It doesn't mean that true faith in God and the desire to live a moral life based on the example of someone good is wrong.

Far from it.

BUT when people in power want the support of the masses, they use "the church" whichever one will comply

The Crusades
The Inquisition
The Salem Witch Hunts

The Borgia Family

Pat Robertson / PTL Club

KKK whitewashing themselves in the Bible and Constitution

https://brown-shannonelizabeth.medium.com/the-kkk-is-a-christian-organization-b4e994b0bba1

https://voices.uchicago.edu/religionculture/2017/06/26/the-klan-white-christianity-and-the-past-and-present-a-response-to-kelly-j-baker-by-randall-j-stephens/

to apply to most if not all religions - not sure about Hinduism or Buddhism?

I just wonder what seems attractive about the GOP in terms of support of religious people. They lie and while I'm sure that some Dems do also it is no where close to what we have seen in the last 40 years. They make up stuff and it seems the nastier it is the more attractive it is to white evangelicals and Catholics. I live in a Catholic community and unless you go to this rural church then you will always be an outsider. That is fine with me but when I see my neighbors putting the "Come and Take It" signs or "Pro-Life Pro Trump" it is pretty obvious that they are just not my genre of people.

I honestly think is is a "white" religious thing. All of my Black friends are religious but never seem to mix their religious ideology with how they vote. For some reason it seems that the GOP represent the "God People" to Anglo Christians.

I've always thought of religion as a personal choice - I really could care less what they believe but when it means that they push their religious beliefs into laws that affect everyone that is wrong. Not everyone is a Christian. Has it ever been the purpose of government to enforce religious doctrine as a law?

Christianity is about forgiveness and following the example of Christ.

The stuff being pulled out of the Bible about gays for example is from Leviticus. OLD Testament.

Jesus told the parable about The Good Samaritan to show an example of how someone from a different race, one Jewish people kind of looked upon as barbarians could do the right thing even when a Pharisee might not.

Jesus was not a racist. He specifically preached to Gentiles and held people close to him who were thrown away and scorned by society.

Buddhists do not consider themselves a "religion" rather a way of life and are very much about people not forcing anyone to believe anything. It's about better understanding, going with the flow and finding peace in evolving yourself - if I correctly interpret what people have shared with me about it.

Hinduism is too big for my brain. It seems they have a different God for everything. One friend tried to explain it to me and he was a very kind and intelligent person. Some of it frustrated him, but he still believed the core fundamentals helped him live a better life.

I can only relate in that Catholic Saints are like that in some way. As an example of someone who lived their life well and can teach others to follow the teachings in some specific way.


AND I think your black friends probably DO vote their religion by voting DEM.

The last words of Christ before he was taken away to be crucified over and over again were, "Feed my sheep" and it was about caring for those in need as much as teaching them.

I believe Jesus when he said, "Whenever you (do good) to the least of these, you do it for me."

He then went on to say that if you Don't do good things for others when you have the means, it's as if you're mistreating Him.

So to be a DEM who wants people to be treated fairly is to be following the example and teachings of Christ.

To be a DEM who believes there should be a Department of Peace and we should go to war ONLY as a last resort is to be true to the man who has been called The Prince of Peace. Who was so non-violent he taught us to not strike back, but turn the other cheek.

There is a lot about being a Christian who walks the walk that IS in line with Democratic principals.

We don't OWN morality, but if we have ears to listen we can get some lessons in church as long as the minister or priest isn't a Reich Wing tool. Even then, like a broken clock, he might be right twice a day.

more "faith". But it is not what my life experience has been. The idea that questioning religion makes people uncomfortable shows me that it is more of a social thing than a spiritual endeavor. I just can't stomach the never ending hypocrisy of using religion as a means of forgiving bad behavior.

As someone said, "I love Jesus, it's Christians that bother me".

Not so sure that all religions are anything more than a manmade effort to control people by diverting issues to supernatural agents who monitor behavior and punish moral infractions. I have a hard time swallowing that concept.

It's ok to question Religion, but I personally don't blame God for how humans have warped things.

One of the Disciples, Thomas, doubted the others when they said they saw Christ after He rose from the dead. Jesus didn't throw him away. Let him touch the wounds so he could see for himself.

Is everything in the Bible literal? I don't know. Isn't the point to me. The point is figuring out how to live your best life.

Context-wise churches have been a way to bring meaning into lives, teach lessons on how to behave better toward each other and keep going when life is kicking you in the face. It's been a place of community which provides support in many ways. It's part of the history of becoming civilized.

It's also been used by powerful people to control the masses.


I just hope people on DU can see both sides of the coin.

It isn't all one way. Evangelicals don't OWN God.

The Reich is only the Right Wing of the bird. We the People are the REST of the bird and some of us are balanced, moderate Christians just living the best we can.

