Thy saying such things about less common or less Western religions and see what it gets you.

It makes me dread logging in sometimes.

I actually did alert, before seeing this thread, using the SOP as an objection. The GD SOP clearly does not permit threads about religion. I have not gotten any notice that it had been alerted on before and what the jury decision may have been.

the thread is still running strong. There are responses from this afternoon.

I'm retired from active politics (not old, just had my fill of it). I've organized, run for office, helped other people run for office, served as a Ward Chairman, the whole bit. It can suck the life out of you.

Here's the thing. As Democrats and Progressives, we want to win elections. For the life of me, I can't understand why some Democrats and Progressives feel the need to gratuitously insult Democratic and Progressive Christians. When you're trying to win an election, you need a majority and you really don't care a flying fig where that majority comes from -- you build coalitions wherever you can find them.

I'm a Pro-Choice and Pro-Gay Marriage. I'm Pro-Environment and Pro-Peace. Yet because I'm a Christian, rather than courting my vote some on this website feel empowered to insult me. With no provocation from me -- I believe that the Holy Spirit is better at proselytizing than I'll ever be, so I generally keep my comments to myself.

I remind myself that DU is not the real world. In real life, the overwhelming majority of non-believers I know are polite and respectful, and maybe some of the same flamethrowers on this board are polite and respectful in person. The internet and its promise of anonymity can do that to a person.

" For the life of me, I can't understand why some Democrats and Progressives feel the need to gratuitously insult Democratic and Progressive Christians."

A lot of what I'm reading looks more like "let's act like stereotypes" than "let's talk like Democrats." My 'favorite' threads today: SUV drivers suck & Christians suck. Where do these people come from?

but they are quite vocal. Not fun to deal with sometimes.

that doesn't sound like a small group

A poll taken here several months ago established that a majority of respondents were atheist. That doesn't mean all DUers are, but it certainly would indicate that there's a pretty sizable bloc. More to the point, many are what I would call not just atheist but antitheist, with Christianity the main target for their scorn.

It should be kept in mind that, for many who do not come from a religious background, "Christianity" generally means the fundamentalists and the "Religious Right" who are overrepresented in the media and carry political clout that most mainstream denominations don't. (This is a fact that many of us of "boomer" age fail to understand, coming as we do from a time when Christian leaders were active in the anti-Vietnam and civil rights movements.) And the fact is that, however many of our own denominations/parishes are explicitly inclusive and welcoming, a majority of U.S. Christianity is still anti-gay and, worse, pushes for laws that institutionalize discrimination. Still, I doubt that many of these antitheists would understand my counter-claim that, were I not a Christian, I would most likely have no choice but to become a libertarian conservative -- because, in the absence of a God (and particularly the God revealed in my faith), I would have to conclude that Social Darwinist "survival of the fittest" was the essential natural law, and that those "inferior" examples of the human race (the poor, the sick, the vulnerable, etc.) should die off as quickly as possible so that the race as a whole could progress. It is only by my understanding of God as revealed in scripture and, above all, in Christ that causes me to hold to a higher code of human conduct than merely standing aside and letting "natural selection" take its course.

I took one thing away from there that still tickles my funny bone.

THEY (the right wing fanatics who use God and the Bible as an excuse to persecute others) are ONLY the "right wing".
WE (rational Christians who will share our faith, but mostly are busy keeping our own noses clean) ARE THE REST OF THE BIRD.


I've also met a lot of good NON-Christian people who live the Christian values I believe in because they believe in humanitarianism or social justice or any other terminology that works. What I have heard from even-tempered atheists is that it galls them to be told that having a moral compass is a "Christian" thing because they view morals as seperate from the package that we have in our faith. It's where I got MINE, but hey, it isn't something we own and when I concede that specific point, I can get to the stuff we can agree about.

I feel like a lot of the things that we Christians learned in the Eccumenical Movement are helpful here. Even Christians disagree on so many points and have had to learn to relate to one another with out judging the person by the whole theology of that person's Church.

I was raised Catholic, but was stridently against priests and bishops telling people from the pulpit that if they voted for John Kerry it was a sin and they couldn't take communion. I think seperation of Church and State protects both.

Tig

it's a small group.

This is a safe haven. No arguments are allowed. We can respectfully disagree in this group but all conversations must be civil.

Feel free to take off your shoes, kick up your feet, and grab a glass of sweet tea.

That's glory for you (by "glory", I mean a nice, knock down argument).

