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salimbag

(173 posts)
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 01:09 PM Apr 2015

The construction of a telescope in Hawaii is controversial, because religion

Last edited Fri Apr 17, 2015, 02:05 PM - Edit history (1)

After seven years of due process, the initial phase of construction for the TMT (thirty meter telescope) on Mauna Kea is being blocked by protests. Activitists claim the mountain is "sacred", and are demanding the project be stopped. Native Hawaiians are on both sides of this issue, with some on the side of the science of discovery that allowed Hawaiians to be here in the first place, and others claiming that cultural and spiritual practices are more important. Plenty of references to god, most likely the one introduced by the missionaries, but also the ancient gods of early Hawaiians. No word on the fate of the thirteen telescopes that are already on the mountain.
http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/news/local-news/hundreds-turn-out-oppose-tmt

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The construction of a telescope in Hawaii is controversial, because religion (Original Post) salimbag Apr 2015 OP
The ancient gods of hawaii can get rid of the telescope themselves, if they want to. AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #1
Good one! salimbag Apr 2015 #2
Which raises the whole question bvf Apr 2015 #3
ethocide AlbertCat Apr 2015 #4
Amen to that. deucemagnet Apr 2015 #12
Sorry, but 'holy' isn't a reason. Really, really sorry. immoderate Apr 2015 #5
How can they know the Gods edhopper Apr 2015 #6
This really sucks. beam me up scottie Apr 2015 #7
Mahalo bmus! salimbag Apr 2015 #8
Mahalo salimbag! beam me up scottie Apr 2015 #9
"The search for knowledge on the summit of Mauna Kea is a sacred mission " beam me up scottie Apr 2015 #10
This is the best! salimbag Apr 2015 #13
I thought so too! beam me up scottie Apr 2015 #18
looks like a cool building edhopper Apr 2015 #11
woah, that thing is a beast. awesome AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #14
More scientist will have access edhopper Apr 2015 #15
I watched a sunrise on the summit of Haleakala once with my wife. AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #16
I have been there twice edhopper Apr 2015 #17

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
1. The ancient gods of hawaii can get rid of the telescope themselves, if they want to.
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 01:40 PM
Apr 2015


They have the technology.

salimbag

(173 posts)
2. Good one!
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 02:51 PM
Apr 2015

This is an issue that has divided the community. The claims about "sacred " sites are an emotional issue, but the claimants haven't demonstrated any actual harm to their cultural practices. The more rational native Hawaiians are in support, based on the traditions of celestial navigation and exploration. Makes you wonder about the historical context. Aloha!

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
3. Which raises the whole question
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 02:56 PM
Apr 2015

of divine retribution.

Why should an omniscient being (or beings) wait for an offense before responding?

Wouldn't it make more sense just to kill off all the scientists on the project?

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
4. ethocide
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 04:14 PM
Apr 2015

They're lucky the Massey Energy Company isn't removing the mountain top.

Are these telescopes destroying the mountain? It's eco-system?

deucemagnet

(4,549 posts)
12. Amen to that.
Sat Apr 18, 2015, 01:26 PM
Apr 2015

I drive by a mountaintop removal mine every morning on my way to work. It's fucking obscene.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
7. This really sucks.
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 05:57 PM
Apr 2015

If artifacts/ruins/burial grounds were being disturbed I would sympathize with native Hawaiians, but this is about what a few claim their gods want. There are no species that will be adversely affected - the site is above 4000 meters, pretty sure the spiders and lichens don't mind sharing- and you won't be able to see the telescope unless you're very near the summit.

Not to mention the fact that there are already more than a dozen telescopes up there.

The big protest thread in GD was shameful, they compared the TMT to strip mining, claimed they were stealing land from native Hawaiians and even called it a war crime for fucks sake. Talk about clueless people and their idiotic causes du jour.



I only hope I live long enough to see the images from the TMT, from what I understand they'll make the Hubble images look like Polaroids.

