Atheists & Agnostics

trotsky

(49,533 posts) Thu Jul 9, 2015, 04:00 PM Jul 2015

What does it take to blame religion?

An oldie but a goodie from Jerry Coyne.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/what-does-it-take-to-blame-religion/

We’re all familiar with those people who claim that no foul deed, no murder, no injury can be laid at the feet of faith—at least in modern times. They might grudgingly admit that the Inquisition or the Crusades may have had something to do with faith, but those were the bad old days. Now things are different. And while religion may seem to be involved in today’s horrors and evils, when you look deeper, they say, you’ll ultimately find the real causes. The Protestant/Catholic fracas in Northern Ireland? A historical squabble—religion was just a “label” for political opponents. The persecution of Galileo? A civil and political affair, not involving faith. The institutionalized slaughter of the Jews during World War II? Well, the Nazis needed a scapegoat somewhere. The murder of UN workers and Afghanis in last week’s mosque-fuelled riots? Islam had nothing to do with it: it was simply the effect of lying, manipulative mullahs inflaming a populace who hate the colonialism of America and Europe.

...

Granted, evil actions often stem from a complicated nexus of faith and secular factors. But I wonder about this: if people say that the root causes of evil in this world are things like xenophobia, politics, colonialism, and the like, why wouldn’t you place faith among them? After all, to many people faith is far more personal, far more important, than politics. Many Catholics go to church weekly; many Muslims pray five times a day and read only the Qur’an. Many people say that their faith is the most important thing in their lives. And, as I said, people consider it far more insulting to criticize their faith than their politics. Given this, why wouldn’t faith be responsible for some awful things? Why is it alone excused from being an impetus of evil? We all know the reason: belief in belief.

...

So I offer a tentative suggestion to identify situations in which religion is “responsible” for evils. It’s this:

Would those acts have still been committed had there been no religion?

16 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

What does it take to blame religion? (Original Post) trotsky Jul 2015 OP

I don't know if I get it RussBLib Jul 2015 #1

Belief in belief AlbertCat Jul 2015 #2

The Internetz are not mine to award, sadly. But I can award you this thread. :) trotsky Jul 2015 #4

I like Jefferson nil desperandum Jul 2015 #3

A goodie indeed. progressoid Jul 2015 #5

Clear and realistic thinking. Iggo Jul 2015 #6

Well I have often seen it argued in the religion forum edhopper Jul 2015 #7

Came up against this yesterday. Lars39 Jul 2015 #8

God intervenes to do good stuff, but free will is at work on bad stuff. Arugula Latte Jul 2015 #9

In their view! God is actively directing them to that pair of pants on sale, Lars39 Jul 2015 #10

Because of sin means god did it Lordquinton Jul 2015 #11

Evidently a big part of "faith" is that your own particular religion can never be a force for evil Major Nikon Jul 2015 #12

All done in pseudo-dulcet tones, when in person. Lars39 Jul 2015 #16

That's it! I'm out of here! Gone for good! mr blur Jul 2015 #13

I'm back! mr blur Jul 2015 #14

Something rude???!? trotsky Jul 2015 #15

RussBLib

(9,668 posts)

1. I don't know if I get it

Reply to trotsky (Original post)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 08:17 PM

Jul 2015

Why is faith alone excused from being an impetus of evil? It isn't. Certainly not in my world. Plenty of right-minded people see that devout faith (be it Islam or Christianity, etc) can cause conflicts with other faiths, or conflicts with non-believers.

Those who would excuse the belief system from being a first cause most likely have some vested interest in thinking that way.

I don't yet understand Coyne's reference of a "belief in belief," unless he means something to the effect that, since the majority of the 7 billion or so humans on Earth at this time are believers in some form of religion, then belief gets a collective "pass" so to speak. Perhaps only when the majority of humans on Earth possess a scientific or rational thought process would we no longer have a "belief in belief"? Maybe not.

I've just started reading Coyne's latest book, Faith vs. Fact.

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)

2. Belief in belief

Reply to RussBLib (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 10, 2015, 09:16 AM

Jul 2015

Daniel Dennett talks about that in his book on priests that don't believe but still preach. A notion that believing is somehow good for people even tho' you know it's not true.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)

4. The Internetz are not mine to award, sadly. But I can award you this thread. :)

Reply to AlbertCat (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 10, 2015, 12:46 PM

Jul 2015

Great concise summary.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Belief_in_belief

nil desperandum

(654 posts)

3. I like Jefferson

Reply to trotsky (Original post)

Fri Jul 10, 2015, 11:50 AM

Jul 2015

progressoid

(50,751 posts)

5. A goodie indeed.

Reply to trotsky (Original post)

Sat Jul 11, 2015, 08:53 AM

Jul 2015

Iggo

(48,285 posts)

6. Clear and realistic thinking.

Reply to trotsky (Original post)

Sat Jul 11, 2015, 02:34 PM

Jul 2015

edhopper

(34,880 posts)

7. Well I have often seen it argued in the religion forum

Reply to trotsky (Original post)

Sun Jul 12, 2015, 07:38 AM

Jul 2015

that it is not because of religion, cause some stuff and some other stuff.

Lars39

(26,233 posts)

8. Came up against this yesterday.

Reply to trotsky (Original post)

Mon Jul 13, 2015, 07:29 AM

Jul 2015

Last edited Mon Jul 13, 2015, 10:14 AM - Edit history (1)

It's always God's will for the innocuous stuff, yet God doesn't give babies cancer. Oh, I "just don't understand how it works."
My rebuttal: you can't have it both ways, giving credit for the blessings but not the curses.

I've been beating myself up thinking I should have just walked away and said nothing, but that has only seemed to let the brainwashed take over.

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)

9. God intervenes to do good stuff, but free will is at work on bad stuff.

Reply to Lars39 (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 13, 2015, 11:43 AM

Jul 2015

So, there you have it.

Lars39

(26,233 posts)

10. In their view! God is actively directing them to that pair of pants on sale,

Reply to Arugula Latte (Reply #9)

Mon Jul 13, 2015, 01:39 PM

Jul 2015

Babies with cancer are results of sin or just shit that happens to the unblessed.

My BP is up from their alternate universe crap.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)

11. Because of sin means god did it

Reply to Lars39 (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 13, 2015, 01:55 PM

Jul 2015

Because sin is just offending god. In really weird ways too.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)

12. Evidently a big part of "faith" is that your own particular religion can never be a force for evil

Reply to Lars39 (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 15, 2015, 02:04 AM

Jul 2015

No matter what happens it's all god's "will" and comparatively we are all like ants who will never be able to understand the will of people. Then they go on to promote their dogma, often by the force of government, based on the will of god.

Kinda funny how that works.