I am pleased to find a place where liberal Christians are welcomed.

but always have a pitcher of it in the fridge for guests at home. I also have a pitcher of unsweet sun tea on the counter, with some lemon slices in the fridge for myself and my kid. You're welcome to some of that too.

Now make yourself at home here in this forum. As long as you use your manners you'll be safe.

As a Christian, you can help them move from hurting to healing to helping others and self to see things more clearly. Not because you have any special site or talent that non-Christians don't but because God is there for US with His infinite patience to allow US to weather shit storms others would walk away from.

After the storm, after people have gotten their terrible hurtful words off their chests and someone can still give them a kind word, that shows them the kind of Christian that makes a difference.

It's learning to not let all that crap congeal on US that is the trick and filling up where you can. Days or weeks can go by and I'll just leave those threads alone. No need to get myself all riled up. Don't watch FAUX news either.

Tig

non-believers are going to act like non-believers, say awful things about Christianity....but then you have conservative believers acting like non-believers.....saying things that go directly against Christianity....

I starting following this group because I am a Christian liberal, which makes me pretty darn lonesome many times. I guess I didn't get so upset by the thread you are all very unhappy about, but I'm guessing that's because I am constantly surrounded by right-wing Christians.

They are in my home church (UCC, I might add), making very sure we don't become open and affirming anytime soon. The conservative members of the congregation have driven out TWO clergy members who made the mistake of being remotely progressive, and they weren't exactly "Christ-like" in their zeal to have these men removed.

Members of the local megachurches decide what can be taught in our public schools (no evolution) and what can be read (no Harry Potter). My daughter was told she could not join the fellowship of Christian athletes because as a member of the UCC, she wasn't a Christian. Both of my children were told they were going to hell for reading John Stewart and having non-Christian friends. As young adults, they have stopped attending worship because they can't find anything for their age group that isn't right wing.

Yes, I know there are lots of cranky and obnoxious atheists at DU, but there are also many of us who are surrounded by psychopath Christians. Where I live they have the numbers and are more than happy to abuse their power anytime they can. This baby boomer grew up in a faith that focused on Christ's teachings, so I am saddened by the direction of Christianity in the U.S. over the past 30 years.

The state is overrun with RW-types here-Springfield is the international headquarters for the Assemblies of God.

What my problem here at DU is that even though they know that there are Christians who post here, know that there are Christians involved in activism in a number of causes dear to their hearts around here, they still tend to have pile-ons. This thread was a mild thread, except for how many rec'd it.

I've been a member of DU for quite a few years and I know that this behavior is allowed. Not only that, but when reported nothing happens. I've made mention a time or two that I'm a Christian and have had posters on here accost me, demanding to know exactly why I "stupidly believe in a sky person". In the past, I've even had a few inform me that I didn't belong here at DU. (One of the posters who attacked me regularly is no longer here-tombstoned, though it wasn't over those attacks.)

The point is, sometimes the posts go too far. People take it too far and don't seem to care that there are members of the group that they make fun of who are long time posters here on DU. And the admins really don't do anything about it.

I understand now. I pick and choose which threads I read, and if the discussions get too nuts, I stop reading.

Don't know where I saw a post from this group, but thought it would be good to add to my subscriptions. A place where progressive people of faith chat sounds lovely to me!

Discussions are wanted, differences are encouraged, but courtesy is required. Anyone from any faith can post but discussions must be free of name calling and derogatory comments.

Feel free to take off your shoes and prop your feet up!

Your post is quite alarming to me.

Are you in Texas by any chance??

Tig

relate to the things you are saying. It seems that all my friends are Republican...church and outside of church. Many in our church know that my husband and I are not Republican....we are friends with many of them on FB, and some will once in a while share a poster/comment with a Republican message....such as "Gregg Abbot wants to keep Obamacare out of Texas" and they "like" and "share" his sentiment. I used to not want to offend and would refrain from posting political articles, but more and more I'm beginning to do the same. Just recently I shared a picture of some protestors carrying a sign that said "Brown-skinned man helping others and providing free health care - that's not Obama, that was Jesus".....I usually don't get any "likes" from any of them on those articles. Our preacher never strays into political areas....and has often said that we are not to put our faith in our politicians but in Jesus, however, we have other assistant preachers and one of them loves to get really close to the edge of republican propaganda. It is really annoying and sometimes I feel like God has put me in that situation to test me......it would be so much easier to just join them, but I just can't accept their ideology. I've even prayed and asked God if I'm in the wrong party and have never gotten even a hint that I might be. My husband used to be Republican when we got married 39 years ago....and early on we didn't even argue about it, we laughed and told each other we would cancel each other when we voted....then about 15 years ago he started sounding more and more like a Democrat and now he's an even stronger one than me. He writes very strong letters to the newspaper, and is not afraid to challenge our Republican friends when they bring politics up...I'm a little more reserved and would rather not even discuss it. I've gotten to the point where liberals commenting against Christianity doesn't bother me....I realize they don't believe and bashing them is not going to get them to believe...but I don't compromise my beliefs and will defend Christianity if confronted. I have a bigger problem with conservative Christians who make excuses for their party in areas where clearly their position is not Christian.

