will use the excuse "Well, she was a sinner and the devil wants to start her torment ASAP!"

think about how their Prayer Circles, and prayers in general, are just their own way of casting spells in today's world. And they call US Pagans!

Glendower:
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur:
Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them?

Except maybe for those doing the praying.

No one likes to be alone facing a health crises, but there isn't a lot anyone can do in a practical sense.

On the off chance there is any force for good in the universe, many people accept the good will of prayer, let go of trying to manage and control everything and relax a bit, reducing stress.

So if having someone pray for them allows a person to let go of stress, it can make their body better able to heal. Stress hormones can cause a resistance to chemotherapy.

Per National Cancer Institute (.gov)
Stress and Cancer - NCI
Chronic stress may also lead to the release of a class of steroid hormones called glucocorticoids. Glucocorticoids may inhibit a type of tumor cell death called apoptosis and increase metastasis and resistance to chemotherapy (14).Oct 21, 2022


A non-believer can possibly get the same result by talking with someone or reading a book or watching a movie, anything that helps them feel calm and relaxed in the face of a heavy duty situation.

Even if stress is only 5% of the problem, being able to have a little personal control over anything in face of something so horrible can't hurt and might help.

I think there is a movement to push them that way, another way of dividing the country. Hopefully logic will prevail.

But the Christian Nationalist movement has pushed so many people away from church and it's sad.

The actual example of what Christ said and did is completely opposite their crusade of hatred.

The Inquisition was a violation of core principals Jesus preached as were the Crusades and the Doctrine of Discovery.

The Church has been taken over by people seeking to abuse it's power to persuade on many occasions, so the Separation of Church and State really protects both.

As a Christian, I simply want to live an ethical life based on the example Jesus set with his words and actions.

If anyone has questions, I'll answer, from my own experience and research, but I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. That isn't the way I want to be treated so why would I do that to anyone else? Especially in God's name. It's just backwards to everything I know about being a Christian.

Life is hard. I don't begrudge anyone any comfort they may find, especially in the face of pain and death.

My father in law is close to going into Hospice.

We weren't expecting things to go this way but had not gotten any real answers until recently. He has something that got missed for several years and is really nasty and wearing him down even with constant medical care in the hospital setting.

US being near him and simply loving him is good, but if he wants a minister, we'll probably arrange that.

He enjoyed attending church and is a solid father who loves his family deeply.

He doesn't want to suffer and is old enough that dying naturally/peacefully would bring him peace.

They had to do CPR on him for a bit and he doesn't want that specifically again.

Thanks for sharing it. It's an enlightened perspective.

To be clear, if someone wants to pray or join others in prayer, that's their business, not mine. I respect their privacy to believe whatever they want. For me, it is meaningless except as a form of meditation. I think that's part of what you wrote. The other part being the comfort derived from knowing that other people care about you.

Regarding non-believers, your stress-reducing suggestions are excellent and there are, of course, many more ways to reduce stress, (I do not mean drugs or alcohol). In addition to your suggestions I would add exercise, taking a walk, pursuing a hobby or activity or anything that brings peace or happiness.

Your post is thoughtful and thought-provoking. My comment was simply my personal view on the results achieved by prayer. For most of my life, I was a Protestant Christian who valued prayer. One of the many reasons I evolved in my thinking was because I repeatedly saw that prayer wasn't accomplishing its primary function, that is, achieving divine intervention. Nothing ever changed. Combined with other elements required of faith I chose to view the universe through the provable facts learned through science. I've found my own peace by understanding things without any supernatural requirements.

Prayer illustrates one of the many inherent contradictions of faith, namely, if god is involved in our personal lives, god doesn't need to have any problems brought to its attention by third parties. God supposedly already knows of the troubles. If god does not know these things then it isn't involved in our daily lives but needs to have problems brought forward by third parties. This doesn't make any sense to me.

As I wrote, prayer and faith are an individual's own business and I hold no rancor for anyone's beliefs. I'd just prefer they keep it all to themselves.

I know what I believe and why I do, but it's about making myself a better person - not forcing that on others.

I've also looked at the evolution of humanity and the part that various religions played in getting us civilized enough to find science and get morality into most laws. I don't think the 10 Commandments invented morality, but in each society we've evolved to believe that to survive together, people should not just walk up and kill each other for no reason as an example.

When I look at Christian Nationalism and America First, I see US devolving back to Klan mentality from days before we learned to work together and only trusted direct family and few others.

