Are there people in Hell still doing time on a meat rap?

Full of guilt, repression and misogyny (unless you're the 'virgin' Mary).

Mankind has been set back millennia by the evil that is the Catholic Church, its mind control policies and its hideous cover-up of child rape by the THOUSANDS (if not MILLIONS) over the centuries... There is no atonement possible for the dammage they have collectively wrought on humanity past, present and future. It is too bad there is no hell, because the leadership of the church would have kept it freshly stocked for thousands of years.

Of course, they stay in Hell or Purgatory. They fucked up and God knows they fucked up. Buggery and weinie waving --- Jesus don't like that shit goin' on.

Just because a Pope went off the rails, the replacement pope, when we impeach this one, will straighten this shit out.

I can only share my own perspective/opinion as a Catholic, and I think that (if there is a hell) it isn't a place of punishment, but rather it is a state of existence outside the direct presence of god.

I guess that the best way to explain hell is to first define heaven. I see heaven as open to anyone/everyone regardless of their belief or their non-belief. In other words, it is a gift to all who live their lives in the service of others, especially those most in need. And (conversely) those who ignore those most in need during their life will not experience the direct presence of god after their death. But I also believe that hell does not have to be a permanent state of existence - and even someone in hell can eventually experience the direct presence of god in heaven.

So it's not so much that hell itself changes (and people are or are not paroled based on the current teaching of the church) but rather our perception of hell changes.

Again, these are just my personal thoughts - as always, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss topics such as this.

Thank you again - wishing you well and peace

Tim

Could you not decide next week hell is really the place you want to be and heaven is just where the almighty watches you masturbate?

To my thinking, all we can do is to try to live the best life we can, and I see that as trying my best to help others.

Not to try and get into heaven or to avoid hell, but simply out of love and respect for others.

I may be right, or I might be wrong.

I hope that I answered your question, if not I apologize for misunderstanding.

In any event, thank you again for the discussion

As always, wishing you well and peace.

Tim

It’s hard to imagine Christianity lasting for as long as it has without the concept of heaven and hell.

Without the conveniently unverifiable promise of reward and punishment, there isn’t much left besides cool stories of flood, hocus pocusing water into wine, and talking donkeys.

are viewed that change.

For example, as a Catholic who went to school during the early 1970s and early 1980s, I was never taught that heaven was exclusive to only those who held the same beliefs as I do. In fact, one of my favorite prayers on this subject is attributed to Rabia Basri (female Muslim saint and Sufi mystic):


O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.


I see heaven is a gift available to anyone - whether they believe in god or not.

Referring back to the Basri prayer, I believe that we "worship" god not by prayers or by going to church, or even in believing that god exists...but we worship god by taking care of others. So trying to avoid hell or to get into heaven (to my way of thinking) is self-centered. I am focused on myself and what I (might) get out of it.

But if I try to take care of those in need (the hungry, the cold, the lonely, the sick, the poor, etc.) I am other-centered. And that is how I believe god would like me to act. Because if I am only focused on myself, I may not see those in need around me.

And you are correct, I can not verify that there is a heaven or a hell. But if avoiding hell and hoping to get into heaven are not my goals, then that shouldn't matter.

Thank you again - wishing you well and peace!

Tim

For me helping others is its own reward. The only person I seek approval from is myself when I look in the mirror. The only life I’m worried about is my own mortality.

If you are doing it to appease someone you think is paying attention and/or to avoid disapproval, then it’s pretty incredible to think the idea of reward and punishment doesn’t enter your mind.

I think that perhaps it boils down to motivation.

Am I doing it to gain something for myself?

For example, am I doing something because I am worried about appeasing someone (such as god) because it might determine whether or not I will wind up in heaven or hell, or am I doing something because I want to help someone?

In a way, it reminds me of the Parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector (Luke 18, verses 9-14)

9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer[a]: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

It seems to me that the Pharisee is not motivated by love or compassion, but rather by making himself look good, and basically saying "I'm better than others, so I deserve to be rewarded." On the other hand, the Tax Collector is asking for mercy.

In the same way, do I try to help people so I can boast about it? Or do I try to help people because I want to help them? Do I think that by helping others that I can "pay my way" into heaven? Or if I do enough "good deeds" it will balance out all of the bad things that I've done so I can avoid hell?

I see heaven as a gift - not something that I deserve, but something that I can attain simply by accepting it. And by "accepting it" I don't mean adhering to the tenets of a particular religion or set of beliefs. It is a gift available to all and for all. I believe that we accept the gift of heaven by living for others, by treating others well and with respect, and by helping who we can, when we can, and how best we can.

I imagine that we may see this differently, but I greatly appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion with you.

Again, wishing you well and peace.

Tim

From the outside looking in it just seems if one subscribes to the idea of heaven and/or hell, then the idea of carrot and stick seems to follow, especially when you describe the former as a gift with conditions attached.

Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Thank you again for the opportunity to share and discuss our different points of view!

It's always a pleasure.

Best to you -

Tim

He gets demoted for saying that what his god had others believe for hundreds of years was utterly false and a mistake.

"Those people, they were so inferior to us. Look at us! We're so awesome, we're *finally* getting right what Jesus and God had almost 2000 years to straight out. What wimpy Holy Spirit thing, our sacramental wine's stronger than that holy spirit thing. Pie Jesu, suge mentulam meam!"

Every change produces heresy. Every change says, "Those who came before weren't really christians." And for a church that depends on tradition for its authority, that's a problem. Every time somebody says, "Now the church will finally get it right" means that they were just plain wrong before.

(Needless to say, am not and have never been a Catholic.)