There are a few among us on DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=325622&mesg_id=325622

Not much different than the 9/11 Truthers either. I imagine there is quite a correlation between believing one and the other conspiracy theory.

Does not surprise me at all, especially given the source!

a number of people I have come across so far that are a bit light in the head.

When you are that screwed up, believing a POTUS co-opertated in a military assault on the US is child's play. Mentally that is!

but apparantly conspiracy theories are something bigger than teh nets.

There is a book, 'Day of Deceit' by Robert Stinett, published in 1999, which promotes this view. I haven't read it and don't plan to, but I've seen it referenced a number of times. I am sure that's not the first proposal of this sort. I'd be interested to know whether possibly it derives from some propaganda pieces by 'America-Firster types' at the time, or only developed later.

I wouldn't go so far as to say FDR was aware of the specific time and target that the Japanese had selected, but he did engage in both a systematic campaign of antagonistic behavior against the Japanese and a public relations campaign designed to place the aggression of Japan in China into the public limelight.

Considering the fact that colonialism was still being practiced in the region by several European nations, to say that the rational for his actions was hypocritical is understating the situation pretty strongly.

Most scholars think he was goading the Japanese to make a move on the Dutch held oil fields in SE Asia and would have used that as an excuse to escalate the conflict to war. He was desperate to help Churchill and the people wanted nothing to do with it.

All you have to do is look up any of the references to the Holocaust museum has, they are a trust worthy sort. He was so desperate to go to war he knew exactly what was going on in the concentration camps and deliberately ignored it. Yes, clearly he was beating the drum for war. Ugh. You know this is the SKEPTICISM forum, just saying something is true does not make it true. Maybe you ought to be in the creative speculation group. Thats more your style I think.

Go to any well read skeptic's work and you'll see evidence, reasoning and some sort of proof. Pointing vaguely to the Holocaust Museum or an unnamed shadowy "political science professor" is none of that.

When there is abundant solid proof that supports both FDR's desire to help England and the actions he took in Asia vis a vis the Japanese such a rebuttal as you've offered is far more akin to a CT than the idea that FDR wanted the US to enter the war, FFS.


ETA: I poiinted out two MAJOR factual errors in this thread that were supporting your attempt at derision. That those errors were present and allowed to stand should tell you something.

The person I learned it from also has had congressmen as students. FYI, his friend is Norm Ornstein, google him they both are way smarter than you seem to think you are.. I think you don't understand what skepticism REALLY is. I also suggest you take a trip to the Holocaust Museum or their website and do some actual research.
And you SAID they were errors without actually giving me any proof. I've given you mine. I'm sorry I think an internationally known museum is a little bit more trustworthy than some random person on the internet.
You are as bad as any of the truthers who like to claim the NIST is wrong without any actual scientific evidence to the contrary.
BTW..here, do some READING.
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/
As for what I was told, it has more to do with ignoring facts or intelligence failures with the US part
Now who should I believe? A well known congressional scholar who has even been on Colbert Report. Or you?
And yes, you ARE spouting woo.

Who stated he was in middle school at the time of the attack. Right after the attack, he stated he proceeded to get up in front of his class and state that FDR let this happen so he could get us into the war.

That would make him 80+ years old.

So this type of "truther" has been around since almost December 7.

Wish I could find that post.

I heard that rubbish from a relative in the 50s. I saw my mother's reaction to it and realized it must've been rubbish because it was the same reaction she gave to crap from the pulpit.

Must also be an Anti-Vaxxer!

...the American embargo on Japan gave Japan no other choice. What is forgotten, however, is WHY we slapped the embargo on them, they were invading China.

Look up The Mukden Incident.

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2012, 02:24 AM - Edit history (1)

They could have chosen to trade for them. They chose to take them by force.

Tom Clancy had one his characters state in one of his novels "War is just armed robbery on an industrial scale."