The contradiction of prayer is a bit simple for me. God isn't a short order cook AND we have free will that gets US into lots of troubles.

Some days what I realize is that prayer changes ME so I can be strong enough to live in this world and make a difference.

As long as my atheist friends only tease me a little about going to see "my imaginary friend" I am good.

I did stand up and walk out of a conversation when one person was getting into the "religion MUST BE RIDICULED" tirade. Because ridicule isn't really using ones logic, it's disrespectful. I don't tolerate that in my life anymore. My first husband tried to control me and even gave it a shot at killing me. So it was a necessary skill to develop. I give warnings if someone is crossing lines then leave the conversation because whatever disrespect looks like, it doesn't belong in my life.

A little teasing, I can live with. Laughing at oneself is a healthy skill to have. Some days we are all a little bit weird. But that's what makes life interesting.

That doesn't help anyone and we should all respect one another's path. Every part of that path is teaching us something and is therefore important.
But you know, Atheists never go a minute in this culture without Christianity being shoved at them from some angle or another and we've all had to keep our resentments about it under wraps for a long, long time while listening to Christians complain that they cannot be open about their religious beliefs/practice. They are not happy having a church on every other corner, they must write their religious doctrine into law that we all are forced to abide. So you can understand our resentment of religion, especially Christianity. I think the ultra right swing of evangelicals has driven more people away from Christianity than anything else. The hypocrisy is so glaring, it's hard not to take Christianity as a cult of charlatans. When I meet a Christian who actually tries to embody the values Christ of the Bible taught, it's very refreshing. I don't know how long they'll be able to tolerate the hypocrisy, though.

Still, you shouldn't be teased, and I am sorry you are having to endure that.

People who knew they were prayed for, had worse outcomes then those who didn't know. The stress of having to live up to the prayers of everyone can interfere with healing.

But there could be a placebo effect, which some studies also show.

So no, being prayed for is not a comforting idea to all religious people....it can actually be stressful to some. But it's not a very significant difference in recovery either way.

The OP had an actual family member on death's door.

Maybe you are only here to argue points ad infinitum.... but I care about people here on DU and thought to offer a logical reason for why it could work in case that helped ease the conflict. I find that a lot of atheists can find logical reasons for some acts of faith reassuring.

It isn't a black and white world. We live in full color and there are many ways things happen and people react.

But if you ever cared about a family member who is dying, many times if you think whatever crazy thing they do to cope might work for them, it's a relief to know there might be a chance.

My BIL had cancer after being vegan many years. Someone convinced him that plants have an enzyme that stops short of actually poisoning people, but can cause cancer. So now he is on the Carnivore diet. Lots of crazy shit out there that isn't even religious. But he's looking healthier now, so I hope it works for him.




So if having someone pray for them allows a person to let go of stress, it can make their body better able to heal. Stress hormones can cause a resistance to chemotherapy.

The expectation of living up to prayers can add an extra burden. The fear of not being blessed by god with a fast recovery may show how unworthy they are. Religious people are very judgemental and a slow recovery will disappoint all those praying for them.

Also the science doesn't support your theory. Some studies have found prayer slows recovery if the person knows. And reproducible results for either side have been inconclusive. If you want to claim a logical reason you need to post scientific facts otherwise it is not logical.

I find religious ritual ridiculous and ignorant based on superstition and magic. I find that prayer is one of those magical practices that have not been scientifically proven. It's irritating to have people basically say I can't help you but I'll beg an imaginary being that you find ridiculous for help.

This is an Atheist forum not a religious forum. If you don't want people arguing with you about the usefulness of prayer, maybe post on a Christian forum.

Don't most atheist have to face arguments every day? We are constantly bombarded with religious dogma. I think if you're atheist, you kinda have to face up to argument.

The utter hubris and insensitivity of your comment that I have never lost a close loved one is amazing. I lost my spouse of 37 years and it only proved to me there is no god.

A famous study in a reputable medical journal that started the whole field of research into the distant effects of conscious intent. Sounds totally woo-woo, but it seems that there's a there there.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3393937/|

But a lot depends on how these studies are set up. When the prayers read from a prepared script (the Herb Benson/Templeton study), the results aren't as impressive as when they pray from the heart (the Byrd study). Larry Dossey MD has written a couple of good (ie, balanced, and not too technical) books on this topic, where he discusses all these nuances.

