I avoid those parts of DU and the world at large... i am no longer engaging in the brutality that fellow humans seem to think is acceptable in daily discourse. and as far as them talking about me? i could not care less thanks for saying it out loud.

as is my "problem"

And we'll see what kind of reaction this garners from my "saying it out loud"

and we are made fun of....

But hopefully some people begin to benefit by opening themselves up a bit as well.

I really resent the rudeness that so many in the other areas pride themselves for. I suppose that they think they are demonstrating a kind of cleverness.

I sometimes read the Religion forum, but, as I have pointed out to one of the hosts there, I don't post because I don't want to debate the points presented. I only want to discuss them, but you really can't do that there. How a point is presented, the semantics of your presentation of it, is far more important than the point itself. It's truly a competition there, seemingly of whom or who can be the cleverest

I know that I have betters things to read and do than sit here at my computer reading someone else mocking what I believe in. As for having a discussion with them, well I would have better luck talking to a seive.

What I've observed is that they "use" our forum as a kind of "woo mine" to find all those "crazy" things they disagree with or see as fit for attack.

The other interesting observation I've made that those (very few) atheists on this board that I find to be the most respectable are the least likely ones to attack others for their beliefs. All too often, they are also on the receiving end of attacks by their "fellow" atheists for their points of view. Two of those respectable atheists post here, so I'm sure you all know who they are without me calling them out

I suppose we could surround them with Love.

I wonder what will happen?

And just mentioning that here is probably enough, unless you think it needs either its own thread or mention in the Prayer and Healing thread? That might be more appropriate

Sending Love to the skeptics!

throwing water on a burning witch?

Help! Some impetuous science teacher just gave me some kind of drug and it's slowly turning me into a
teeny teeny
knat





help me






help me







help

Some people get off to that, no matter the insults!

so much energy to manage 'right thinking'. how exhausting it must be.

and you're right, engaging it is just validating anger and giving it strength. i feel no need to maintain a sour relationship. i have happier ones to share!

I haven't yet seen a reaction out there yet, though I'm sure they've seen this thread by now. I wonder if any of what we've said here will give them pause, and cause them to ponder their actions...

Nawwww!!

saying "oh shit, they're on to us"

People want control, which means they want simple explanations (meaning they can control things), so they actually fear the mysterious, the unexplained, etc. When anyone brings up something like this, it actually hits a nerve of some kind. The best way to silence us(they think) is to lash out.

I'm not into debating either. I might be a little too far out for a younger version of myself. But I wouldn't have feared it. I actually want to immerse myself in mystery and embrace it. People might fear me for this, and lash out.

I don't consciously avoid other areas of DU (except religion, lol). I go to Photography mostly, but also sometimes Health, Science, and Economics. I'm not a Lounge type person. Most GD topics I just don't have that much to add to the discussion........... Most of the nastiness of DU I learn from being on juries.

I only engaged in one long protracted argument on DU2. That was in Health where someone was actually (believe it or not!) advocating censorship of health information on the internet. He would have legislated any bad information about vaccines off the internet! I was so appalled that I changed my signature line and my avatar to a JFK quotation about free speech, and left it that way for months. That, of course was one of the big skeptics who wanted to legislate speech on the internet. I was astonished and kind of afraid for the country that anyone would advocate something like that. Later I found some cartoon that actually depicted a shift in the way people view free speech now. I had not realized there was such a shift. I'm tempted to go back to DU2 and find that long discussion, and also that cartoon.

that we all know exactly which DUer you speak of. He pretty well dominates that forum, and all too often, with the iron fist of "reason". However, I have seen him chagrined by his fellow "right-thinkers" when they've sometimes taken him to task for his ideas, such as regulating the Internet. I seem to recall that some of them balked at that as much as we would.

And all these aspects we discerned here, such as "right-thinking", "cleverness", "control", are all simply parts of the whole, the Fear inherent in their attitudes and postings. I don't know if it's a simple "fear of the unknown" or just of being even slightly "out of control" but it certainly guides and tempers all of their actions and reactions. I rarely see them hold themselves back, or even step back, and attempt to see the whole picture. They certainly can't seem to hold back in a "good" debate of semantics

I don't understand voyeurism generally, though.

that dedicate whole (and large) sections of their forums just to the monitoring and dissection of anything they find on DU with which they either disagree or find to be "DUmb.'

Like you, I find it to be creepy and just a colossal waste of time, energy, and emotion. What does it all get you in the end? Really, nothing. So why do it at all?

