And so are his Republicon buddies.

Maybe you need to reword that?

Trump is. And so are Romney, Ryan, and McConnell. I suspect this whole thing was a vast orchestrated con artist job.

Just to piss people off.

Not to mention while I can find the anecdote repeated multiple times, neither the canvasser who reported it, or the couple who were reported to have originally said it are named.

It could just as easily be fake as real.

And the only thing plural here is my reposted comment, I'm afraid.

I don't have two anecdotes.

Only one.



It does interest me that you've heard it before, however.

I haven't.

I thought that I was the only person in the world who remembered it.

I'm guessing not many. Obama won only 39% of the white vote in 2012 nationally. Hillary won only 37%. That two-point drop isn't significant enough to suggest there's a huge segment of the white population that voted for Obama but then turned around and voted for Donald Trump.

Both Obama and Hillary won 34% of the white male vote. Hillary did a point worse than Obama among female white voters. The same white voters who supported Romney supported Trump. The difference was that there were more of 'em in 2016 than we anticipated.

What's your point?

Obama did three-points worse among white voters in Ohio than John Kerry in 2004.

Why do you think that is?

I posted figures from 2012 and 2016. Clinton lost white voters in comparison to Obama's percentage. Also, in 8 years the demographics can change enough to account for 3 points in Ohio. Obama got 6% more than Clinton in Ohio in just 4 years. He got 10% more in Iowa.

Just as I can.

It implies the difference between Obama & Hillary solely came from Obama voters voting Trump. That's not accurate at all. The increase in Trump support among white voters could have come from Obama white voters either not voting or voting third party. 5% of whites voted third party in 2016 in Ohio, compared to only 2% from 2012. How many of those voters voted Obama in 2012? We don't know - but it's just as logical to assume a good chunk of them did as it is to assume the difference in Trump support among whites came from Obama voters four years ago. If that's the case, the difference is already halved, at least, by those voters. Moreover, you could couple Obama's support among white voters staying home AND an increase of new white voters who didn't vote in 2012. That would not suggest Obama white voters four years ago voted for Trump.

Especially when you look at the party ID and ideology compare it to 2012: In 2012, 38% of the voters who voted were Democrats. In 2016, it was just 34%. For Republicans, it was 31% in 2012 and 37% in 2016 - a near reversal. In ideologies, liberals made up two-percent fewer voters compared to 2012, while self-identifying conservatives saw an increase of four-percent - a total shift of six-percentage points against liberals from 2012. That points to a different electorate, which was more conservative than four years ago and more white - even if only marginally.

Bottom line: you're wrong. Your point can't be made without further understanding of the electorate. You provide no facts and no logical explanation beyond numbers that are unrelated. There are just as many arguments that could be made to suggest the difference in white support from 2012 to 2016 stems from Obama white voters staying home or voting third party. Which would hurt Hillary Clinton and help Trump.


Were there some white voters who voted for Trump and supported Obama four years ago? Sure - but they're a statistical anomaly.

Trump got up to 11% of Democrat voters in the rust belt. People should keep calling those Democrats racists. That sure will help win again. Just attack them, label them, hate on them and they will reward you by giving the GOP even more House and Senate seats from those rust belt states. Hell, before you know it the whole Supreme Court will be made up of radical right wingers. But hey...I guess some of you prefer that to actually admitting that elitism and snobbery is shrinking the party.

You're under the impression the exact same amount of people who voted in 2012 turned out and voted in 2016. That's just not the case. There are millions of new voters, people who weren't 18 in 2012, who cast their first ballot this election. There are thousands of new voters, people who weren't, say, citizens four years ago, who cast their vote for the first time. There's millions of new people who, for whatever reason, haven't voted in past elections, who cast their vote for the first time - either ever or in a long, long time. There are millions of people who voted in 2012 who have since died. It's faulty to assume percentages even matter here. They don't. Using those percentages assumes that every person who voted in 2012 cast their ballot in 2016 and nothing changed. That isn't the case.

In the end, there are Obama voters who voted Trump but I doubt it's significant enough to alter the election outcome. It's probably less than 10% nationally - which means a strong majority of white Trump voters voted against Obama in 2012.

Turnout

Wisconsin

2012: 72.9
2016: 69.4

Iowa

2012: 70.3
2016: 68.6

Ohio

2012: 64.5
2016: 64.1

Pennsylvania

2012: 59.5
2016: 62.2

Michigan

2012: 64.7
2016: 65.6

I think some people who have never voted for president before were exicted by Trump and voted, and I also think much of the base wasn't excited by Clinton and didn't vote when they could have. I have seen nothing to convince me that there is a large group of people who voted for Obama and then voted for Trump. That is an assumption.

That's what we've been saying. Lots more new voters excited by Trump's racism, fewer (but a smaller group) Democrats who weren't excited by Clinton.

I got my information from:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/10/1595415/-Obama-did-considerably-better-than-Clinton-with-the-white-vote-in-Rust-Belt-states-that-she-lost

http://www.cnn.com/election/results

and

http://www.electproject.org/


You can't discount my statistics I'm posting and then just make some comment with no data to back it up.

So that doesn't account for anywhere near the number of votes the Democrats lost from 2012 to 2016.

family/friends, much less more distant friends/acquaintances.