One is called "Prayer is Good Medicine": https://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Good-Medicine-Healing-Benefits/dp/0062514245

And a recent interview with him is very interesting. He talks about the science behind distant intentionality and nonlocal mind (which for sure can sound like science fiction!): https://www.knowewell.com/written-content/healing-power-prayer-conversation-larry-dossey

Controlling for placebo effects is crucial in any study like this, as you point out. But fortunately there are ways to control for its impact - sugar pills work when a new medication is being tested, but for interventions like this, the placebo effect is eliminated if the subjects don't know which arm of the study they've been assigned to.

Another way to eliminate placebo factors is to study the effect of distant intention on non-human systems, such as:
Crystal formation in water: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1550830706003272|
Seed sprouting in plants: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1550830720301567|

Hard to believe, but....

And can also have a placebo affect. Either way it seems reproducible results are far from conclusive.

But for people who do find comfort in family and friends praying for them, separation of church and hate is also a good thing.

Carrying an umbrella isn't always helpful. It might not rain. The wind can rip it out of your hands. It might become a lightening rod.

BUT for the most part it works in a generally effective way.

Especially in hospice situations, the person dying can find comfort however they wish to get it.

Don't want to pray or be prayed over, great. That's your choice.

I wouldn't foist prayer on someone who didn't want it, but if they ask, I will do it.

Why does their entire community want to deprive a suffering member from everlasting glory and extend their pain and suffering. I never got that about Christian religious practices.

It was my observation that the deeply religious and the utterly irreligious experience loss in pretty much the same way. If, like me, you count yourself among the irreligious, you can still sympathize with people who struggle to make sense of this from a theistic view. It can be hard when it gets clownish, I know. Worth doing, just for your own mental health.

if she'd have pulled through, it would have been called a miracle due to prayer. She didn't pull through, but no one is going to say that prayers failed.

The logic of magical thinking.

medical personnel that actually saved them.

...who lost loved ones did help me in recognizing....I was not alone. So glad I took good advice from the many who helped me along the way. Prayer was o.k. but it was only part of the healing process.

I have chosen to wear my pain whenever it comes up as a badge of honor for the ones I've loved and lost.

I tell myself that the fact that I can grieve and feel this pain means that the relationship was a value in my life and continues to remind me of my ability to love and be loved.

Shutting myself off from others hasn't been a good thing for me so while I will take time for myself, I don't make walls.

Pain sucks but feeling it and remembering the joy that was is part of being an advanced human being who is aware of life and the rest. So be it.

Hope whatever process you have for dealing with the loss of someone so treasured and important to you has helped.

My folks died in the 90's and it was rough. I was in my 20's and not ready for that.

My FIL is heading toward hospice soon and MIL is 90, so these two are somewhat expected. I find myself kind of Mama Bear in making sure they get the best at this stage of their life and it's partly because I could not do that for my folks. It's becoming another way to heal and grow. Oh goodie.

Face what I can, when I'm able. Rest when I must and just carry on. Luckily it's a good sized family and we can all tag team on it.

Just another day being human, yah?

I called around and couldn't find a group that was not based on some religion. So, I went to the most popular and it was a big fat joke.

Pray to God was mostly what they said. Then some preacher got up there and told us how he found a new wife in just 6 months after the death of his wife of 30 years, praise Jesus. As if spouses are just interchangeable parts.

There were people there who seemed to be in a coma. They were in their own thoughts and didn't participate. The religious counselors didn't draw them out at all.

I finally got tired of all the stupid praying and went looking for a good grief counselor who let me be myself.

Look, I'm a Pagan. I do magick and healing. I believe in a lot of woo. But I don't think that prayer alone solves things. They always thank God when there's a "miracle" (usually done by science), but never blame God when someone dies.

I feel bad for your relative. Cancer sucks, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I pray that their final journey is swift and painless.

drive for six months per the law. She said all she needed to do to prevent another one was to pray harder and kept driving with the support of her pastor. My brother turned her into the DMV and she lost her license. As a result, she blew up our family. Fuck religion.

Sorry your mom was unable to see it that way. And her pastor should be taken to the woodshed. Was he fine with her driving while possibly being at risk?

The answer is "no."

Life is birth, work, joy/pain and death. Oh, and a lot of sleeping.

Who dis?

For your loss. But there is no happiness after death. She died because thats the shit we call life. People get sick and die or they die from violence. There is no gods answer or calling. So fucking delusional.

I want that team praying for me.

Sometimes I ask them to pray for my "cousin" who lost his arm in an industrial accident - I'd like for it to grow back. Alas, I think god hates amputees.

