Religion
Related: About this forumWould Finding Alien Life Change Religious Philosophies?
The discovery of extraterrestrial beings be they slimy microbes or little green men would dramatically change the way we humans view our place in the universe. But would it shatter religion? Well, that depends on what you believe.
In his book "Religions and Extraterrestrial Life" (Springer 2014), David Weintraub, an astronomer at Vanderbilt University, takes a close look at how different faiths would handle the revelation that we're not alone. Some of his findings might surprise you.
Public polls have shown that a large share of the population believes aliens are out there. In one survey released last year by the company Survata, 37 percent of the 5,886 Americans who were polled said they believed in the existence of extraterrestrial life, while 21 percent said they didn't believe and 42 percent were unsure. Responses varied by religion: 55 percent of atheists said they believed in extraterrestrials, as did 44 percent of Muslims, 37 percent of Jews, 36 percent of Hindus and 32 percent of Christians.
The notion of extraterrestrial life was for the most part irrelevant to religions that began thousands of years ago.
"Ideas about extraterrestrial life if they're part of the sacred writings they're buried a little bit deeper," Weintraub told Live Science. "They're not obvious. They're layered below the top. In Jewish scripture, there's pretty much nothing there. You really have to over-interpret to find anything that you can marginally say might have anything to do with extraterrestrial life."
Full article:
https://www.livescience.com/48208-religion-extraterrestrial-life.html
trev
(1,480 posts)Sure, if you think the appellation only applies to microbes. But the Hebrews didn't even know those existed.
And such a view doesn't take into account what the OT actually says. Who were the Nephilim? Who were the Watchers? Who were the two "angels" who visited Lot? What did Ezekiel see? What was the "chariot" that carried Elijah into heaven on a flame of fire?
The ancient Hebrews definitely believed in alien beings. Might as well call them extraterrestrials--or, perhaps (in accordance with John Keel), ultraterrestrials.
Voltaire2
(14,632 posts)So you can answer my questions, then.
Thanks!
Voltaire2
(14,632 posts)Here's my question: how come these aliens haven't shown up for the last 2000 years or so?
How do you know they haven't?
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)We are constantly reminded by another DUer that an unfalsifiable claim is no less valid than anyone who calls bullshit. Were it not for the inconvenience of reason, this might be true.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. --Carl Sagan
trev
(1,480 posts)Sagan believed in extraterrestrial life. He was a founder of SETI. He designed the "golden record" for Voyager 1. He wrote a novel and an undergraduate paper on the subject of alien contact with human beings. He did not totally dismiss the idea that extraterrestrials might have visited the Earth at some point, he just couldn't say it definitely had happened.
I haven't said it definitely happened, either. I simply asked the other poster how they knew for an absolute fact that it hadn't.
My ideas are not unfalsifiable. They are hypothetical. That is the starting point of the scientific method. Simply dismissing an idea out of hand by "calling bullshit" is not science.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)There's no difference in asking someone else to disprove unicorns, leprechauns, or the abominable snowman. It's simply a cheap rhetorical trick designed to shift the burden of proof for those making incredible claims onto their skeptics. Regardless of what Sagan believed or didn't, he had a very firm grip on avoiding that fallacy. YMMV.
trev
(1,480 posts)There is nothing but anecdotal evidence for leprechauns, etc. There are, however, things that exist on the Earth which no scientist has ever been able to explain. Give a good explanation for these, and the hypothesis of ET visitation grows weaker. No one's done that yet.
Sagan was probably the most outspoken opponent of Immanuel Velikovsky's hypothesis of Venus. In his TV series Cosmos (Episode 4), he lays out in detail his arguments against him. But at the end of that segment, he says that the problem with Velikovsky is not that he was wrong. The problem was that scientists dismissed him out of hand, without even looking at the evidence.
I look at evidence. And I'm not afraid to question the current paradigm.
As you say, YMMV.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)See how that works.
trev
(1,480 posts)But my admittedly small knowledge of leprechauns leads me to believe that--should they exist--they probably couldn't have done these things. The facts don't fit. No theory equals false hypothesis. On to other possibilities.
And just to save time, let's say they weren't done by Bigfoot, elves or the Loch Ness monster, either.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Argument ad ignorantiam isnt a hypothesis or theory, at least as far as how science defines those terms. Its just a fallacy. Referring to them as such is pseudoscience, which is really no different than when a religionist fills in the blanks of what no scientist has ever been able to explain with god.