The Japanese were not noble, nor they victims of American, British or any foreign aggression. The Japanese were the warmongers during this period in history. They were armed robbers and they paid the cost for their folly. Considering how many people they murdered during their invasion and occupation of China, Korea and other areas in S.E. Asia, I think they got off a great deal easier than they could have.

A one point there discussion of using poison gas against the Japanese during Operation Downfall (the land invasion of Japan). We had stockpiled several thousand TONS of poison gas by the end of the war.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/pacific-online-forum/

That is absolutely true and I think it is largely how FDR saw it, too.

However it does miss one thing, the Japanese were modeling their strategy on what the west had been doing for the past 200+ years.

The entered into a colonial phase just as the rest of the world was starting to move away from it, true; however we should be mindful that the role model they were following was pretty ugly itself. Their entire modernism drive was motivated by what they saw colonialism doing to other countries. They had been completely isolated for centuries and when US Admiral Perry sailed into Tokyo Bay and initiate his gunboat diplomacy they saw a world split between those with military power who used it to take what they wanted and those who were the victims of those with the power.
They made a considered decision to be part of the first group rather than the second. It would have been wonderful if they had a tradition of growing Enlightenment such as was flowering in the West, but they didn't and they took the lessons from events that they were most able to internalize. It was tragic for them and the rest of the world.

If you want to criticize them for their actions from that point to the end of WWII I think you'll find a huge pool of like minded people among the present day Japanese.

http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=516&catid=16&subcatid=108
http://www.economist.com/node/1907601


Did you ever read Sam Clemens on the Moro Crater Massacre?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Crater_massacre

I can't find an online copy of Grief and Mourning for the Night but it is one of the most powerful pieces I've ever read. I strongly recommend the works in this snip on Clemems. They give good insight into what those like the Japanese were seeing as the nature of the world.

maybe you could find your info somewhere else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/carto.asp?xpicked=2&item=carto

10. Willis Carto

Willis Carto is a holocaust denier, Hitler admirer and a white supremacist. A former campaigner for segregationist candidate George Wallace, Carto founded the National Alliance with William Pierce, the author of the “Turner Diaries,” which is credited for inspiring Timothy McVeigh. Carto founded the Populist Party in 1984 and ran David Duke as a presidential candidate. Carto also founded the American Free Press, which is labeled as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), where Paul’s column runs. Paul has not sued Carto for running his column or explained how it wound up in a white supremacist publication. The New York Times writes that Paul used the subscription list to a white supremacist publication of Carto’s to solicit donations.


more:http://newsone.com/nation/casey-gane-mccalla/top-10-racist-ron-paul-friends-supporters/

Thank you for letting me know. I have edited my post to remove the link in question, and substituted another.

It's very old news. One of the reasons I was given as to why it was true was that FDR only asked Congress to declare war on Japan, which was a clever ruse so that Hitler would declare war on the US and FDR would just have to go along with it, all the while secretly pleased he was in the war against Hitler. Our teacher thought the people who pushed the theory were crazy. But I love reading a good conspiracy theory - it's so refreshing to realize that no matter how crazy you are, there is someone out there is is crazier.

It would all be quite funny, if not sometimes linked to xenophobic-isolationism, antisemitism, and right-wing FDR-hatred.

When we declared war on Japan it automatically created a state of war with Germany also.

Japan, Germany and Italy officially became allies after signing the Tripartite Pact of 1940.

Article 3 covered their obligations in case of war (emphasis mine):

ARTICLE 3. Japan, Germany, and Italy agree to cooperate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means if one of the Contracting Powers is attacked by a Power at present not involved in the European War or in the Japanese-Chinese conflict.

IOW, Germany ONLY had to declare war on the U.S. if it attacked Japan. But Japan attacked us first. Germany was under absolutely no obligation to declare war on the U.S.

I've always wondered why Germany did. By December 1941, Hitler had a long history of tearing up treaties/agreements whenever it suited him. Declaring war on the U.S. was one of the two things that guaranteed Nazi Germany would lose the war...the other being its invasion of Russia in June 1941. Which, er, um, oh yes...was pretty obviously a violation of the Russo-German Nonaggression Pact of August 1939.

