"A group for Christians and Christian-friendly persons who would like to have an open discussion about our faith and its role in the world around us. Our group will provide a safe haven for discussion and support, and find ways to express our beliefs in positive, non-threatening ways."

by someone who is quite delusional.

NT

I have been mightily disappointed.

In one church a man threatened to kill a woman.
In another church the whole sermon was a rant about politics, a bad one.
In another church small children were told that God says it is okay if parents kill their children.

and in the many ways that humans search for the Creator. But when dealing with humans, I do not expect to find perfection, and I am never disappointed.

If any expect perfection, they will always be disappointed.

I lost my faith in the 80s when the "moral majority" came on the scene.

Find the good, and there is so much good to find, while understanding that there is also violence and greed.

But I understand, and hope that others understand, that this is my personal view.

What would you expect a creator to look like?

what the creator looks like, since you expect us non-theists to know. Did you use a mirror or something to see it?

Or not. I can only describe my own journey.

"if they have no idea what the Creator looks like, or what form the Creator takes, they have no idea how to look, or what to look for."
Since you cant give us an idea of what the Creator looks like or what form it takes and you have seen it multiple times I have to assume you have no idea of how to look or what to look for.

And apparently has hallucinations.

That since since we cant see this invisible dude that you claim to have found and cant describe what he looks like we don't even know what we are looking for. That point?

And what makes you think that you would know what to look for in the search for the Creator?

goes right back at you? How do you know you found the creator? What makes you think that you would know what to look for?

And you? Where did you look, and what did you look for?

faith:strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof
I looked everywhere and found no proof at all.

"And you? Where did you look, and what did you look for?"
This was my response. "I looked everywhere and found no proof at all. "
And this is your answer. "Looking for proof is to misunderstand faith."

I wasn't looking for faith, I was looking for the creator.

But faith is a belief without proof.

Some believe that there are no gods, also without proof, because the matter is unprovable.

with no proof, because why?

Not. Do I believe humans experience emotion? Yes. This has been studied, recorded, even caused on purpose to see the results. There is proof that humans experience emotions, including love.

There is proof that humans react to certain stimuli.

and possibly animals experience.

that love someone even when the majority religion will ostracize, cast out, make laws against and even kill them for it. Can it be self interest, sure, does it have to be, absolutely not.

You cannot prove to another that what you feel for another is either one or the other. But if you say that you love someone I would take it on faith that you are speaking truly.

especially if you face death for it.

Sacrificing one for the group in order that the group continues.

Unless group and self mean the same thing.

Wow, surprised I have to argue this basic difference in a definition. Group= many, self=one. Get a grip buddy.

Speaking of basic. And the concept of sacrificing for group survival is common to non-human animals as well.

One example:

At this point you are making arguments that no one except yourself is bringing up. For no reason at all. Its almost as if you are reaching for something that you cant quite get. Whatever, its predictable.

but that is all.

between group and self and you equate them as the same is absolutely amazing. Even I am surprised as to the lengths you will go to try to prove your views.

ever heard of a love-hate relationship?

But proving that emotion exists is another matter. Perhaps we are merely reacting to outside stimuli.

For pretty much the entire populace bar a few people. It's observable, testable, its a fact that humans experience emotion. Are you arguing they don't exist? Now proving love is love, since it is a personal thing, is impossible, I never said that. I just said that love is an emotion and they exist. People can have all kinds of crazy emotions, like think something is there when it is not, that doesnt make the emotion false just the premise that something is there is false. The emotion, since it is a feeling, is true as a feeling, the love itself may not be true as is shown by people getting divorced.

But can we measure love, and differentiate between love and self-interest?

lets try again.
Love is an emotion.
Emotions are observable, testable.
Emotions exist.
Does that mean that love is real?
As far as it being an emotion yes.
Does that mean love is real?
No, it is an emotion. An emotion is a feeling, nothing more, nothing less.
I feel like you might be closed off to anything that threatens your beliefs.
Is that real?
No.
Its what I feel.
And that would be another emotion.

