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icymist

(15,888 posts)
Thu Jan 5, 2012, 10:28 PM Jan 2012

Don't Put Wands in the Hands of Cavemen

<snip>
I overheard a coven member telling a new Seeker at his first open circle, “Wicca is the oldest religion.” I cringed, swallowed and reminded myself that I, too, am a guest at this open circle and that I also did once believe Wicca was an ancient religion. That was many years ago, before I became as scholarly as I try to be now, and because most of the Pagan authors of that era stated it was such, I believed them. After all, they knew enough to write a book, right?

Gerald Gardner formed Wicca. He claims that Dorothy Clutterbuck taught him, but unless the woman led an astounding secret life, she was no Witch herself. I suppose it is possible that he used someone else’s name so as not to “out” his teacher, but if that were the case, why would he have used the name of a real local person at all? Then there is the fusion of Crowley-style Ceremonial magick with folk tradition (historically, Cunning Folk and Witches were common people, usually quite illiterate; while Ceremonial magick was something for the learned nobility or court-sponsored alchemists such as John Dee) , which points to formulation rather than having it passed down through the ages.

The worst case of “Wicca is ancient” I came across was a forum site some “High Priestess” had set up to teach about “Real Wicca” over the internet. She came upon me in another forum and invited me to hers. I was dumb-founded. She claimed that Wicca had been practiced for MILLIONS of years. She was none-too-happy when I pointed out that the human race as we exist now is only around 200, 000 years old and that I doubted homo erectus had wands or athames in their repertoire of tools.

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=uspa&c=words&id=14886

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Don't Put Wands in the Hands of Cavemen (Original Post) icymist Jan 2012 OP
I have to wonder how many of these people Tyrs WolfDaemon Jan 2012 #1
Few comments tama Jan 2012 #2
It's nice to see someone who does strive to be scholalry. Ruby Reason Feb 2012 #3

Tyrs WolfDaemon

(2,289 posts)
1. I have to wonder how many of these people
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 07:00 PM
Jan 2012

that claim such long histories didn't originally hear the statements from someone that "didn't mean it as a factual statement" and then ran with it. They probably hear the statement and then go to find 'evidence' to support their new sense of history. It is easy to say something in a more sarcastic, metaphorical, imaginative, personal idiocy (this is where I find most of my comments are), etc only to have someone think you really believe what you said. Then depending on what came out of your mouth, and who the audience is, you could be the start of a whole new chapter of world history. I knew one person that thought humans and dinos lived together all because they grew up watching the Flintstones. I’m not sure we ever convinced her that the show was all made up.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
2. Few comments
Tue Jan 10, 2012, 04:05 PM
Jan 2012

"The problem there is that before the Indo-European invasions, there was no writing system in Europe. No writing means there are no historical records, no historical records means it’s pre-history; pre-history means that aside from archaeology and anthropological comparisons with other regions: we don’t know."

The article continues with discussion of Shamanism, from the Tungusian word "the one who knows". There are rock paintings and living shamanistic traditions in Northern Eurasia, and the "mythical" meaning of ancient rock paintings is clear to contemporary shamans. There have been oral histories of pre-Indo-European shamanistic peoples preserved in epics like Kalevala, and there is knowledge preserved in the structures and meanings of non-Indoeuropean languages themselves, if one is ready to listen. The knowledge is to be found in shamanistic journeys and in the thundering song and silence of woods.

There is lot more to time than we can think of (and theoretical physicists etc. can think plenty!), and interestingly in my non-Indo-European language the the word for thinking (ajattelu) and time (aika) share a common root, together with chasing/driving (ajaminen).

As for "Shamanism", it needs to be said that it is modern Western invention by Mircea Eliade, and more serious anthropology prefers the term "shamanhood" to describe ways of living that are dependent from shamans. And if you ask members of such tribes, they say they have no religion, only their shamans.

No doubt Wicca can claim that its true origin is in "shamanhood" and altered states of mind, and in that respect it is not different from other religions.

Ruby Reason

(242 posts)
3. It's nice to see someone who does strive to be scholalry.
Sat Feb 4, 2012, 11:24 AM
Feb 2012

With that said, since I know very little about Wicca, what does it entail? Perhaps a bit more history and a quick "ten commandments" type description would be ok here. Not to sound insulting as I know it can't actually be wrapped up in such a way. But I enjoyed the 5 virtues.

Also, how does Wicca differ from some of the other pagan spiritual paths or ancient wisdom (such as the Shaman spoken of in another post)?

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