We CAN get along if we allow separation of Church and State.

I agree that freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion.

I don't think believers should bash people over the head with Bibles and I don't think skeptics should bash believers over the head with facts.

Wish people could learn to have tolerant conversations and I think that hope probably stands it's best chance here on DU.

Tolerance is kind of our thing.

Peace

But it's not just rightwing people, some people on the left do the same damn thing.

Including on this forum.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/122110540

IF you don't want to go to a church, don't.

But let others be who they want to be.

WHAT skin is it off your nose?

WHY would you go into a room where people want to have their religion without REICH WING influence and bitch slap them for it?

And yet here you are, proving my point.

Your link was to one of the religious boards here and I thought you were calling the existence of that board as proof of "religiosity" on the left.

I didn't deeply read the posts so I might have missed something.

What specifically was your point?

Full Ignore List.

And you don't answer my question, just bang your head in rage and decide to ignore anything I ever say in the future.

Not exactly a mature response, but you are perfectly free to do so.

Not trying to be an mean person here.

I don't get why you are so upset, but I am willing to try and understand you if you're willing to be more clear about what you meant.

Duplicate

is bunch of liars and crazies who pretend to be righteous all the while spreading their bigotry and hatred. Trump was not the cause. I remember in the 60's when the entire Bible Belt turned Red because the Dems did not support Segregation. And it has been that way since then. Surely it does have it's roots in religion in some manner - the question is indeed WHY?

But you are free from religion. No one HAS to go to church if they don't want to.

Is the Reich Wing using religion as a tool? Yes. They beat people over the head with the Bible.

I would support a movement to stop that myself.

Just as DEMs are the true majority in the US, there is a whole group of moderate Christians who are upset by this misuse of the Churches influence.

But if I support you being free FROM people throwing religiosity AT you, can you support ME having my faith in peace?

It's one group. You have plenty of other places to post your opinions that don't intrude into a group.

I am on my cell phone and DU seems a bit different.

Jesus did not ask to be worshipped.
Jesus was Jewish... He believed in Judaism.
There is no Judeo-Christian thing.

It’s made up. Made up long after Jesus was dead. Or resurrected or nonexistent.

He did teach certain principals.

Forgiveness
Humility
Sacrifice
Compassion
Philanthropy

Not all religion is bad.

AND there ARE Jews for Christ.



It HAS been used extensively against the population on many occasions.


BUT I don't hold the way religion has been screwed up against the overall message. It's not a bad message.

It’s about the current brand of evangelical.

of most evangelical religions - at least in the South.

Can it be used to find someone and do bad things to that person?

Yeah, but is that the root purpose of all maps?

Maybe some maps are designed with that purpose but not all.

Just like all Dobermans are dogs, but not all dogs are Dobermans.

And even not all Dobermans are attack dogs, though that was a huge part of developing the breed.

The origin of dogs was an agreement between canines and humans to work together.

The origin of the Christian faith was an agreement by humans that they believe in a God that loved us enough to die in our place.

If churches out there bastardize the message, go around judging others and support racism, that is NOT Christlike.

I just hope that people don't lump all Christians in with the crazy Reich Wing nuts.

And support the crazy stuff. It's frustrating for everyone, but when a person knows what Christians really need to stand for it's mind boggling.

Even Evangelicals who root for the KKK are claiming some aspect of Christianity BUT with heavy distortion.

So as I also have crazy tRumpies in my family and friends.... (I keep in touch with people I have known since grade school. Lots of changes.) I struggle with this question all the time.

I grew up Catholic and stepped away when Pope John Paul started going back to pre-Vatican 2 ideology (gays bad, going to hell. Abortion murder and no pill either. ) Then Pope Benedict came in and doubled down and added only Catholics going to heaven. Sigh.

Hung out with the Methodists until the minister I respected left and they hired a former Baptist for the job.

If I am required to pass judgement on anyone to stay in a church, I hit the pavement.

But I still choose to believe and do my personal best to follow the example of Christ. I fail as much as most, but I try to keep myself honest at least.

Edit: At a different Christian venue each year. I’ve been a Methodist, Presbyterian, an Episcopalian, Lutheran, and reformed Evangelical Lutheran.

I learned they all make up the rules.
They were all paternal.
They all contradicted each other.

They persuade me that organized religion, to me, is fake. Which lead me to science.

I believe Hawking was correct in his assessment that god is superfluous to the creation of the universe.

So I’m fine that you have such faith.

But don’t stand on the corner professing the glory of god as that is for the glory of man not god.

I do stand up for those DEMs who are balanced Christians who still think for themselves.

I also stand up for pagans and atheists, Hindus and Native American believers.