Religion is the oldest, most profitable marketing scam on the planet - just ask Jim and Tammy-Fay Bakker, Pat Roberston, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Harold Camping, Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott .. the list is long.

What they do is, sell a product: salvation, which costs absolutely nothing to make, and sell it to those looking for answers that science can't entirely explain while the organization grows by assimilating many cultures and traditions to spread, like a virus, through time and through as many cultures as it can.

Martin Luther formed a new church because the Pope was corruptly selling slices of Heaven known as "indulgences". The Pope was on the take from both poor and wealthy supporters - no surprise there. It's called 'Merchandising!"

But as you say, the list is long.

When I was 12 years old and formulating my plans to be a multi millionaire, I was going to imitate her game plan.

No need for originality; the cookie cutter approach works just fine here.

😼

I've seen too much unexplainable stuff in my life (68 years) not to believe something's there. Science can't explain it, it's not rational or logical. So I just let it be.

Also Episcopalian. And agnostic. I leave open possibility of doubt.

Thanks! I’ve never seen that argument before.

While there may be something out there I have never seen a prayer work or a spell or a chant or "healing energy" have anything more than placebo effect.

Only no one can tell you because you have to find it out on your own.

Just about everything provided to us as a panacea or a guideline for what we perceive to be the mystery of our existence is either an outright lie or at best misleading.

Planet Earth is like being a baby dumped in the middle of a desert with the parting words “good luck!”

Exact words. I'm sad because this was a friendly woman with a new grandchild. I'm sure she would have preferred to enjoy that reward a little longer.

Prayers notwithstanding.

I think prayers are more for the people praying. They need to do something, even if it is an empty gesture.

In a way, I think it's harder for them to deal with death than us. Their version is kind of convoluted.

God doesn’t always answer the way you want. But it took me a lot of years to fully understand that yes, Ggd is real, and does play a part in this universe of ours. You are certainly welcome to believe what you will- As for me, I had enough happen to 100% be convinced during my lifetime.

Every day is a gift.

All the same fantasy mumbo jumbo, all with the same outcomes

Who in their right mind would pray for a person with a terminal diagnosis like that to continue living anyway? All people die, those who acknowledge God's saving grace realize that death's sting is taken away. I have seen some prayers answered, not all, but much help for those who pray for strength and comfort to bear what has happened with loss and suffering.

woman I have ever been with physically, says his name out loud a lot.

I guess a hooker may feel the way you said, but I never indulged.

i’m glad you got it out there.

It's time to go home. There will be great joy.

I believe that even though they made loud noises of prepackaged religious nonsense, somewhere in their brains there must be a tiny speck of acknowledgement that it is bullshit.

This is the atheists and agnostics forum, and I'm grateful that so many DU'ers participate.

Rather than just poo pooing the idea, it may be worth considering. No disrespect intended. Just saying. None of us know til we get there.

"You have the vaguest clue on how talented one must be to lead a surgical team. I have an M.D. from Harvard, I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and trauma surgery, I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trama from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, Dennis, and you go to your church, and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle, but if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God."

-- Dr. Jed Hill (Alec Baldwin), "Malice"

which might be one of those things hard wired into our brains. I'd be tempted to leave them with their delusions, I've seen those delusions be a great comfort to people who are left here after someone has died. I always tried to call the chaplain sooner rather than later.

That "power of prayer" stuff is annoying as hell to those of us who don't believe a word of it, but it comforts them, allowing them the illusion of doing something when there is nothing to be done, a person is relaxing into an inevitable death.

It's only when they scream for all the technology that they've seen on TV that things get sticky, prolonging death while increasing its pain in the hope that Sky Daddy will finally bother with all those prayers and send them a miracle is nothing they can count on.

So don't be too hard on the fundies unless they refuse that DNR, then the gloves need to come off. Just steel yourself for the torrent of crap at the funeral and be glad it's not your crap.

I was gentle towards the end. When I first told her I was an atheist, long ago, she said, "No you're NOT! You were raised a STRICT BAPTIST!" 🤣

In her later years, I just let her have her beliefs. Kindness and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

All I ever told them about it was that I was done with it. They grumbled, but that was allowed.

My mother's break with all that was when she was in her 70s and finally read the bible and I think the explosion could be heard all the way to the Vatican. She never went back. She was done.

My dad took longer, hedging his bets until he was on his own deathbed and announced out of the blue that he no longer believed a word of it. Under the circumstances, I didn't grill him about it. He was just done.

I was just glad they didn't die with fear of being judged. I had nothing to do with their deconversion. I didn't even use any scary words, I was just done. When their time came, so were they and they weren't afraid to say it to me.