A vast majority of Americans identify as I do--a Christian.

Already, the "liberal elite" is Conservative code for "those people who ridicule our faith."

Unfortunately, there is some truth to that view. You notice that Obama has warned the liberal politicos that they demean the Christian majority at their own peril, and he of course strongly proclaims his Christian faith.

compared to how many people are registered here at DU. The problem is that this group is always very vocal.

As to the actual alienation, it's definitely a possibility. On a basic level who wants to be a member of a group that ridicules their most fundamental beliefs? I am very liberal and a Christian, but there are days that I log in here at DU and then log immediately out. I've been ridiculed here on more than one occasion and it's been allowed to stand, sometimes to the point of me thinking about leaving.

Last I checked, we were supposed to be the party of the big tent. I believe that some have forgotten that.

My second thread here at DU was about alienating Lutherans. I'm still a newbie.

Each day I get a little Bible quote in my email, the poetic coincidence of todays:

In 1st Cor. 4: 12-13:
"when reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we speak kindly."

I KNOW what has carried me, through about everything in the words of "Amazing Grace", there is no way without this Faith- that has finally grown into Trust, I would have endured.
It just is what it is. As silly as it may be, naive??, I take for granted that everyone has those "epiphanies". IF you've never been where there were NO options, no other ways to respond, act or re-act....

For a long time it used to irritate me that while I know I am a Christian, the way I understand and attempt to live is a direct opposite of the Conservative Christian Right, it didn't seem fair that as sure as I am about who and what I believe, its like a whole different religious concept. Coming to DU has done something more powerful, it has shown the impacts of what the CCR has done to the potentials and more important the relevance of Faith.

If someone has a response to their fundie friends who seems to like to punish those who do not accept the vile, the condemnations and the rediculous allegations-please share it.
The best I can do is sit there without rolling my eyes like a teenager's response, and settle on saying: You know we have been warned about false teachers?

Aye, it IS the narrow gate! Dunno if I can actually enter through it, but it won't be for lack of trying eh?

First, we Christians as a whole (not us individually) waded into the political fray in the late 60s and have gotten progressively deeper into this basest of all incivilities from then until this day. The other religions haven't taken that road here in the USofA. So, when you wallow around publicly in the squallor, then you are bound to invite some mud being slung your way. It just goes with the cesspool called American politics.

Second, though we are all politically woven together as Democrats, it does not automatically mean that we are all nice and gentle beings. I can't tell you the number of times I have been insulted and verbally assaulted over nothing but an opinion. It's discouraging and sometimes I have to wonder what kind of person I'm conversing with. You know how it is with internet bullies and the like. So there are people who will treat you unkindly over more than religion. I'm a southerner originally and you must know how many threads demean southern politicians. But I don't jump into the middle of such threads defending the southern heritage because I know that our southern conservative politicians do stink to high heaven. So I don't take it as a personal insult like so many do.

Most of the time I simply read things of interest and ignore those topics which I know are poisonous, like demeaning religious belief or demeaning regions. I know enough from experience that there are crossfires everywhere wherein innocent people get maligned and they shouldn't.

Personally I would take it that the anger is directed at those who "claim" to be Christian and follow the rethug propaganda. I'm as mad at those folks as Jesus was at so many hypocritical Pharisees. Those who have THE Book in hand and still spit out hatred and call it God's work.

I've often waded into threads like that and simply stood my non-judgmental ground and have been told, "Well, not Christians like YOU."

I get weary of it and I am so sad that people have been turned off to "real" Christianity by those who use religion as a weapon or coercion to follow the "sheeple way".

I was once told to go play with my "imaginary playmate" (God). DID find that very offensive.

I'm devoted much more to God and Christ specifically than to any particular religious affiliation. I actually switched to a Church that I find less judgmental and has more of an activist leaning. I feel so at home there, that there are times I just cry with joy and wish I'd followed that path originally. I grew up in a wonderful church, but it was kind of unique for its denomination.