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Christopher Hitchens
trev
(1,480 posts)a pejorative term from the 1950's meant to disparage those who encountered things they couldn't explain, in an effort to mockingly discredit them. No alternative explanation offered by those mockers, either.
In fact, in 20 years of studying the history of UFOs, I've never seen a single case where an ET is described as green.
Should they exist, I don't think they would be that color. Just for the record, of course.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Which is where it belongs until those who make extraordinary claims actually produce extraordinary evidence.
trev
(1,480 posts)I've never claimed it definitely happened. I said I'm keeping my mind open and studying the evidence.
Sagan didn't think there was a "face" on Mars. But he wanted the Viking spacecraft to fly over it, just to make sure.
Nothing wrong with exploring possibilities. It's how great scientific discoveries are made.
Did I mention I was a huge fan of Sagan?
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Or any other work of complete nonsense anyone cares to offer?
The problem is the sheer volume of complete hoaxes out there manufactured by fanatics, lunatics, and con artists, and yes theres definitely something wrong with that. Rather than complaining about those who dismiss what you think passes for evidence, the time might be better spent complaining about those actually producing all the nonsense. Most people arent so inclined to go indefinitely looking for a needle in a pile of bullshit. At some point you realize theres no needle.
trev
(1,480 posts)I don't buy into it--and I don't promote it. Which fool have I quoted to you?
The outrageous stuff can be fun, because I like to see how people think. And there are some real goodies out there. LOL I had to confront one once a a party held by MUFON. Fortunately, the host was able to talk him down. He had really thrown me for a loop with his fanaticism.
I suppose you think I'm that way, too, but I'm not.
My initial reply to the OP was meant to disagree with the flat-out statement that there are no references to ETs in the Bible. The ancient Hebrews had no concept of alien life as we think of it, so they couched their encounters in terms they could understand. How do we know for a fact that what they called an "angel" was not actually an extraterrestrial? The writers made a point of distinguishing the being from a human. Of course, they might have just made the whole thing up. But they're not the only ones who described stuff like that; these stories are worldwide. What do they mean? I don't know, which is why I don't simply brush them off as so much flotsam on the stream of history.
Edison tried 10,000 times to create the lightbulb. Guess it's a good thing he kept pursuing that needle, eh? LOL
Meanwhile, I'm not complaining. I'm carrying on a conversation. If you don't want to talk, that's fine. I enjoy the subject, but I'll leave you alone if you don't.
Caveat: I would appreciate it if you would quit inferring that I'm a religionist. I'm a science-trained atheist, I don't hold fanatical beliefs, and I'm open to any line of argument you'd like to pursue.
Even leprechauns.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Im saying your assertions follow the exact same fallacies and flawed reasoning religionists use. You are still doing it with your last message even after being called on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
trev
(1,480 posts)that I am not insisting my ideas are true. I'm not proselytizing, I'm engaged in a discussion.
I think we're finished here.
Thanks for the chat.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)Even when those ideas are unfalsifiable.
Discussion ceases to be discussion when one side insists on employing fallacies.
muriel_volestrangler
(102,372 posts)the Nephilim
the Watchers
the two "angels" who visited Lot
What Ezekiel saw
the "chariot" that carried Elijah into heaven on a flame of fire
and yet you think you have a 'hypothesis' about them. No, believing one book has more than just myths in it is not "the starting point of the scientific method".
You claim "the ancient Hebrews definitely believed in alien beings. Might as well call them extraterrestrials--or, perhaps (in accordance with John Keel), ultraterrestrials. " But that's plainly wrong. There's nothing "definite" about it. They had a book with stories about fantastical beings in. That doesn't mean they generally believed those bits were true. And there's nothing in the book to say they were 'alien', ie extraterrestrial, which is the subject of this thread.
trev
(1,480 posts)that stories of this sort appear in cultures all over the world. Not just "one book." And books aren't the only evidence I'm looking at. I was simply staying within the topic, responding to a line taken directly from the text. If this was the only thing I have, I would've stayed silent. Which would have made some of you very happy. LOL
Ok, then. I'll take back "definitely" and replace it with "apparently" (which is more accurate, so thanks). "Alien" was a poor choice, since I actually meant "otherworldly." Or maybe just "non-human." Better?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Inquiring minds want to know.
Had to look that up. I'm not a Harry Potter fan.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)trev
(1,480 posts)he's good with a broom, right?
Maybe he could help me out around the house....
Cartaphelius
(868 posts)with the likelyhood of never changing our minds. So. No!
Too many will praying to their new god, yet again.