This group is so welcoming & accepting. I just can't imagine what it would be like to live with a mind so small & narrow, like those who dismiss what we post here as "woo" or vehemently insist that there is no God/Higher Power simply because there isn't enough "proof" for THEM (and you know, there never will be enough proof).

I can guess which group you're talking about. One of them likes to stalk me around DU & post crap responses....she's a vindictive bully who attacks others "just because", then plays the victim card, posting GBCW stuff when people wise up to her, then sneaks back to DU. God I hate that shit.

But I like this group. I will admit, some of the stuff posted here sounds "far out" to me, but if it works for the people who post it, who am I to argue? I've got enough weird ideas of my own (like the little people hiding stuff from me until I ask the cats where it is....I guess they're scared of the cats or something.....)

eta: I remember about 2 years ago, the History Channel had a program on the Shroud of Turin. Someone posted about it in GD or the Lounge (which is how I found out about it) & asked if anyone else was going to watch it because they wanted to discuss it & see if the science & methods used held up. (I think it was called "The Face of Jesus" or something like that.)

O.M.F.G. you would not believe the flamewar that erupted over that! Just the *idea* that people wanted to *discuss* the Shroud (not advocate that it is what it is claimed to be or isn't, just discuss the findings, which were pretty amazing) was too much for that crowd. Unfortunately, in the end, no one was able to discuss what we saw at all, thanks to the narrow-minded "scientific" crowd.

between this group and those "counter" to us. They say the same in their TOS/SOP or whatever alphabet-soup acronym it's called, but it comes across as nothing more than lip-service. It's there because it's required to be there, not because they have to adhere to its principles.

I'm sorry that you have one of them stalking you
I can only think of one instance where that happened here, and their post was deleted before I had a chance to see it (I was followed back here from a Lounge thread, again on the topic of "wu".)

I readily admit that some of the stuff in which I believe is not only "out there" but downright bizarre! At the same time, I have no trouble analyzing it and laughing at myself (or with myself?) I am also "using" this wealth of weirdness in our world as fodder for story ideas, or plot points in my stories. They don't get mocked, but they do get 'twisted' in ways to make them either good or bad or whatever. The majority of the reading public hasn't heard of much of the stuff we read, so I can introduce them to all these bizarro things without doing do in a mocking manner. I'll probably buy all of Delores Cannon's books soon so I have a literal encyclopedia of weirdness to use in fictional settings

I will tell you that if I had been in on that Shroud discussion I'd likely have announced that all those wishing to fight would go on ignore so as to whittle down the thread to only those willing to have an actual discussion versus a fight. That's really about the only way to have a discussion anymore. Without looking up the full dictionary and etymological definition of "discussion" my personal definition is that when people have a discussion, two or more people walk away from it having learned something. Whereas my definition of "discussion" on DU is it's all about winning the debate. The point is pointless and moot

For some, no amount of evidence one way or another will ever be enough. It's as rigid and crazy-making as what birthers believe.

I know whereof you speak K, and after my initial flare of anger over their derision and mockery, I just find the whole thing (the groups, the "attack pack" who cruise larger forums like Religion and Health, the attitudes, the personalities, the focus on hating others) immensely sad.

Fear underlies it all--fear of not having all the answers, fear that what they've believed in all their lives might not be the whole truth, fear of being (omg omg omg) WRONG. They desire control in all aspect of their lives, and when they don't have it (imagine, someone out there might think differently!) they lash out and try to control them, when instead they should be trying to figure out why someone else's differing opinion bothers them so much.

It is very ironic that members of DU (these people in question included) pride themselves on being open-minded and tolerant liberals. I don't think these folks would like anyone to point out that they have more in common with the conservatives they hate so very much than they'd like to admit!

What also makes me sad is that certain groups hang together on the slimmest of premises--hatred of others. I'm glad our little corner of the world is more supportive.

and titled (I think) "Do you ever get the feeling that you're being watched?" with some rofl smileys in the body. Of course, I misinterpreted it to mean being watched by our cats, and not other DU groups until I read more

Nothing has changed in the years between, and I don't really expect them to change after this. I'll likely ruffle some feathers, but so far, no PMs from the "offended".

I was thinking about their use of the evangelical phrase I mentioned above that they've commandeered to "Attack the belief, not the believer." As I have observed their posts and reactions over the years, they are no more accepting of the actual phrase "Hate the sin, not the sinner" than they are of all the vitriol lobbed against them for being unbelievers. They seem to be of the mindset that you can actually detach the ideology from a person without all that vitriol of their own not affecting the believer. There is no "fine line" between the two. The beliefs of a believer are as attached to that person as the mind is attached to the brain. And they either don't get that part, or willfully dismiss it in order to have the "right" to attack a belief without consequences. Not gonna happen

That those people will be the very first in line for me to read their charts.