Here's some info from the TMT site:

Science with a 30-Meter Telescope

A 30-meter telescope, operating in wavelengths ranging from the ultraviolet to the mid-infrared, is an essential tool to address questions in astronomy ranging from understanding star and planet formation to unraveling the history of galaxies and the development of large-scale structure in the universe.

The 30-meter aperture permits the telescope to focus more sharply than smaller telescopes by using the power of diffraction of light. The large aperture also collects more light than smaller scopes, allowing images of fainter objects. TMT will therefore reach further and see more clearly than previous telescopes by a factor of 10 to 100 depending on the observation.

In addition to providing nine times the collecting area of the current largest optical/infrared telescopes (the 10-meter Keck Telescopes), TMT will be used with adaptive optics systems to allow diffraction-limited performance, i.e., the best that the optics of the system can theoretically provide. This will provide unparalleled high-sensitivity spatial resolution more than 12 times sharper than what is achieved by the Hubble Space Telescope. For many applications, diffraction-limited observations give gains in sensitivity that scale like the diameter of the mirror to the fourth power, so this increase in size has major implications.

...

Exploration of galaxies and large-scale structure in the young universe, including the era in which most of the stars and heavy elements were formed and the galaxies in today’s universe were assembled. TMT will allow detailed spectroscopic analysis of galaxies and subgalactic fragments during the epoch of galaxy assembly. Observations with TMT will help answer questions about the early production and dispersal of the chemical elements, the distribution of baryons within dark matter halos and the processes of hierarchical merging of subgalactic fragments.

The early epoch of the formation and development of the large-scale structures that dominate the universe today should also be observable with the TMT. Studies of the matter power spectrum on small spatial scales, using direct observations of distant galaxies and the intergalactic medium (IGM), provide information on the physics of the early universe and the nature of dark matter that are inaccessible using any other techniques.

Investigations of massive black holes throughout cosmic time. The recently-discovered tight correlation between central black hole mass and stellar bulge velocity dispersion strongly implies that black hole formation and growth is closely tied to the processes that form galaxies. This result also suggests that super massive black holes are at the centers of most or all large galaxies. The TMT combination of high spatial resolution and moderate-to-high spectral resolution will extend our capability to detect and investigate central black holes to cosmological distances. In addition to investigations designed to understand the black hole-galaxy growth issue, nearby supermassive black holes can be analyzed with very high physical resolution. This will allow us to measure general relativistic effects at the center of the Galaxy and to spatially resolve the accretion disks for active black holes in the centers of galaxies to the distance of the Virgo cluster.

...

Furthermore, as has been the case for every previous increase in capability of this magnitude, it is very likely that the scientific impact of TMT will go far beyond what we envision today and TMT will enable discoveries that we cannot anticipate.


salimbag

(173 posts)
8. Mahalo bmus!
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 11:21 PM
Apr 2015

It is fairly certain that the TMT will be built, based on the history of protest in the islands. The success of the protests against the interisland ferry was because Gov. Lingle (R) broke the law during the permitting process. This project has passed a very extensive and lengthy examination, so at some point it will be completed. Mahalo to the University of Hawaii!

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
9. Mahalo salimbag!
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 11:26 PM
Apr 2015

Good to know, thank you!

I remember reading a great lte written by a native in support of the TMT, let me see if I can find it...

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
10. "The search for knowledge on the summit of Mauna Kea is a sacred mission "
Fri Apr 17, 2015, 11:50 PM
Apr 2015
The search for knowledge on the summit of Mauna Kea is a sacred mission
Published April 19, 2013 - 12:05am
By CHAD KALEPA BAYBAYAN
Kailua-Kona

I would like to extend my appreciation for Jim Makaala’s letter, “Our ancestors can speak for themselves,” but offer a different perspective.

He asks for replies from chiefs and warriors, that of which I am neither, I am only a humble native of the land.

