There are so many better ones out there.

When is a better time to discuss the unbelievable nature of the story.

Or is this like gun control, when there is never a "good time".

NEVER a good time to tell people what they believe, diety-wise, is 'unbelievable,' gets us NOWHERE.

I posted this here and not in Religion for that reason.

I don't, I never have. My daughter agrees with me anyway, no need to 'tell' her.

You should hear me rant at Passover.

and the Jews were never slaves in Egypt.

It is a horrible story. It’s only redeeming feature is that it is entirely fiction. The nativity myth is at least not horrible except of course for the gratuitous anti-semetic horseshit tossed in about Herod ordering the slaughter of newborns.

Though the movies about the Exodus are much more exciting than those about the nativity.
And I like the holiday food, including Matzo and Gefilta Fish

One need not visit this forum of one is afraid of being offended by the opinion of atheists.

For pity sake. The very nature of being an Atheist is that we are certain believers are wrong, and by definition, what they believe is "unbelievable."

You are asking me to change my spots within my own group.

Unbelievable. Treating religion as a special idea which should not be criticized leads to very dangerous things.

And tell us the story

Frodo throwing the ring into Mt. Doom or the defeat of the Emperor on the second Death Star.

Saturnalia did though, and so did midwinter celebrations.

love it.

is worthy of celebration, but there were very sad losses incurred.

Some may say that it is never a good time to put poop in the punch bowl, and Christmas Eve would be a punch bowl sort of time for your statement. But you really didn't put it in the bowl. You posted this in the Atheists and Agnostics forum. That should be perfectly fine. Believers need not tread here and be offended. If I visit the Religion forum I respect that it is a forum not specifically for atheists, like me, in which to constantly deride religion.

I have some pretty strong opinions on religion. Namely, that it is one of the worst evils mankind ever dreamed up. There are tons of people who hold the same view. Perhaps you are one of them. Others see the good things religions bring about and praise them.

I tend to agree with Sam Harris. Harris contends that the only moral framework worth talking about is one where "morally good" things pertain to increases in the "well-being of conscious creatures" (That last sentence is a quote from Wikipedia. I couldn't really improve on it so I used it). Every religion has brought about some pretty opposite consequences from improving the well-being of sentient beings. In fact, religions have brought about some of the most horrific scourges on sentient beings. Our current, popular ones are no exception.

The idea that one needs religion or Gods and Goddesses to be moral is quite the fallacy.

But I digress. The subject is the Nativity. It is quite the hyped and contrived story. First of all, many ancient dwellings had spaces where humans and animals were pretty close together and even shared. The shared body heat of the large animals helped heat the dwellings. So the mix of humans and animals at the scene is really only remarkable to modern people. Though, when I travel in the Northeastern US I see a lot of what look like houses and barns back to back or otherwise connected. Surely this served more than the purpose of making it easy to get to the livestock during cold, snowy winters.

Now days, historians are beginning to come right out and say the story is just a fable. That shepherds would not be tending a flock in December. That perhaps the story would be more properly set in June than in December. Most of us know that the Romans picked the date to co-opt the winter festival they already observed. Just like building physical structures of the new Christian church over the old temples of earlier religions served to wipe them out, selecting that date was purposely selected to help wipe out the old pagan festival.

Then there is the whole matter of having to return to one's birthplace for a census or paying taxes. Roman documents show this just was not the way it was done. People were taxed in the province in which they resided. Just like today. There is also no record of a census at this time. So that part is also pretty silly

As for the Magi? I'm not really sure.

Frankly, the whole thing just seems to be the ancient equivalent of a Lifetime TV movie. Nice to watch with the family but completely devoid of reality.

more thoughtful than my post deserved.

Thank you.

If rich wise men brought valuable gifts, why didn’t they just buy the family a room in whatever inn they’d reserved for themselves? You know they weren’t hunkering down in some barn. Feeling sorry for the poor is a lot more convenient than helping them with housing I guess.

of the things that don't make sense with that story or completely contradict known history.

on Youtube.
The whole story is a Pagan interpretation of ancient astrology.

will bookmark for later

plan to kidnap baby Jesus tonight out of our neighbor’s light up nativity tonight. We are replacing him with a yoda we bought at goodwill. We will wrap the baby in swaddling clothes and put him in their mailbox...we’ve been planning this for a month. I’m so excited!!

1) Kidnap baby Jesus in the dark of night
2) Take said baby on a road trip and photograph him in front of various landmarks
3) Send Polaroids (you can still get those, right?), one every couple days with notes that say things like "Having a great time in Nashville (or wherever) and I'm never coming back!
4) Return the newly cosmopolitan pseudo Savior in the dead of night about a month later with a note attached that says "I'm tired"


When I worked in Indy Car racing back in the 90's me and a team mate almost did this to a lawn burro. We were going to take it all over the country, show it working in Pit Lane at the Indy Speedway, Pics of it at the Queen Mary in Long Beach, hauling golf clubs in Phoenix, etc. but it never happened.

Along with replacing baby Jesus with a zombie baby named Angry Alice that I bought at a yard sale. She's motion activated so when the nativity owners get close she'll shake and say "don't make me angry!" That'll be Christmas 2018. A girl has gotta have goals.

This might be pretty obvious, but mail the pics to the owner every few days with a short note.


I got this idea years ago when I read some guy swiped a garden gnome and did the same thing. Took it all over - pics of it in Times square, at the St. Louis arch, the Golden Gate Bridge, etc! The owner got a couple dozen postcards and letters "from the Gnome"

We have a chapter of the Gnome Liberation Front in our town. They periodically steal garden gnomes and then set them free at a later date in a designated place for owners to reclaim. It’s hilarious unless of course, your gnome is liberated...😒

As a myth, it's an outlier, in that they never tried to draw a bunch of inferences from it to force people to live this way or that. It's outside the old testament and the new -- an Intermezzo of sorts -- that retained an appealing simplicity.

Naivete even sounds like nativity, come to think of it.

I just love it when people get so hateful. I mean like Trump people, racists, misogynists, people who laugh at homeless people, hate immigrants....then those who know better do the same thing in attacking the religious beliefs and customs and symbols of religions they for some reason disagree with. Maybe they are racists like Trump who don't like Muslims very much. Or maybe they are people who attack Christians on Christmas day and ridicule one of the religious beliefs of some Christians. It just makes me sick. If you are narrow minded bigot like trump, don't spew your anti-Christian crap on Christmas day. Bah humbug

But why are you In The Aetheist & Agnosic Group? Are you lost?

Does that make me a bigot too?

of any religious belief, no matter how ludicrous or impossible it may be is bigotry?

Now that's an argument that can lead to some unsavory ends.

And by the way bud, here is exatly where anti-Christian voices are raised.

Don't like it, stay the fuck out.

Spew your anti-atheist bigotry elsewhere.

if they "don't like Muslims very much"


Ollie obviously didn't get the memo that Islam is NOT A FUCKING RACE!


Jesus Harpsichord Christ on a printing press.

ollie10 wrote: "Don't spew your anti-Christian crap on Christmas day. Bah humbug." ????

LOL X 1000!!!

If atheists managed to push down their revulsion, and keep mum for a year, churches would lose so much attendance and money that they'd be begging them to come back to the fray. Churches ought to be paying atheists for their tweets and posts.

...it was futile:
















FYI: It's spelled naivety not nativity...just sayin'

especially the last one.

Many Christians have naivety about the nativity.

probably part of out genetic material. An old familiar story where hope, faith, and charity flow together and cannot be separated. It is about individual survival and group survival over eons.

It is the authoritarian technicians of religion who turn it into a dogma.