But proving that a reaction is based on one feeling or another is not.

When people report the same emotion they display the same features, their faces react the same way. Their glands and temperature react the same way, they react in the same general way. The reactions are provable to the described emotion.

else simulates emotion, like actors in the Truman Show? Where is your proof, or have you taken a leap of faith?

But millions who profess to see god are not. lol.

it is not much if you are like the rest of us. We take a leap to trust our sources of information and our own senses.

Science is my proof, that thing that stops your car when you hit the brakes, heats and cools your home, treats you when you are sick, runs power plants, I could keep going.

scientific measurements, or do you place your faith in scientists and those who report the science?

I took a wheel, mounted it to my workbench, spun it, applied something abrasive like sandpaper to the side of the wheel, and it slowed down!!!! If I pressed harder it would just stop!!!! It was amazing!!!!.

in all aspects of science? Let's talk about quantum physics or astrophysics. Did you carry out your own observations and develop your own theories, or do you believe in things based on what the scientific community have to say?

and so can you.

checked the temperature in the house, it was at 62, an hour after running the heater it was at 71. Hard to believe isnt it? I can take some pics for you if you require them.

I suggest that if you think you know, it could only be based on a leap of faith to believe the sources of information that you use.

You didn't ask me how the wheel was made or the sandpaper, I can educate you if you like but be specific on which one please.

should we start with elementary grade science, high school science, or,,,,,,Im thinking if I need to explain where propane comes from maybe elementary.

faith into believing what you are told.

propane related accessories since that seems to be a problem for you. It might be a hill you can climb.

Propane is a three-carbon alkane with the molecular formula C3H8. It is a gas at standard temperature and pressure, but compressible to a transportable liquid. A by-product of natural gas processing and petroleum refining, it is commonly used as a fuel. Propane is one of a group of liquefied petroleum gases (LP gases). The others include butane, propylene, butadiene, butylene, isobutylene, and mixtures thereof.

Propane was discovered by the French chemist Marcellin Berthelot in 1857.[5] It was first identified as a volatile component in gasoline by Walter O. Snelling of the U.S. Bureau of Mines in 1910. Although the compound was known long before this, Snelling's work was the beginning of the propane industry in the United States. The volatility of these lighter hydrocarbons caused them to be known as "wild" because of the high vapor pressures of unrefined gasoline. On March 31, the New York Times reported on Snelling's work with liquefied gas, saying "a steel bottle will carry enough gas to light an ordinary home for three weeks".

The burning of propane is a combustion reaction because a molecule that consists of Carbon and Hydrogen react with oxygen and the products are carbon dioxide and water.
The Ration and why it is important
The ratio for this chemical reaction is 1 mole of propane reacts with 5 moles of oxygen which are the reactants and they produce 4 moles of water, 3 moles of carbon dioxide and energy as products.

without putting your belief in what others have said.

"Propane is produced as a by-product of two other processes, natural gas processing and petroleum refining. The processing of natural gas involves removal of butane, propane, and large amounts of ethane from the raw gas, in order to prevent condensation of these volatiles in natural gas pipelines. Additionally, oil refineries produce some propane as a by-product of cracking petroleum into gasoline or heating oil."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane
As for your second question, no, I have never made it myself, it would be illegal unless I was a School or a business. I understand the science behind it, science that has been checked what? Billions of times? Trillions? More? How to make it has a patent! When you patent how to make something it is continually checked by scientist across the world and if found to be true used as a stepping stone to prove other things, So if someone were to patent propane.2, they would have to first confirm the making of propane then converting it into propane .2. The new patent, and the old patent including all science would have to confirmed by repeatable, record able, testable, beyond all of a reasonable doubt true, science. There would be mountains of proof, that anyone could check running the same experiment over and over, and get the same results. If 100 people go to a church, what percentage are going to find god? Maybe 30% or less?, Lets be way generous, 60%? What percentage of people that do the experiment correctly in a proven scientific experiment get the right answer? at least 99.99%. No contest bro.

understanding of science doesn't take any kind of leap of faith. What does that tell us?