Whatever gets you through the day or night. Not my place to judge...

And that IS in the Bible, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

But it really is breaking my heart that people use religion to cover up racist BS.

Jesus was hardest on the Pharisees.

He held them accountable to knowing better but still behaving in a hypocritical manner.

Of making themselves a big deal and putting God on as a side dish.

The only ones who pissed Jesus off more were the money changers who were ripping people off as they walked in the doors.

So I know if Jesus were here today he would hand tRump his own ass and tell him what's real.

...and will do anything you want as long as you ask for it correctly, then believing in the GOP is a small ask.

Dawkin's posited that the human brain is hardwired to obey authority. The GOP just has their foot on that specific switch.

Good people will do good things,
And bad people will do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things,
Well, that takes religion.

There's a little bit of BAD in the BEST of US.
A little bit of GOOD in the LEAST of US.
SO it hardly behooves ANY OF US
To talk about the REST of US.


http://www.robert-louis-stevenson.org/richard-dury-archive/nonquotes.htm

No one is perfect and people in power know how to push buttons to get results.

FEED THE LIES

** Abortion is bad = if someone supports pro-choice they are murdering babies. VOTE AGAINST THEM.

People HATE murder and rightly so. IF YOU HATE THE ACT, then hate "the murderer" but it is a false equivalency.

No one who truly understands abortion would like to have babies murdered.
But at what point is the baby technically alive and what other options are available to people who want control over their own bodies is a higher question than the blatant false equivalency.

** YOU WORK HARD, give your money to GOD, not some lazy heathen. VOTE AGAINST SOCIAL PROGRAMS.

Believing that helping via the church is better than letting the government help people is a slippery slope. The people in the church can be doing good works and feel that is enough but don't understand the full scope of disadvantage is being faced and how deep the talons of the rich are in the pocketbook of America. HOW little Social Programs cost vs the fallout of no safety net.



BEING A REAL CHRISTIAN IS CONSTANT HARD WORK AND REQUIRES HUMILITY AND SELF EXAMINATION.

It's a lot easier to go to church and feel better, be judgemental and work on yourself a little bit.


I was raised Catholic and I understand the deeper aspects of many of the rituals.

Confession for instance fosters the idea of self examination.

Communion and examining the crucifixion fosters a connection to the idea that there IS forgiveness and that even if it was just a historical event, someone went to great lengths to bring the idea about that if we live our lives in a better way, we are not slaves to the past.

Hearing the Bible read and examining the lessons it teaches in a group setting can be a good thing. A lot of morality is based on the principals it contains and that isn't all bad. Beating people over the head with the Bible, not such a good thing.

Jesus himself was all about telling people to keep their own noses clean and not be in other people's business.

SO anyone who truly looks to the words and deeds of Christ will not be judging their neighbor as much as someone who just walks in the doors to feel better about themselves.

Everyone, Christians and non-Christians fall short of their ideals. So even well intentioned folks will act in ways against their own morality in times of great stress.


It's kinda like people at a gym feeling superior over people who don't go to a gym even if they aren't getting huge results or just maintaining themselves. Some people will simply feel proud of their own achievements and others will want to rub someone's nose in it.

We all have good and bad impulses, it takes discipline and self awareness to REALLY do the right thing on a consistent basis and going to church and challenging yourself to be a better person is often a way to keep yourself in check. There are other ways and sometimes church becomes a manipulation platform with willing listeners. So people in power will use it if they can.

That’s bs. That’s your definition of sin. It’s not mine.

And anyone who needs the rules about good and bad written down so they know is, to me, not giving enough credit to humans. Humans who had a knowledge of right or wrong long before some judge mental cult coopted it.

sinners is rationalization. It is a convenient excuse for wrongdoing.

But “They” say he’s repented.

Bullshit.

Plus, for me personally, any deity that holds a grudge; because one woman, a
deity created one, ate a stupid piece of fruit, is not for me.

at its very foundation subordinates them.

Old Testament and New Testament have a lot of differences.

There is a lot of anger and smiting in the Old Testament.

More forgiveness and do onto others as you would have done to you in the New Testament.

I don't see Adam and Eve quite as simplistically as it can be taught

To me, consuming "knowledge of good and evil," was what wrecked them. It is said, Lucifer planted that tree. It messed with their minds. Maybe being in the Garden of Eden required a more open mind. Not one filled with rules and judgement.

Maybe going out of the garden was a way to unlearn the crap that popped into their mind when they ate the apple.

Maybe it's more of a metaphor.

Those who try to interpret the Bible 100% literally are missing the whole context I think.

I said those attracted to the church have that commonality.

I know that Buddhists don't see people as inherently sinful, as an example.

But looking at how religion gets warped into religiosity, I was suggesting that no one is perfect, so it's easy to get pushed into wrong mindedness even when one has good intentions.