I never would have guessed that from their comments. It's cool, though

I don't know what that means. I was an Episcopalian, anyway

because you know how the Baptist rail on & on about the evils of drinking & dancing & gambling....

well there are still some places that sell booze & lottery tickets out the back door of the establishment to those who publicly rant against such things.

Hence, back-door Baptists

I've probably heard the expression over the years and still never knew what it meant. We have good friends of the family that were Baptists, so I doubt the phrase was ever mentioned in my family.

It's old, maybe you've heard it.

"Know why Baptists don't Do IT standing up?"

They don't want anyone to think they're dancing!" rim shot.


(****I heard that while growing up in Tejas)

We were occasional Methodists.

I had (have) Baptist cousins who prepped the new school I was going to attend in the fall by telling them I was 'a heathen' and a sinner before my 17 year-old self even moved to town. I was allowed to dance, you see, and swim in the public swimming pool while wearing a swimsuit so right there I broke the rules for 'unseemly shaking of the limbs' and 'mixed bathing.' I did fine in the school after everyone got to meet me in person but this is true: while I was doing my unrepentant 'sinning', my Baptist cousins who were sent off to summer church camp all came back (not all in the same year) knocked up!

and a Pentecostal manager (man) would stand in front of the aisle and preach against it as a sin while he still sold it in the store he managed. I simply call this type of man a hypocrite. This was in southern Illonios.


So, back on the subject of back door Baptists. I hope they can iron this out because my little sister is a Baptist and I sure do hope well for her!

about astrology; and that really blows their mind. But, they HAVE to have their chart read.
I just laugh

Not arguing when someone wants to so badly is a mighty fine secret weapon.

I bet they are so blown away by your spot- on- ness, but won't acknowledge the truth.

they know or sense when they're hearing the "truth" or are close to defining their archetypal nature; plus remember, everyone, (nearly) likes to talk about themselves. ha ha.

used to love to prey on yours truly, but I have watched my personal evolution in regards to their slim thinking and their habits of stalking and I have gone from pissed off,pissed on, swearing that most of them were Big Pharma shills paid to smash opposing opinions, to mild irritation to sympathy to empathy.I have been quite proud of my ability to move past their small thinking and go to a higher place. Once in a blue moon I will go to glance at their thread titles, to see how they are framing things. I agree with all of your points. They have some serious control issues, and love their science snobbery.

When I found you guys, you became not just a haven of kind folks, but a place like home.
Thank You. I appreciate ALL of you!: grouphug:

I'm glad you're not being stalked anymore and that you did learn to just "let it go". It's a concept we all strive for, and learn in some form or another. ASAH is certainly a group to help us all learn such lessons

And your term "science snobbery" hits home, too. I don't know how many times I've seen them bemoan the state of science and math education in this country, and that's fine. I agree it should be stronger.

However, the moment one of us tries to talk about some bit of science we've either read about or seen on TV, woe be to us if we use a single scientific term in the "wrong" way. There's never any real attempt at educating, either, as in "calmly, with the intent to educate as a teacher or instructor would." All too often, it seems to be "you're an idiot for even having a point of view about a subject of science without being a Scientist." Right.

They need to figure out whether they want people to try to understand and learn about science, or that they don't want it. Can't have it both ways, y'all

because the Ancients said that moon shone light instead of reflecting it. I said I thought he was asking too much from a pre-literate, nomadic culture, expecting them to "know" scientific concepts that weren't discovered for thousands of years, but, nah. I was an idiot for believing in God.

This in a post by an atheist asking how those of us who believe in God & post on DU reconcile Genesis with Evolution.

Wouldnt intelligent design reconcile genisis with evolution????

but the way my parents taught me was that Genesis was the "why" & Evolution was the "how." Makes sense to me, especially since many other cultures have similar creation stories. To me, this suggests that we all came out of one group (further backed up by all the research into human DNA & the identifying of an Adam & Eve--very interesting stuff; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam)

Spot on with that assessment.

True teachers or lovers of any subject would be glad to educate without judgement for the uneducated.

They spend far too much time being contrary for contrary's sake!

Kimmers! Love ya. And to those with that problem... BAZINGA!

I saw that episode with the ...spock/lizard rock paper scissors bit for the first time the other day!

It's really hard for somebody to comprehend the kind of stuff we're talking about if they have never experienced it.

It's even been hard for me at times, and I've been open to this type of thing for as long as I can remember.