I'm 75 years old, know that I won't be here forever. I have DNR orders in place already, both with the local hospital, as well as an envelope on my refrigerator that says "For EMTs, Health Care Directive". I carry on all the time about having plans for my 97th birthday -- there's a total eclipse of the sun just a few days before my birthday -- but in all honestly, I think making it to my late 80s will probably be it.

I'm very aware that a lot of the medical intervention at the end of life only prolongs dying, or maybe even speeds it up. I've read that people who are in hospice last longer than those who are having everything possible done to prolong life.

I do happen to have a very strong belief in an afterlife, which helps a lot. Which makes me wonder why those who claim to be Christians, who surely believe in God, Heaven, Hell (not for them I'm sure) and all that, why they are so terrified of death?

We can't discern causes, and a cause may not exist

There is a pagan notion of fate that supersedes the powers of the gods. Belief in fate was a comfort we lost when Europeans began to believe in a God that tracked our thoughts and actions, and doled out rewards and punishment.

We like to think that things happen because they deserve to happen, and that out thoughts and verbalization's can change the course of events.

Sometimes good people die young, and very evil people become president of the United States.

All the different cancers that originate in the salivary glands. They are difficult cancers to treat. I'm so sorry you are going through this. She must have been in extreme pain for years. My son was diagnosed in 2016 with stage lV adnoeid cystic carcinoma. He has had two surgeries, radiation and gamma knife. We know eventually that we will have to deal with end of life care. Even tho I'm agnostic, I still find myself saying a prayer every three months when he has his scans. Hopefully your cousin will have a peaceful passing and you will have loving memories.

She lived in another state but posted daily on Facebook. The tumor was wrapped around her esophagus and she only went to the ER because she couldn't swallow. I think that the public details and the private facts must be very different.

I wish for the very best outcome for your son, and many many years of life.

May she be at peace.

Thanks for having the courage to start this conversation.

I always say my best conversations about religion are with agnostics and atheists because understanding that side of it helps me clarify things for myself.

But grief is hard sometimes if you have been close with someone or at odds. With my Mom it was both.

Sometimes the relief that someone you knew and cared for is no longer in pain helps ease the loss quite a bit.

Everyone has their process.

A therapist suggested something I thought was bonkers at the time: A pocket full of rocks walk.

?WHAT?!

The theory is that our mind is multi-sensory, so if we have problems of any kind that are hard to stop thinking about and let go, take a walk and pick up stones to feel the weight of the thoughts physically and then toss them in a lake or river to feel yourself getting rid of them. It worked for me and it was kind of fun anyway. Always can use creative exercise, so win/win/win.

Coming back to make it all better is just laughable.

When others die it’s gawd’s retribution.

Are you saying that he and William Barber are dopes for their beliefs?

the religious beliefs of persons with otherwise admirable qualities.

"Where do you think we go when we die?"

I responded, "Where were you before you were born?"

She responded that she didn't know.

I responded, "You're returning there."

That gave her peace.

I had a discussion with my daughter about death after my spouse of 37 years died. And she reminded me that we were fine before we were born; we will be fine after death. It was very reassuring.

I doesn't hurt me to pretend to pray although I'm fully aware that doing so is meaningless. In so doing, I hurt no one and if it gives the believers comfort, so much the better.

I had an issue with this many years ago when my father was dying and my stepmother was very upset because in attempting to discredit my advice on the discontinuance of treatment my brother yelled to my stepmother during a very tense meeting with a social worker, a nun, that I was an atheist. My stepmother seemed shattered. Later, as she needed peace in a time of pain, I joined her in the hospital chapel and pretended to join her in prayer.

I am very glad I did. It helped her, and I love her very much. It didn't make me a believer, but I believe it made me a good stepson.

I volunteer with a cancer support group that's big on prayer. When it doesn't work, they say the person was healed in heaven. I think it's just to make themselves feel better when the big guy says no.

I hope you have good memories to comfort you.

good memories you have.

They will never admit to being wrong.

Why? Does that mean the Lord is weak and can't do the work by himself?

...every time I heard a stroke victim talk about how "the Lord" was with them and didn't let them die from the stroke, that incidentally left them paralyzed on one side of their body, unable to walk, eat, toilet or speak without a fountain of drool spewing from their mouths. Where was God when all this damage was being done to your brain, dear? Amazing they were so blind to the cruelty of the one they worshipped.

Funny, but terrible!