Religion

DetlefK

(16,450 posts) Sun Jul 5, 2020, 05:14 AM Jul 2020

A question for biblical history-buffs: Where did the holy sponge come from?

For the sake of my argument, let's treat the Bible as historically correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Sponge

The scene:

A few roman soldiers, on tour of duty in the occupied province Palestine, formerly the kingdom Israel, get assigned to stand guard at the execution-hill outside Jerusalem. Golgotha. Where people get executed the way that is customary for rebels in the Roman Empire: crucifixion. For years now there has been on and off insurgent activity by a group of jewish rebels called "zelots" and accordingly the roman soldiers are in full armor. It's a hot day, so the soldiers got provided with a ration of a traditional roman refreshing beverage: Water with a dash of wine-vinegar in it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posca
(Lemons were already widely known in Rome, but as a medical substance, not for refreshment. There was no lemonade in Ancient Rome.)

One of the dying rebels is a man named Yeshua, a wandering priest and religious fanatic who has disturbed the peace by giving the pharisees trouble. Eventually, the soldiers decide to give him some of their vinegar-water to drink, by tying a sponge to a stick or branch and holding it up to his mouth.

My question is: Where did this sponge come from?

The Bible simply says that one of the soldiers ran and fetched it, but from where? Where do you find a processed and ready-to-use sea-sponge at the edge of the city? And at the execution-hill at that?

The most obvious explanation is bad storytelling by people who wrote this scene long after it supposedly did or didn't happen. But let's keep on treating the Bible as a historical document.

Where would you find a sponge in a roman city?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylospongium
In a toilet. The Romans used a sponge-on-a-stick to wipe their ass after taking a shit and disinfected it afterwards by putting it in a jar with vinegar next to the toilet-bowl, ready for use for the next guy.

A sponge.
On a stick.
Soaked in vinegar.
And roman soldiers looking for some fun shove it into the face of a dying insurrectionist who thinks he's the Son of God.

5 replies

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Highlight:

A question for biblical history-buffs: Where did the holy sponge come from? (Original Post) DetlefK Jul 2020 OP

sponge-on-a-stick was toilet paper for the Romans eShirl Jul 2020 #1

This mistakenly assumes that sponges were not commonplace FBaggins Jul 2020 #2

Is it anything like edhopper Jul 2020 #3

Bikini Bottom? (n/t) PJMcK Jul 2020 #4

Romans were typically very far away. Igel Jul 2020 #5

eShirl

(18,754 posts)

1. sponge-on-a-stick was toilet paper for the Romans

Reply to DetlefK (Original post)

Sun Jul 5, 2020, 05:40 AM

Jul 2020

FBaggins

(27,457 posts)

2. This mistakenly assumes that sponges were not commonplace

Reply to DetlefK (Original post)

Sun Jul 5, 2020, 07:31 AM

Jul 2020

Or that containers of vinegar were not to be found pretty much anywhere Roman soldiers were found.

edhopper

(34,660 posts)

3. Is it anything like

Reply to DetlefK (Original post)

Sun Jul 5, 2020, 08:14 AM

Jul 2020

the Holly Hand Grenade?

PJMcK

(22,829 posts)

4. Bikini Bottom? (n/t)

Reply to DetlefK (Original post)

Sun Jul 5, 2020, 08:59 AM

Jul 2020

Igel

(36,010 posts)

5. Romans were typically very far away.

Reply to DetlefK (Original post)

Sun Jul 5, 2020, 11:07 AM

Jul 2020

And the eastern part of the empire was mostly Greek speaking. You got Latin, but you got a lot of Greek.

The account also says that it wasn't a pre-prepared xylospongium. They had to find something and rig it for that use.

Pessoi and ostraca were also used. But that doesn't mean that every pebble or bit of smooth pottery was an asswipe.

Sponges were used for all kinds of things. Wiping tables, for instance. Or your face. I'm not going to assume that it was standard practice to wipe your ass and then the table and then your face. Later, Europeans even used it for precisely the purpose in the NT--a rather poorly designed drinking vessel. It would come in handy in numerous ways--given a bucket or a stream it might be easier to use a sponge than to get your mouth to the water or use a hand to get water to the mouth.

The topic makes sense if you leave out a lot of "mights" and alternatives. And not otherwise.

More to the point (since it's not without some interest) was the question as to whether the sponge was clean (in the sense "tahor", ceremonially pure or kosher, not the more banal sense you, um, rise to), because otherwise the last thing Jesus would have done was consume something tame. (Yes, that has two syllables. "Unclean" or "impure".)

Apparently sponges were considered more plant than animal, however we socially construct the terms now, and their skeletons, at least, were considered tahor by the time of the Talmud and the time the Talmud claims to historically recall. I don't recall their mention from my reading of the Mishnah (and I haven't read the Tosefta), but the Mishnah's a small, little thing. And I wasn't really focused on sponges (more on Pesah).

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