The History Channel recently ran a documentary on the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories. As one historian pointed out, these theories are almost always politically driven. Specifically by right-wing cranks.

FWIW, the official German declaration of war on the U.S. doesn't even mention Japan. This is the whole thing:

German Declaration of War against the United States

The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever-increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression.

On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearny and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German submarines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that American destroyers attacked German submarines.

Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships.

The German Government therefore establishes the following facts:

Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war.

The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt, Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America.

Accept, Mr. Chargé d'Affaires, the expression of my high consideration.

December 11, 1941

What basis do you have for categorizing the possibility as a cuckoo conspiracy theory?

Is an ex Georgetown Political Scientist. I would say he knows his history and politics better than 99.99% of the US. And believe me, by going to the Holocaust museum I am VERY aware of how little FDR really wanted to go to war in Europe.

Those ships were sunk in controlled demolition.

Anyone who agrees with it is just perpetuating that kind of John Birch Society-inspired bullshit.

Besides, if there was an attack suspected, the most logical place would have been the Philippines, not a naval base thousands of miles away from the home islands. No one suspected that Japan's peace talks going on at the same time were fraudulent, and the strike force sent to Hawaii was under pretty strict secrecy rules.

That won't stop conspiracy fetishists from fapping to the idea, though.

If you read "Human Smoke" you should have few remaining doubts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/books/review/Toibin-t.html

IMO, if the IJN had attacked the US Mainland, say San Francisco, I'm willing to bet Japanese-Americans would have been the target of lynch mobs.

The fact is the War in the Pacific was a Race War. The Japanese thought THEY were the Master Race, and everyone else was subhuman. Americans felt Japanese were barbarians, savages and animals. Race Wars are never nice.

Is that your intention, or am I misinterpreting your post?

I think they were a mistake. FDR made quite a few. But I see them as a reflection of those times. The only thing I wonder is, if Germany had attacked us, instead of Japan, would we have interred German-Americans? Never been able to come to a definite answer on that one.

Just Google "German American internment."

The WWI internments were mostly supervised by a hustling young civil servant named J. Edgar Hoover. Among other possible spies, he managed to arrest 29 musicians from the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

In WWII, the U.S. evicted Germans from coastal areas, split up families, and demanded that Latin American countries deport several thousand of their German residents to the U.S.

The internees ranged from German citizens trapped by the hostilities, to long-term residents who had just never bothered to become citizens, etc. etc.

At least these were not people actually born in this country; but a significant number were refugees. It's a bit much, when you've fled Germany because of the Nazis, to then be interned in England because you're a 'German'.

Along with chemtrails and Obama birthers.

From 1942 to 1995, no less than 10 - that's TEN - investigations were held about the Pearl Harbor attacks.

Not one ever found any scrap of evidence that FDR knew in advance about the attack, or deliberately withheld information about the attack from the U.S. military. Some investigations were run by FDR-hating Republicans looking for exactly that sort of evidence.

I know we already have a resident expert in this group who has made a "detailed study of the history." And like all Truthers, he urged us to study the "original documents."

He should take his own advice. He said Germany had to declare war on the USA because Japan was its ally.

As I noted above, that is completely wrong. Under the terms of the Tripartite Pact, Germany only had to declare war on the US if the US attacked Japan first, which it obviously didn't do. And the 12/11/41 German declaration of war on the USA didn't even mention Japan once.

For anyone interested in the subject, the Wiki article is a good detailed start, with the usual links to a lot more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theory

Chemtrails are ban-worthy crazy-talk, so don't see why this shouldn't be.

Regarding my being banned from this group you wrote "As I recall, you were banned from the group for abusive PMs to one of the hosts."
In response I posted the evidence that your assertion was untrue:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/124020212#post7

At the end of that post I asked you, "Where did you get the idea that the emails led to the ban?"

You never answered. Would you mind addressing that question now?

I was prepared to forget the episode, but apparently you and onager are not.