Some of you will remember when my cat Bitsey crossed over and then three weeks later, one of us (Cleita) saw her in some photographs I posted here. I posted the photographs because we were talking northeaster' weather or some such thing, but there she was. It wasn't just in one photograph, either. She appeared in many photographs, probably as many as around 14.

Now, looking back on that, I remember thinking how the experience of "seeing" a ghost (and one who was photographed, no less) was one thing and just believing in it intellectually is quite another.

Now, think of where they're coming from. They don't even believe in ghosts intellectually. It's not hard to see why they don't get it at all, not even close.


Cher

That's the easy part

But what I don't get is why they have this inherent need to be mean? What do they get out of that? Some simple self-satisfaction that they hurt someone's feelings? Do they actually like being seen as bullies? (We know they would never admit to being bullies, much less using the same tactics.)

Of course, I'm not saying they all are like this. As I stated above, it seems to only be DU atheists that act this way, with a select few that don't and I actually call friends. All of the atheists I've known in "real life" were nice people, and never out to deride or belittle my beliefs. They often wanted do know what I believed, and I'd tell them, but I'd also say that I didn't expect them to believe a word of it. They are my beliefs, and not those of anyone else. I expect them to be perceived as weird, and I'm fine with that. But, I refuse to engage with anyone that feels the need to take them apart, with little respect for how it makes me feel. They won't get that satisfaction from me

In general I believe some people bully and or ridicule others in order to make themselves feel more important
than they are either in their own eyes or the eyes of their misguided friends. It may be pure immaturity and
hopefully they will grow out of it. Sad is the person who never does.

From Right Speech by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

Right speech, explained in negative terms, means avoiding four types of harmful speech: lies (words spoken with the intent of misrepresenting the truth); divisive speech (spoken with the intent of creating rifts between people); harsh speech (spoken with the intent of hurting another person's feelings); and idle chatter (spoken with no purposeful intent at all).


Our society is full of harmful speech,competitive and humiliating TV shows, angry speech, bullying, putdowns, etc.:

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

I'm going to have to do some reading. I know so very little about Buddhism and the idea of Right Speech is intriguing. It's also an excellent concept to have for governing one's interaction with people. It may not help with the stubborn (as I'm sure you're well aware living in East Texas) but all you can do is try, and hope they learn by osmosis

I'm working on it.

And I make no claim to understanding Buddhism. The basic stuff like the Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path are pretty easy to understand. But there is more and more stuff in the scriptures that is deep. There is nothing that says outright "This is what the Truth (dharma) is."

I've seen two threads in Religion directly related to threads here. The one on Trayvon, and this one, and both of them are the epitome of derision for ideas contrary to their own.

Sending more Light and Love to our watchers!

watchers.

Now you have gone and done it!!!!
You have fed that posters delusion that people actually read and are interested in their posts!!!! LOL!

And I love Rick's method of talking about this stuff, yet never, ever engaging them in the discussion, since that's exactly what they want. Withholding participation aggravates them even more

Yep! Thats our Rick a smart slippery one!

I've been thinking about attitudes that hurt progressive goals, and the "thought police" attitude is certainly one of them. Where all dialogue must be controlled by those who nominate themselves as the keepers of truth. The weapons are humiliation and belittling. I have to admit to being someone who gets more than a little huffy about horrible rw attitudes and attacks, but the "know-it-all" left has left a nice breeding ground for the rw to recruit sometimes.

There has to always be someone to attack, so when you are on a site where people share so many political thoughts in common, there has to be a way to further "purify" the product. Over here in ASAH, we are very impure, we don't follow many thinking rules, we really need to be lined up.

We aren't the only recipients though, I saw a thread the other day talking about how insane a group of people who were part of a Christian meditation group on FB were because they read the daily meditation as a source of inspiration. That was a bit much for me, I don't care if those folks are Fundamentalists, left-wing Christians, or what; making fun of someone and calling their sanity into question for THAT is the kind of thing that is so pointless, baseless, and mean-spirited that it can only detract from ideals progressives say they want to fight for.

It's sad, really.

How can you respect anyone who laughs at others based on their own ignorance? One of the reasons why I was drawn to DU was because the members seemed so evolved. That was solidified when I found this group. The nastiness on other forum is a problem to the people who spend time on it, not to me. If they think they're smarter and better than me, that's their right.

I'm always just amazed how some people think people's beliefs have to be proven before they will accept the concept. I say they need to prove it doesn't exist until I believe it doesn't. Until then, what makes these people so positive it doesn't exist? Reminds me of a debate about the world being flat.