and Joseph were having out-of-wedlock sex, she got pregnant, she didn't want to be stoned to death obviously so they made up a story and took off..... They had to maintain that story for their entire lives..... So when the baby was born he was raised believing he was the son of a deity.... And he behaved that way..... Until somebody decided they had enough....

It's an angry, jealous and petty god who kills indiscriminately and destroys its own creations.

The New Testament version isn't much better. Consider that he condemns his own "son" to be tortured and executed, (thanks, Dad). Strangely, the Triune God has a father, son and holy ghost as its components so its behavior is sadistic and masochistic at the same time!

By the way, if this god is all-powerful, why couldn't it just forgive humans for sinning? Why couldn't the sin simply be eliminated? That would be real power. The convoluted process of Jesus' life and seeking forgiveness is just far too complicated and intricate with too many interlocutors. If this god is omnipotent, why did it create humans in the first place?

It's all just made up silliness.

Instead of smiting your ass with extreme prejudice, he waits for you to die and then tortures for you eternity.

The New Testament god waits for you to die, then passes the eternal torturing off to a third party. This all-powerful god can't even do the dirty work itself. How cowardly. Meanwhile, up in heaven, this god basks in the eternal worshipping of itself. (By the way. who does that remind you of?)

And what of the "good" that its followers have done in this god's name? Many so-called holy wars with millions of deaths throughout history. The Inquisition. Attacks against abortion doctors, (remember that abortion has been legal in the U.S. since the 1970s). Child sexual abuse by the anointed representatives of this god. The list of atrocities is endless.

An omnipotent, omniscient god who was full of love and compassion would never allow the millions of acts of barbarism in its name.

It's all a sham.

"Who'll keep loving you when you been runnin' around?
God will, but I won't... that's the difference between God and me."

Love this song.

Pride was the issue.

these events?

Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2019, 09:09 PM - Edit history (1)

...literally?

in either the Jewish or Christian holy books.
Mostly it is Milton.

...claim they know, literally.

...and can his books be canon, if written after the council of Nicea?


Hmmmm...

Versus Yahweh who didn't want his creation to learn.

Hmm, tough call there. Perhaps your story means something other than what you've been indoctrinated to think it means.

...

What follows is simply your narrative, with all of your preconceptions and hostility toward faith.

an angel loses its wings.

Why don't you defend your position instead of attacking me?

And that he literally existed?

If not, please state your actual position.

And the character of Lucifer is a metaphor for pride leading to being apart from the Creator.

My view.

Who created him?

Who created in him the ability to feel pride?

Was it all a set up?

This particular story is fascinating. A bunch of the angels hated the rule of The Creator™ so much that they tried to stage a coup in Heaven. What did they think The Creator™ was doing wrong, that they thought they could do better? Granted, The Creator™ created humans such that none can avoid sin, and no one can reasonably argue that a 100% failure rate isn't a bad design. Maybe Lucifer and the rest of the rebels *could* have done a better job of it than The Creator™ did.

My view.

Usually the last small light visible in the sky in the morning, or the first at night.

Interestingly? Long after the Old Testament (?) seemed to condemn such a "star" as often low or fallen, Jesus calls himself this day star.

Jesus there being subtly identified with Lucifer/venus . Probably because of the many changes/betrayals he and Christianity made relative to Judaism, the Old Testament god.

Among those changes? Jesus is regarded as more human and forgiving than the old inflexible God.

Another reading.

Plus we both know that Christianity absorbed many things from the religions that it replaced.

... separated from Judaism, and it's Old Testament God, Jahweh. In spite of constant protestations of total faith and loyalty.

This may be an important, shocking subtext in the New Testament itself: Jesus and Christianity actually betraying or departing from the God they claimed to faithfully follow.

Some suggest that even that betrayal was a good thing; Jesus was more gentle or forgiving, than the old God.

Still? It suggests that religions often cover up huge changes in allegedly fixed, eternal beliefs. Leading us to wonder if any religion - even the modern deist religion of the Founders, and their "Creator" - is as stable or certain or useful or sacred, as some imply.

Thank you for you response.

Muslims believe the same of Muhammed.

So neither is seen by believers as betraying anything.

Typical of Christian apologetics. Ignore the difficult questions asked, and answer one you prefer instead.

Why DID a band of angels revolt? What did they see that they felt was wrong? Were they given a hearing for their grievances? "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." -- JFK

Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2019, 07:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Because they could. It is called free will, and it is essential to growth.

I won't belabor it in this thread, just curious... Do you ascribe foreknowledge to the god you believe in?

But even with foreknowledge, free will is either present or it is not.

But I don't.

"Having free will" doesn't answer the question, and I think you know that. I hope.

WHY did they revolt against your perfect, loving creator? What could they possibly have been upset about?

So, obviously, the ones who did so didn't do it just "because they could". Furthermore, they had to know their odds of winning were very slim indeed. They were going up against The Creator™ after all. Something very serious must have motivated them.

So your point reinforces my own. And free will means that we are free to make inappropriate and/or harmful choices.

100% failure rate is just an example of why I find real humour in your comment. There will be a few who see through a glass darkly and will miss the truth in your words.

I can only offer my own personal thoughts/opinion, but perhaps Lucifer and the other angels were motivated not because they thought The Creator was doing something wrong (and they thought they could do a better, job) but rather the motivation was jealousy?

In other words, they wanted the power/glory associated with The Creator - so they rebelled to claim the power/glory for themselves.

Naturally this is just speculation on my part - I greatly appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you!

Wishing you well and peace

Tim

Perhaps the pride leads to the jealousy?

Adam was human in body, but was he human in mind?

The defining trait of a human is the ability to think. In humans, the ability to think has reached an exceptional height that distinguishes them from all other animals.

The very concept that we should explore and judge and weigh each other and the world in terms of thinking, that is the basis of zoroastrian philosophy, which eventually inspired greek philosophy, which eventually (after lots of steps and lucky historical coincidences) lead to the scientific method and where we are today.



Look at what us humans have built and tremble in awe, for we are just one more link in a chain that began millennia ago.

Adam could not have built anything. He wasted his days and blindly accepted what he was told.

But not perfect.

And a critical part of intelligence, in my view, is realizing one's limits.

My personal definition of intelligence is the ability to go insane.
A person can go insane. A snail can not.

What's interesting is, a few years ago, scientists made an AI with a weird configuration of thinking to see how it would develop. The AI effectively became schizophrenic.

And relatively high levels of intelligence.

One might also say that language is critical.

First off, I guess, creation would actually look like an engineered, created system. Not a natural product of a natural universe that didn't require an actual creator to get to its current state.

Would this system decay, like all systems do?

Not being omnipotent and omniscient, it is difficult for me to speculate on what my motives would still be. One can only assume it is possible that I might choose either, or a combination, or multiple universes with different sets of rules.

The only thing I don't think I would do, is create a universe that deceptively appears to not have been created at all.

that you cannot see them.

Yes, I would expect to see such 'marks' and I assume you're using this because I've mentioned it before, but another form of 'tool mark' I would expect to see is just a flat out impossibility of something 'naturally' reaching a particular state.

It's a condition that science IS looking for (Cosmology) and isn't finding.

Not the same as 'we don't know how this happened', but actually finding something that CAN NOT have happened any other way.

implies an equivalence with the creation and the Creator.

If that's enough to be equivalent with a creator, so be it.

Interesting.

And we understand that.

Sheesh. Support your argument instead of throwing around your bullshit "framing" accusation.

But I know you won't. Because you can't.