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edhopper

(34,660 posts)
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 08:43 AM Aug 2019

"Something" is the natural state of things

Last edited Sun Aug 18, 2019, 10:47 AM - Edit history (1)

Why something instead of nothing? We don't know. But there is a presumption in that question that "nothing" is the natural state of things. But there is "something" and it is the stable order of the Universe. There are no eruptions of nothingness breaking into the something. There is no external "higher power" that is needed to keep the something in tact.

So maybe the question, which many deists use as an argument for the existence of a God, is not a question that needs to be answered.
Maybe the question should be, if the objective state of things is something, why conjecture that nothing is the default order?

32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"Something" is the natural state of things (Original Post) edhopper Aug 2019 OP
Buddhists say that everything has a dependent cause. wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #1
But was there? edhopper Aug 2019 #2
Agree wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #5
The first link in the chain WhiteTara Aug 2019 #3
The cause of suffering wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #6
No Mind No Buddha WhiteTara Aug 2019 #4
What does that even mean? edhopper Aug 2019 #7
The brain is an organ WhiteTara Aug 2019 #8
The mind is a function of the brain. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2019 #14
I think you have that backwards WhiteTara Aug 2019 #15
No, I really don't. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2019 #16
Okay. So you rose from no thing WhiteTara Aug 2019 #17
Me, you, and everything. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2019 #18
Rose from no thing? WhiteTara Aug 2019 #19
Biochemistry and a healthy dose of selective pressure. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2019 #20
That's not no thing WhiteTara Aug 2019 #21
"No thing" is not a term I used. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2019 #23
nothing - no thing WhiteTara Aug 2019 #25
your brain, body, life and everything else qazplm135 Aug 2019 #26
why does "simply an organ" preclude consciousness? Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #27
When you tell me WhiteTara Aug 2019 #28
Uh you? Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #31
I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2019 #32
We really have no concept of "nothing". Try to imagine what lies beyond the end of the universe... TreasonousBastard Aug 2019 #9
good points edhopper Aug 2019 #10
We do have a concept of nothing. CrispyQ Aug 2019 #11
Interesting concept of nothing, but it's very specific and ignores the somethings... TreasonousBastard Aug 2019 #12
Everything is all that is. mia Aug 2019 #13
My hubs says you're exactly RIGHT. Duppers Aug 2019 #22
High praise edhopper Aug 2019 #24
Limitations of human visual system led delisen Aug 2019 #29
I BELIEVE in nothing. edhopper Aug 2019 #30
 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
1. Buddhists say that everything has a dependent cause.
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 08:48 AM
Aug 2019

The question is what was the first cause and how did it happen. From that all kinds of ideas arise.

edhopper

(34,660 posts)
2. But was there?
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 08:54 AM
Aug 2019

We don't know.
Aristotle and Augustine also talked about the first cause. But two thoughts on that. That is a logical concept not based on scientific evidence. And then, of course, even with a first cause, there is no need to posit an intelligence behind it.

edhopper

(34,660 posts)
7. What does that even mean?
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 09:19 AM
Aug 2019

That seems to propose a mind/body separation for which there is no evidence.

Or is it saying, No Brain No Buddha? That there is nothing being the natural Universe and our understanding comes from ourselves?

WhiteTara

(30,128 posts)
8. The brain is an organ
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 09:54 AM
Aug 2019

the mind is the stream of consciousness. As with all koans, it stretches the brain cells.

WhiteTara

(30,128 posts)
15. I think you have that backwards
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 09:01 AM
Aug 2019

Mind is essence and brain is function. Your brain did not manifest your body as it is part of the body.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
16. No, I really don't.
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 09:08 AM
Aug 2019

The mind is a product of the electrochemical processes of the brain. Interrupt or otherwise alter those processes, and the mind follows suit.

Phineas Gage

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
23. "No thing" is not a term I used.
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 12:59 PM
Aug 2019

It is a term you used and are, for whatever reason, attributing to me. I don't know what it means or how it even relates to this discussion.

WhiteTara

(30,128 posts)
25. nothing - no thing
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 03:16 PM
Aug 2019

I'm just asking how you can manifest your life and body from your brain which is simply an organ.
I have attributed nothing to you. I'm simply asking questions.

qazplm135

(7,465 posts)
26. your brain, body, life and everything else
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 03:36 PM
Aug 2019

"manifested" from an egg from your mom fertilized from the sperm from your dad.
It grew in your mom's belly thanks to nutrients provided by her.

That then led to your brain and the rest of your organs and parts as that fertilized egg grew and followed the plan of the DNA inside of it.