My point is more about how there have been people in power misusing the influence churches have in order to control the masses.

I support people however they choose to believe or otherwise honorably live their lives.

I have friends of all kinds.

What does KKK stand for?

Klu Klux Klan.

What is being "triggered" is not any Christian VALUE.

This is CLAN Values.

US vs Them.

Pre Christian.

Pre civilization.

Barely out of the cave and only trusting people who are related to you or closely affiliated with your people.

Family lines that hang onto this mentality, even if it's more subconscious or dressed up as "Blueblood" pass these attitudes down.

There are people with those issues that go to church and wrap the bullshit up in religion, but that doesn't mean all religion is bullshit.

... various "Christian values" in their platform to help get Reagan elected.

Many of them are fascist in their Christian beliefs too, especially the evangelicals who are regularly taught to CONVERT more followers.

Hence a "live and let live" attitude isn't really in their mindsets. Even when that's pointed out to them, they're more likely to proclaim themselves to be the victims of intolerance because they're not always given free reign to impose their religious beliefs on others. It's amazing mental gymnastics, like a bully who whines about policies that aren't allowing him to physically shake down others for money.

Several of them are anti-government solely because of the secular aspects of it. So the imbedded attempts of destroying it by Republicans is fine by them. Unless the government is pushing their Christian beliefs on everyone, it's pointless to them. They'll say things like God is their master, not a government organized by men. As if we could have it organized any other way! But somehow it's different in their minds as long as it's their charlatans, constantly referencing God, who do it.

But you are right, many use religion as a white wash for their evil deeds.

Someone who has actually studied, understands and lives in line with what Jesus said and did will not embrace racism or homophobia.

But anyone can get a Minister's license and put up a shingle.

Imitation leather and fake Armani from a car trunk doesn't mean all leather is fake or all Armani's are junk from a trunk.

Food for thought.

Peace.

Last edited Sat Jun 5, 2021, 02:25 AM - Edit history (1)

Just like it's not ONLY racism and homophobia that causes 80%+ of white evangelicals to vote for Republicans. That's some BS right there that I've seen posted here in the past.

But why the evangelicals and not others?

Because they're far more comfortable imposing their beliefs, which they can't even objectively demonstrate, on others. They're regularly compelled to direct their attention outward at the non-believers, and to convert them.

If white evangelicals didn't have a long history of privilege in this country, and they'd instead been rounded up and sterilized against their will as a group for example, then perhaps they wouldn't be so eager to impose themselves on others because of their beliefs based on nothing objectively?

Unlike the black evangelicals out there?
https://religionunplugged.com/news/2020/4/7/rev-al-sharpton-on-the-black-evangelical-vote
"I may disagree with abortion personally,” Sharpton said. “That’s not the issue. The issue is do I have the right to put my personal will on another person? Suppose someone of a different religion becomes president. Do they have a right to make me as a Baptist illegal?”

Edit:
And it's a different story among black evangelicals still living in Africa too, more similar to white evangelicals in their support of Trump:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-54297372

It's the imposition of their faith-based beliefs upon others that's especially galling, and that's currently most practiced by white evangelicals. Earlier in history, Catholics were a major problem in that regard.

I'd actually consider a coin toss to be more reality-based. At least the coin could be viewed and verified by everyone.

how could good people (including my family) embrace the actions of the those in the GOP that are so antithetical to what I would consider decent morality. I try to not be judgmental but how can you overlook the name-calling, the racism, narcissism, misogyny, and then try and mask it with your religious beliefs.

I kind of expect it from the honey-boo-boo crowd, and even the greedy rich bastards, but I think the well educated middle class it is just plain old-fashioned racism. The GOP speaks their language.

That can be benign - solidarity with your neighbours - or excluding "Others" ("how can you be in, if there is no outside?", in the words of Peter Gabriel).

Most people stay in the religion their parents brought them up in. The rituals - baptism (or its equivalent), marriage and burial - signal belonging to the group, and its role in deciding how the group continues to define who is in it. People identify with the religion, and mix in their identification with other groups. When the religion is in the majority, it becomes intertwined with the official power of the state or community, either formally, or informally. This allows racism, misogyny, and other bigotry to become religious orthodoxy.

When people do change sect in a significant way, or join an entirely new religion, it's also signalling their allegiance to a new group - either conforming with the most influential in the area, or rebelling against it.

When the idea of which group they want to be seen in has been sorted, then the matter of following the defined morals and aims of the religion can be addressed - if they find there's room. If not, membership will take priority. And some rules usually offer a handy way of policing the right of others to belong to the same group.

Nationalism offers the same opportunity to be "in" a dominant group, and to police membership, and often combines with religion.