Propane is extracted from liquid components during natural gas processing. To remove propane from natural gas, hydrocarbons are fractionated and absorbed in oil, which is followed by adsorption to surface-active agents or refrigeration. Hydrocarbons such as butane and propane are removed from natural gas in part to prevent condensation in natural gas pipelines. Unprocessed natural gas consists of about 90 percent methane and only 5 percent propane, but about half of the propane used in the United States comes from natural gas processing. Propane is 270 times denser as a liquid than as a gas, and therefore the extracted propane is stored and transported as a liquid. Because propane is colorless and odorless, an odorant is added for detection.
https://sciencing.com/how-propane-made-4909713.html

Propane is a naturally occurring gas composed of three carbon atoms and eight hydrogen atoms. It is created along with a variety of other hydrocarbons (such as crude oil, butane, and gasoline) by the decomposition and reaction of organic matter over long periods of time.

Read more: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-3/Propane.html#ixzz5BeNmk4iU

Propane is an energy-rich gas, C3H8. It is one of the liquefied petroleum gases (LP-gases or LPGs) that are found mixed with natural gas and oil. Propane and other liquefied gases, including ethane and butane, are separated from natural gas at natural gas processing plants, or from crude oil at refineries. The amount of propane produced from natural gas and from oil is roughly equal.

Propane naturally occurs as a gas. However, at higher pressure or lower temperatures, it becomes a liquid. Because propane is 270 times more compact as a liquid than as a gas, it is transported and stored in its liquid state. Propane becomes a gas again when a valve is opened to release it from its pressurized container. When returned to normal pressure, propane becomes a gas so that we can use it.
https://www.eia.gov/KIDS/energy.cfm?page=propane_home
Its an explanation for kids, lol.

Please let me know so I can enlighten you if needed.

Some believe that there is no Easter bunny, also without proof, because the matter is unprovable.

And know it to be a real thing and not an human construct?

The one I see is made of chocolate.

the 1600's?

cannot see an image by looking, it does not mean that another man cannot see it. If we cannot see it, we could try looking at it in a different way, or we could try to imagine what those who see it see.

If you cant see that then you should just send me $100 because obviously you are blind to it in some way and once you do it might become clear to you. PM me for the address!. Thanks!

But it has for so many people maybe it will for me also. I will call myself Eko Graham!!

You do realize its a human made thing right?
And although Magic Eye puzzles were all the rage some 25 years ago, the idea has been used by scientists for decades to study depth perception.

There is that science thing again.
Here is the science behind it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3867880/Can-shark-Researchers-reveal-magic-eye-illusions-work-not-hidden-3D-images.html

person that you can see but cant describe, that you cant tell us anything really about, do you see them often? Have a seat, be comfortable, this session will take a while.

so big he cannot lift it?" Answer after 40 years of thought...God is the rock too...courtesy of the theory of Non Duality, or the Unity Principle espoused by Emerson...when you see two you see falsely.

anywhere out there...you are simply part of Creation.

So, by this position, to deny the Creator is to deny oneself.

Then go looking for it. Rather than asking a more basic question, such as, Is it possible there is a Creator?

humans often prefer a fear based and exclusionary religion. Part of tribalism, a survival mechanism. What the Creator prefers is another matter.

unless something existed apart from creation. No matter how many variables that that are used to explain away the existence of a creator at the end of the day something had to exist apart from creation. I don't get why there is so many hostile comments toward the op in a group that clearly states it's purpose is for Christians and Christian friendly members.

but I think there is curiosity also.

Doesn’t mean it would be a divine being. Maybe it’s a computer program.

More logical to believe in a divine intelligent creator than an unconscious entity generating everything at random in my opinion.

There may always (probably) be an answer that does not require divinity.

in fact the creator created beings with the capacity to study science. Like a scientist or tech creating an artificial intelligence like a computer program to do whatever it does.

I hope you find what you believe.

Either way, it’s a strange great trip. ☮️