SO the situation in general has made me question where my faith lines up with the teachings and actions of Christ, and led me to worry less about the other aspects of being a religious person. However, that has always been one of my core beliefs anyway. I've also always believed in leading people to God by example, not by banging them over the head with Bible passages.

Tog

and the antics of the Right to Lifers, it is not unreasonable that "religion" has assumed a bad name with those who do not profess to any particular belief system.
People of faith, and I mean of a professed "religion", need to keep there own house clean and call out the hypocrisy and nonsense committed in the name of "religion".
Same is true for Republican's who will not stand up to the bat shit crazy tea baggers among them.

Christians who would come to DU believe in Peace and Justice and Tolerance up to a point, but being singled out and slammed for one's association with a particular faith because religion is being mis-used by political entities gets pretty darn old after a while.

Specific examples need to link to specific individuals and not the entire Christian group as a whole. I think there is progress on that issue here on DU. Most people qualify their rants with "right wing" and attempt to exclude "good Christians" as a known exception and because this post is here at all, the Christians are tying to understand the other side as well.

But it isn't going to "trickle down" so if the Christians obligation is to keep our own house clean and call out hypocrisy, then what can we reasonably ask from the non-Christians who are throwing us in with the tea baggers etc... ??



Tig

I don't think the alert system is working well. In fact I thing it encourages immature behavior. DU currently has a level of intolerance unbecoming of Progressives and Democrats. The people you refer to who take every opportunity to bash other for their faith are no different from tea baggers in my opinion.

However, I think the alert system is more to deal with actual trolls and such, but it would be good to have a lot less bashing, that's for sure.

There has been a high level of tolerance for intolerance on DU for a long time. But I think here and there some victories happen as far as increasing understanding between DEMs of faith and who choose "none of the above" because the tone while still awful has improved over the years.

The far right has bashed the Bible over the heads of so many and so much venting goes on here because of that. We're the only Christians they can reasonably expect to stand up to them with reason instead of just fighting back against the attacks.

Tig

their

however, I realized that others have problems of prejudice with people's belief systems. I got tired of heare it from the RW, Xtian or not...so I'm letting my flag fly with the cross. No more hiding. If they have problems, that is because they don't know me. If they still have problems, those are their problems.

Because the anti-religious bigotry was simply too much for me. What really made it impossible was the policy that saying "your remark is bigoted" is considered worse than the original bigoted remark.

Perhaps if there is more discussion in this thread and the Religious forum, administration will notice the behaviour of people on both sides of the issue.

Was worse than the bigoted remark by the administrator of the Religion forum. The rationale is that saying "the primary purpose of religion is the subjugation of others" is an opinion, saying "that is atheistic bigotry" is a personal attack.

Because I know they're going to be a hate fest.

I did a alert on some one who had a cartoon with the saying. Shut the F Up Jesus. I said anyone would be offended by this 6 people in the jury said no I sound like I had a stroke and the usual Free Speech . I am thinking of leaving Underground. It is sad because I am a Florida Democrat and work hard for my party. I listen and respect others opinions but they do not respect ours. Just try saying you are a Pro Life Democrat and see what happends. I am glad I found this thread today.

Is that even quite vicious attacks on Christianity are acceptable on DU. I hate to find myself in agreement with Bill Donohue, the head of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, a man who has built a career on playing the victim card. However, when he makes noises such as saying that anti-Catholicism is "the last acceptable prejudice in America," I can't say he's wrong. Certainly, anti-Christianity and anti-religion in general are acceptable prejudices here.

What particularly irks me is, as I remarked before in this thread, denouncing blatant bigotry as blatant bigotry is not acceptable. Now, I will admit that I am sometimes intemperate in my denunciations. I will just misquote Barry Goldwater, "extremism in opposition to bigotry is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." My mother, whose parents died in Auschwitz, taught me to loathe bigotry of any sort. I learnt that lesson very well.

Last edited Fri Jan 24, 2014, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)

All the innocent Muslim lives that the Muslim terrorists kill with their suicide bombers and other devices are never questioned by those who take shots at Christians, here.

where many of the Atheists who rail against religion strangely single out Christianity. Like you said, they virtually never go after Muslims. Or Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other organized religion, really. It's almost always Christians who they target.

they sidestep the issue blaming it (some how) on the U. S. and it's policies. I can go on and on but this is just the tip of the iceberg on their denial of plain and obvious facts.

In the US, Christianity is by far and away the dominant religion.

Second place is atheists.

Islam isn't even a whole percentage point. So most of the issues we discuss here are colored by that worldview. DU has a very high percentage of users from the US.