Your brain then "manifested" your mind.
Because your brain was still massively underdeveloped, so was your mind...to start. So much so that from 0-1 or 2, dogs and cats are more sophisticated and intelligent and aware.

Then you grew, and your brain grew and thus your mind grew until roughly the early 20s when the brain, more or less, stops developing (of course there are some small changes for good and for ill that continue on over life but nothing approaching ordinarily what happens during this 20+ year development cycle).

It's why most of us more or less are who we are by our late 20s barring something significant.
It's why significant damage to the brain fundamentally changes our personality and sense of self.
It's why being born with just a brain stem leads to no cognition or sense of self.
"You" requires your brain. If you change your brain, you change "you." Look at what happens to lobotomized people.
If your brain doesn't work right, your mind doesn't work right. See e.g. chemical imbalances and mental illness or amygdala size and schizophrenia.

So, your mind needs your brain. Without a brain, you don't have a mind. A dysfunctional brain means a dysfunctional mind.

It's not rocket science (although I suppose it can involve brain surgery).

Voltaire2

(14,632 posts)
27. why does "simply an organ" preclude consciousness?
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 03:47 PM
Aug 2019

You seem to assume that consciousness cannot be a physical process. Why?

Voltaire2

(14,632 posts)
31. Uh you?
Tue Aug 20, 2019, 06:44 AM
Aug 2019

“I'm just asking how you can manifest your life and body from your brain which is simply an organ. ”

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
32. I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking.
Tue Aug 20, 2019, 07:32 AM
Aug 2019

The brain doesn't "manifest" the body. The brain is a part of the body.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "life". Are you talking about that which separates organisms from inorganic matter, or the totality of my being?

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
9. We really have no concept of "nothing". Try to imagine what lies beyond the end of the universe...
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 10:12 AM
Aug 2019

or what "infinity" really means. What would be here if the universe never happened?

W@hat would be here if nothing was here? A nothing more "nothingy" than just a vacuum, which would be something. "Nothing" means the non-existence of "something" to compare it to. So if we have the concept of "something", is that not the existence of something?

So, we have to dive deep into the concept of nothingness to even eliminate the concept of something. The human mind cannot do that.

So, "something" is the natural state of things in our universe. How did the somethings come about? We don't know and may never know. We also may never know about the possibility of "nothing".

Not all deists claim God created the universe; some simply consider it an unanswerable, and therefore irrelevant, mystery. And many consider God to be just one step above us, with possibly many steps and gods above them. God is there as the ultimate appeals court and management of just our sector. Of course, we humans have a problem deciding which god is the real one, or how it speaks to us.

Personally, I am fascinated by solipsism. The thought that all of this is merely my mind creating everything from the lilies of the field to mass murder is strangely comforting while it is terrifying. Perhaps it's not just my mind, but a few minds working together to create conflict.

I have to go now.

CrispyQ

(38,052 posts)
11. We do have a concept of nothing.
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 12:35 PM
Aug 2019

Nothing is what we were before birth & are going to be after death.

Issac Asimov wrote a story titled "The Last Question," which was basically, can entropy be reversed? It's been decades since I read it, but I remember the ending. It was kind of a cheat, but unexpected. Carl Sagan's book, "Contact" had a gods-as-just-a-more-advanced-species-than-we-are aspect to it. The book was so good & the movie was sooooooo bad! The end of the book was—perfect.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
12. Interesting concept of nothing, but it's very specific and ignores the somethings...
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 01:29 PM
Aug 2019

surrounding it.

If nothing is interrupted by something, is it still nothing?

I met Asimov many years ago, and he did have a penchant for asking unanswerable questions. He also had a way of making you think he thought he had the answer hidden away. He was a regular fixture at the Mensa annual gatherings he could get to. He would not fly, and if he couldn't take a train he wouldn't go.

Contact, btw was originally written as a movie, and when the project died he came out with the book that revived the movie project.

The best science fiction gives possible answers to things science fails at. Asimov was a master at that, and Sagan, being a scientist himself, builds a beautiful bridge.



Duppers

(28,234 posts)
22. My hubs says you're exactly RIGHT.
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 12:55 PM
Aug 2019

Thanks for your brilliant post; Mr. Duppers, PhD physics, also says thanks.

edhopper

(34,660 posts)
24. High praise
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 01:13 PM
Aug 2019

I would much rather hear what a physicist has to say about something/nothing than a theologian.

delisen

(6,408 posts)
29. Limitations of human visual system led
Mon Aug 19, 2019, 06:05 PM
Aug 2019

to the belief that a state on nothingness or emptiness exists.

It is another example of belief preceding scientific knowledge.

Similar to notions of "race" based upon phenotypes preceding scientific knowledge.

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