I am Chad Kalepa Baybayan. I have served as captain and navigator of the Hawaiian deep-sea voyaging canoes Hokulea, Hawaiiloa, and Hokualakai. I am a graduate of UH Hilo’s Ka Haka Ula O Keelikolani College of Hawaiian Language, and I hold a masters degree in Education from Heritage College. I have worked with students and educators sharing the powerful story of the mariner explorers and astronomer navigators who settled these islands. Along with four other Hawaiian men, I was granted the rank of Pwo and inducted into a society of noninstrument master navigators by Master Navigator Pious Mau Piailug in the Satawalese tradition and extended the privilege to teach and pass on the skills, techniques, and values of the oceanic wayfinder.

My relationship with Mauna Kea is grounded in the many occasions this sacred mountain has led me back to my home and my family as a navigator aboard Hawaii’s deep-sea voyaging canoes. At night, as you approach the Big Island, Mauna Kea rises out of the sea, its summit framed and warmed by a blanket of stars. At sea, on a cloudless night, when peering at the awesome sight of Mauna Kea, the stars reach down out of the sky and touch the skin of the mountain and you recognize they are all the same, Mauna Kea and the sky. Mauna Kea is the celestial portal into the universe.

...

As explorers, Hawaiians utilized island resources to sustain their communities. The slopes of Mauna Kea contain a record of how, for generations, a very adaptive and intelligent people used the mountain as a vital resource. They excavated the thin-aired slopes of Mauna Kea for high-quality, durable stone to produce the best neolithic tools in the Pacific. The Mauna Kea adze quarry, the largest in the world, offers conclusive evidence the ancients recognized the importance of Mauna Kea’s rich resources and its ability to serve its community by producing the tools to sustain daily life. They ventured to Mauna Kea, reshaped the environment by quarrying rock, left behind evidence of their work, and took materials off the mountain to serve their communities, with the full consent and in the presence of their gods.

Using the resources on Mauna Kea as a tool to serve and benefit the community through astronomy is consistent with the example of the adze quarry. To value astronomy and its work on Mauna Kea, you have to value the importance of “ Ike,” knowledge, and its quest for a greater understanding of the universe we live in. Our ancestors were no different; they sought knowledge from their environment, including the stars, to guide them and to give them a greater understanding of the universe that surrounded them. The science of astronomy helps us to advance human knowledge to the benefit of the community. It teaches us where we have come from, and where we are going. Its impact has been positive, introducing the young to the process of modern exploration and discovery, a process consistent with past traditional practices.

My perspective of Mauna Kea is based on the tradition of the oceanic explorers from whom I descend, a people who left the safety of their coasts, sailed away, and in so doing discovered the stars. As a Hawaiian, I recognize I am a descendant of some of the best naked-eye astronomers the world has known. It is culturally consistent to advocate for Hawaiian participation in a field of science that continues to enable that tradition and a field in which we ought to lead. I firmly believe the highest level of desecration rests in actions that remove the opportunity and choices from the kind of future our youth can own.

http://westhawaiitoday.com/sections/opinion/columns/search-knowledge-summit-mauna-kea-sacred-mission.html


salimbag

(173 posts)
13. This is the best!
Sun Apr 19, 2015, 12:34 PM
Apr 2015

These are the words of a wise man. Mahalo nui loa! I have observed that much of the protest against this telescope is the usual knee-jerk reaction against any progressive activity. The default position is some reference to the "sacred" nature of whatever is being impacted. I have neighbors and friends that are totally against the TMT, and they are NOT immersed in ancient Hawaiian religion. Just using the words, without the understanding.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
18. I thought so too!
Sun Apr 19, 2015, 06:54 PM
Apr 2015

I'm sure Chad is not the only native who feels this way.

So glad you started this thread in here, the one in GD was depressing.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
16. I watched a sunrise on the summit of Haleakala once with my wife.
Sun Apr 19, 2015, 05:10 PM
Apr 2015

It was good and all, but I really wanted access to the observatory on the south face of the summit.

edhopper

(34,862 posts)
17. I have been there twice
Sun Apr 19, 2015, 06:35 PM
Apr 2015

spectacular!

Is it too late for you to go back to school and become an astronomer?

[img][/img]

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