is "A Canticle for Liebowitz." If you haven't read this highly subversive little gem, do so. You might have to kick and claw your way through parts of it, especially if you don't have even a nodding acquaintance with Catholicism and the monastic tradition of the Middle Ages, it's the kind of book that sticks with you as you watch silly right wing Christians trying to rewrite the bible expunging all the sissy liberal stuff because it doesn't fit any of their preconceptions.

http://www.amazon.com/Canticle-Leibowitz-Walter-Miller-Jr/dp/0553273817

but how about a history if China in the 20th century?

60 years now (I'm 66) and I don't think I've run across anything quite like that. There have been a couple of novels, the names and authors of which escape me, that have some sort of fundamentalist religion happening. Well, one whose name and author I do know is Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein.

There are some novels out there that involve a reversion to a kind of dark ages after some sort of holocaust. The already mentioned A Canticle for Liebowitz is certainly one of those. Another is The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett, which is still in print and can be gotten from Amazon. It's probably been at least fifty years since I last read it, so I can't remember enough to recommend it.

I can't recall the author or the title (dammit!), but a while back someone wrote a book in which a technology was invented that essentially made it impossible for people to lie. As I recall, everyone wore a bracelet of some sort that then glowed red (if I remember correctly) when the wearer told an untruth. In the novel this was presented as A Good Thing, because truth telling is always best, right? It doesn't deal with the loss of the polite social lie, (Honey, does this dress make me look fat?), nor does it address the situation where a person may sincerely believe something that is not true (Obama is a Muslim). I found the societal implications to be far scarier than the author had ever thought out.

Same guy wrote another book in which immortality was essentially achieved, at least in the first world, and again did not fully deal with the actual consequences of that.

Thanks for the tips, and the history! It is very much appreciated!

Terrific book. http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Machine-James-Halperin/dp/0345412885

I did, and became totally horrified at what he assumed would take place. That the total inability to lie about anything at all is nothing but a good thing. The single biggest flaw in the truth machine is that it would not be able to tell an actual untruth from a truth. So if you really believe what you're saying, you are not lying. At least not so far as the machine could detect. I don't know about you, but it's not that uncommon for me to have some fact wrong. Example: recently I got into a discussion with my sister as to exactly which town in Ireland our grandmother was from. I had it wrong. But I was completely convinced I had it right. So I was not lying as such.

In some ways, it might be nice to have a perfect lie detector. But the underlying Libertarian sentiments of the book are quite bothersome to me.

Same with The First Immortal. He touches briefly on economic conditions in the Third World being a whole lot worse than they are not, but doesn't seem to think it matters all that much to the First World characters in the novel. Indeed, as I recall they solve the problem of their discomfort by never again visiting those lesser parts of the planet. Again, the Libertarian underpinnings are disturbing.

Not to mention the thing about someone's wife who dies in a fire. To say anything more would be a plot spoiler of the worst rank, but suffice it to say how he develops that particular sub-plot was extremely disturbing in more than one way.

I wouldn't have recommended them otherwise. I don't recommend books I have not read. Yes it has a Libertarian bent..so what? A lot of SF has a Libertarian bent. And it has done so ever since Heinlein wrote The Moon is a Harsh Mistress back in 1966. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is considered to be one of the most important and influential science fiction novels ever written. Rand influenced a lot of people, and it is pretty obvious that Heinlein was one of them. And Heinlein influenced a lot of people, not just writers. Countless engineers and scientists have stated they were influenced by Heinlein. If you find the Libertarian bent "quite bothersome" then you're going to write off a lot of SF, and I, for one am not willing to do that. YMMV.

Of the Big Three of Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke.. Heinlein was a Libertarian, Asimov and Clarke were Liberals.

I am quite able to divorce my political beliefs from literature, film and music. My criteria are as follows:

(1) Does the creator of said work create and tell a compelling story that grabs and holds my attention?

(2) Do they create a world where I am willing to engage in a willing suspension of disbelief?

If the answer to both is yes, then I will cut them plenty of slack when it comes to politics. After all, what a creator / writer / film maker has his characters saying does not necessary mean they are speaking for him / her. To point this out, if you want to read some really horrifying dystopic SF go read S.M Stirling's The Domination of Draka series. Stirling deliberately wrote this series to show how bad things really could get, and got accused of all sorts of things.

can respond very differently to the same book. Or books.

I will agree with you on the two criteria, but obviously we can be grabbed by different things, and be willing to suspend our disbelief over different things. Chances are I've loved books you hated.

While there are some Libertarian and politically conservative s-f writers, it seems to me that many more of them are pretty liberal politically. I go to cons semi regularly. Lately I've been going regularly to Bubonicon which is in Albuquerque in August, and Mile Hi Con, in Denver in October. This coming weekend, in fact.

I haven't read the Domination of Draka books, and to be honest from reading the description I think they'd be more military than I happened to be interested in. Steve Stirling is a nice guy. He lives here in Santa Fe and I've met him several times. I've also read a couple of his books and liked what I've read.

While I often read dystopian novels, one of my current favorite s-f writers is Connie Willis. Plus many others, like any self-respecting reader.

By the way, thanks for remembering the titles and the author of the books we're discussing. Just couldn't bring them to mind, so I appreciate that someone else right away knew them.

Thanks!

"Warhammer 40k"

Humanity is united in a theocratic, militaristic, racist empire, the "Imperium". The Imperium is ruled by various big organizations which compete with each other for influence but are nevertheless fully loyal. For historical reasons, one of those organizations, the "Mechanicum", was tasked with organizing and maintaining all things industrial and scientific.

And the Mechanicum's origins lie in a small, superstitious cult on Mars, who worshiped the machines that kept them alive when civilization collapsed. The problem: They believe that machines are magic. All production, all repairs and all usage have to follow strict rituals that include incantations, incense and blessed lubricant-oil. Some areas of research are declared off-limits on punishment of death or worse. Any new technological development (even if derived under proper doctrine) has to be sanctioned in a process that can take decades before its proliferation is allowed.

The citizens likewise adopt this superstitious, ignorant stance. Combine this with a political doctrine that favors the old ways over new ideas and an all-encompassing religious indoctrination worshiping the God-Emperor.




If you are interested, I think the Eisenhorn-Trilogy is the best entry into the WH40k-universe.

You rock!

It was written as an indictment of Dianetics, and shows science pushed aside in favor of pseudoscientific dogma.

I will see if I can locate it!

THANK YOU!!!!