When islam becomes the subject for various reasons, it is fairly discussed in the same context, is my observation.

exclusive purpose of bashing religion. I rarely see them anywhere else.

The haters are highly selective about WHICH religions they attack..

If called on it, they will say they hate all religion, but as NYC_Skip notes,

you will see NO ridicule of Islam OR Judaism... When, for instance,

have you seen any ridicule of Passover or any other Jewish holiday?...

Nah, the unwritten rule is that ONLY Christians/Christianity are to be mocked, derided

and verbally spit on -- Other religions?...Not so much.

What really pisses me off is the utter LACK of intervention by the administrators.

The DU directive to "respect the feelings of other members" is a JOKE in light of

the selective bigotry allowed on this board...You might call it "Hypocrisy writ large"

it gets locked (if it's the one I saw), not because it had turned into a hateful display that should embarrass the hell out of the admins, but because someone dared post something about Jesus...on Easter in public. Because as we all know, only threads that go after religion and religious people are allowed in GD.

because last I checked, it wasn't locked....I got "alerted" on for telling a poster who had been taunting me for awhile

-- i.e. " Looks like I hit a nerve" complete with smiley icon -- that "My nerve is in my brain, yours is stuck between

your legs"...Apparently that was too much for Mr. Sensitive so he decided to alert on me.

I got a 4 to 3 "Hide it"....It was encouraging that at least three people thought my remark, childish as it was

(I was getting sick of the taunts) thought it should stand, but, there you go.

I think DU has become a one-sided cesspool of bigotry toward Christians, and if

it needs be said, that is HARDLY in the progressive spirit.

The selectivity of the "Shit on Christians" crowd is astonishing, both in their completely open lack of

respect or sensitivity toward DU Christians, and in their blatant hypocrisy vis a vis other religions.

I can't imagine why the the administrators do NOTHING to stop it, and can only assume its because they

share the hatred and have decided to allow it free reign.

The same ones who rush to start a thread complaining about Christian privilege and "evangelizing" after seeing religious posts on face book or overhearing a religious remark in a grocery line or seeing a religious bumper sticker in a parking lot are the same ones who giddily start and jump into the religious hatefest du jour.

Oh, and they're hypocrites too.

were happy with a thread in gd mocking Christianity.

Just weird.

Oh well.

I simply don't why their assholishness and hypocrisy is tolerated.

Because I said that skepticscott was a bigot. He had directly compared faith in God with believing in Santa Claus, and said that believing in Santa Claus was more rational because there was more evidence for the existence of Santa.

The double standard: Spouting bigotry is OK, saying "this person spouting bigotry is a bigot" is not. Indeed, one of the voters said specifically that if I had said "this is bigotry", he would have allowed it, but saying "you are a bigot" was beyond the pale. I fail to see how the two differ.

It would certainly do good things for my equanimity.

that DU is biased in favor of atheism and atheists, so you can make of that what you will..

I, too, have had posts deleted for lame, questionable reasons, while

blatant attacks against me were allowed to stand.

unfortunately. You're avoiding the religious threads may be the reason

it seems less so.

The Haters got particularly ugly on Easter.

It's generally best to avoid them, realizing that their level of hate requires lots

of energy, and tends, in terms of the haters' health and wellbeing,

to become its own punishment.

I can easily 'get away' with criticism of fellow Christians of which there is no shortage of hypocrisy and right wing theology. but Islam? Topic quickly turns to yes but Christians blah blah blah... it's like there is no recognition of someone disagreeing with gay marriage vs getting stoned to death for it.I have learned to just not go therebecause so many people are so tone deaf discussion is non existent

Put yourself into an outsider's shoes with the influence of "the moral majority" types, the scammer TV preachers, the dominance of the Branch Leviticans in the TeaPubliKlan party, the bigotry and sexisim blasted from sea to shinning sea, and massive breaches of trust and decency by some denominations.

Add in some centuries of heinous history quick to apply a whitewash in Christ's name and distrust, animosity, and running as far as possible from hateful folk is no surprise.

Shoot, I don't want to be associated with those villains, prosperity cultists, bigots, anti - science loons, scammers, and Hell mongering servants of what often sounds like a mean spirited, childish, and most of all small and petty god. My God is too big to be contained in a book or even the human mind. The Jesus I know is about love and redemption for all and the way for all humankind - past, future, and present.

It is our duty to shine the light and reject the false prophets and hate not crying about rational reaction to a lot of inequity and what we'd reject as evil if it came from any other source.