Moostache
(10,120 posts)To really internalize any religious creed - be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew or anything else - requires one divest from the use of the scientific method and rational thought. It requires emotion, devotion and constant reinforcement.
Extraterrestrial life would be no different than any other scientific evidence - they would claim it was "fake" or "the work of the devil" or anything else ... hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Nothing penetrates their shell NOW. Additional evidence would be shunned, 100% certain of that.
trev
(1,480 posts)Buddha taught a belief in the supernatural was irrelevant. The current Dalai Lama is an avid fan of science.
Mahayanists? Okay, I'll grant you them. But not the Theravedists.
And no, I'm not a Buddhist.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)What Buddhists actually believe and what Buddhists actually do does matter.
Incidentally, they believe some seriously whacky things (just like theists) and do whacky things (just like theists). They aren't an exception to the rule so much as they are certifiable proof there is more to religion than a bearded old man in the sky.
trev
(1,480 posts)Remember, we're not talking Buddhists in general; this is strictly about Theravada.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Or are you thinking something more mundane? Like reincarnation or enlightenment?
trev
(1,480 posts)But as I understand it, the Muslims started it.
And of course, no atheist, agnostic or scientist has ever contributed to war....
Response to trev (Reply #22)
Act_of_Reparation This message was self-deleted by its author.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Look, the point is this: religions are more than the contents of their scripture or the words of their most visible leaders. The Dalai Lama, while certainly a popular fellow, is not an accurate sampling of the world's fourth-largest religion. There are 520 million Buddhists on this planet, and not all of them have a subscription to Scientific American.
But more to the point, for all the talk of open-mindedness and acceptance, Buddhists still must make fundamental assumptions about the nature of reality in order to be Buddhists, and some of these assumptions are highly suspect or flat-out demonstrably wrong. The Dalai Lama, to continue harping on him as an example, probably isn't a huge fan of the neuroscientific evidence for materialism. Because if there's no soul, there's no reincarnation. If there's no reincarnation, there's probably no Buddhism, and definitely no Dalai Lama.
It's no different for the Evangelical Christians. They don't deny science. They just deny the science that directly contradicts their religious beliefs. They just do a lot more of it because their religion makes more assumptions about reality than Buddhism does.
trev
(1,480 posts)But I'm a student of consciousness, and I've done a lot of investigation into the subject.
The University of Virginia has an annex devoted to the study of consciousness. One of the things they investigate is reincarnation. They currently have 2000 documented cases, collected over 50 years, that might be evidence of it--or at least, of some form of consciousness persisting after death. This is not in their Religion Department; it's part of their medical curriculum.
Medical science is also changing its definition of when death actually occurs, since neuronal activity in test animals can be restored long after brain death.
None of this means that reincarnation is a real thing, but it does show that there may be something going on. I don't believe in the religious versions of reincarnation myself (I'm a science-trained atheist), but I find some of these examples to be intriguing.
Quantum mechanics suggests that subatomic particles may have some form of consciousness. This is what caused Einstein to reject the theory out of hand; he never accepted it. Yet today we are building quantum computers. QM is established science. We still don't know what it might mean that "particles are conscious," but the experimental results are thought-provoking. If--and that's still a big if--it turns out that this is the case, it would be only a short step to positing a continuance of consciousness after physical death. This would fit in with the Buddhist concept of reincarnation, which is a little bit different than the Hindu version.
There are documented cases of people who have received organ transplants, and who afterward take on aspects of the donor's personality. Might this be a form of reincarnation?
My attitude about all this is: The universe created me. If it can do it once, it can do it again. That doesn't mean I'll be who I am now, or even that I'll reappear on Earth. (In fact, I highly doubt it.) To take Carl Sagan out of context, if I can only exist on Earth, then the universe is a real waste of space.
As to your other point, Buddhists believe in the doctrine of Anatman, which means "no soul." So your assertion is incorrect.
safeinOhio
(33,925 posts)the writings of Paul.
muriel_volestrangler
(102,372 posts)the ETs, without all the tedious time delays of years that we would be subject to?
I suspect many Christians would rather not think about extraterrestrial life, for the questions it raises about whether Jesus was necessary, eternal, human, limited and so on. And whether God in general is omnipresent if that means connecting all the points in the universe simultaneously.
trev
(1,480 posts)say that the deity permeates all space and time. If this is so, then questions of speed are meaningless. Divine actions would be instantaneous.
Most Christians I've known say god is outside of the universe, yet somehow manages to be involved in everything that takes place here. "Jesus in the heart," and all that. I find this view perplexing.