This was the strangest election of my lifetime.

So there are at least six. I don't think that is what swung the election. I think it was more votes from people who don't usually vote but really liked Trump, and fewer votes from our side after a horribly nasty primary where Hillary was not very popular among Democratic voters.

Tip O'Neill's famous "all politics is local" really did seem to hold true this year.

A lot about county-level voting patterns can be explained by the NACO maps:
http://explorer.naco.org/index.html?dset=County%20Economies&ind=Jobs%20Growth%20Rate%2C%20Recovery#

But the data also shows that in certain counties there were significant swings in Obama voters to Trump voters. Depressed areas, in which the talk about jobs/trade loomed large.

I don't think that this election will be very predictive of the next, to be honest. It just seems weird.

These are percentages of how many people voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 and voted for Trump in 2016. But you have no idea how many of these are the same people, i.e., how many people who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 then voted for Trump this year.

Red herring.

Wisconsin Obama got 6% more than Clinton

Obama 2012- 48% of the white vote
Clinton 2016 42% of the white vote

Iowa Obama got 10% more than Clinton

Obama 2012- 51% of the white vote
Clinton 2016-41% of the white vote

Ohio Obama got 6% more than Clinton

Obama 2012- 41% of the white vote
Clinton 2016- 35% of the white vote

Pennsylvania Obama got 2% more than Clinton

Obama 2012 42% of the white vote
Clinton 2016-40% of the white vote

Michigan Obama got 8% more than Clinton

Obama 2012- 44% of the white vote
Clinton 2016-36% of the white vote


Those percentages are white voters LOST from 2012 to 2016.
Here are figures for the percentage of votes Third Party candidates got AND how many DEMOCRATS voted for Trump.


Wisconsin

Stein 1.1
Johnson 3.6

7% of Democrats voted for Trump



Iowa

Stein 0.7
Johnson 3.7

10% of Democrats voted for Trump


Ohio

Stein 0.8
Johnson 3.2

12% of Democrats voted for Trump

Pennsylvania

Stein 0.8
Johnson 2.4

11% of registered Democrats voted for Trump

Michigan

Stein 1.1
Johnson 3.6

9% of Democrats voted for Trump


Go ahead and keep on calling those Democratic voters racists.

You're talking about percentages but you have absolutely no idea how many individual white people who voted for Obama turned around and voted for Trump this time around. You just know how many white people voted for Obama and Romney in 2012 and how many white people voted for Hillary and Trump in 2016.

So even if your claim that one cannot be a bigot if they voted for Obama held water - which it doesn't since voting for Obama does not absolve a bigot of their bigotry - the numbers you present don't make your point since they don't tell you how many of the white voters who voted for Obama voted for Trump in 2016. You don't know if those are the same voters.

But if you want to keep falling all over yourself defending voters who lined up with the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis to vote to put a racist in the White House, be my guest.

Wisconsin

7% of Democrats voted for Trump

Iowa

10% of Democrats voted for Trump

Ohio

12% of Democrats voted for Trump

Pennsylvania

11% of registered Democrats voted for Trump

Michigan

9% of Democrats voted for Trump

Those figures come from: http://www.cnn.com/election/results


Why do you keep calling your fellow Democrats racists and accusing them of agreeing with the KKK and Nazis?

100 people voted in 2012. 60 of them voted for Obama. 40 of them voted for Romney.

90 people voted in 2016. 40 of them voted for Obama. 50 of them voted for Trump.

How do you know that the 10 more votes that Trump got in 2016 were all people who voted for Obama in 2012?

And I accuse my fellow Democrats who voted for Trump of being racist and/or agreeing with the KKK and Nazis, because they willinglly agreed with the KKK and Nazis that a racist should be in charge of our country.

Apparently you see it differently. Good for you.

We're focusing on the states that Obama won that Clinton lost. These are states that normally go Blue and were lost. I was looking for the state by state figures and have not been able to find them. If you can find the figures just for the individual rust belt states I would like to see those.

In large numbers. I know one person in Michigan who did, and I know a lot of people and I talk politics with pretty much everybody. And I live in western Michigan, not in a big city area.

Those numbers show the DROP in white voters who voted for the Democrat from 2012 to 2016.

I added the additional information from this election that showed the percentage of registered Democrats that voted for Trump. Since Trump didn't do great with minorities it's pretty safe to assume that the majority of those Democrats that voted for Trump are white. The percentages of drop in 2012 to 2016 is very close to most of the state figures of the percentage of Democrats that voted for Trump.

That doesn't mean they voted for Trump.

Last edited Sun Dec 4, 2016, 11:47 PM - Edit history (1)

From what I read it's not about those but the number of people that voted. Obama turned out more voters than Hillary. A lot of them just stayed home.

Two of the states had higher turnout, two had lower and one was pretty much a tie. Turn out was similar...people just did not turn out for Clinton.

Turnout

Wisconsin

2012: 72.9
2016: 69.4

Iowa

2012: 70.3
2016: 68.6

Ohio

2012: 64.5
2016: 64.1

Pennsylvania

2012: 59.5
2016: 62.2

Michigan

2012: 64.7
2016: 65.6

A lot of butt hurt progressives wanted to vote as a protest so the green and libertarian parties got their voted from Clinton.

I know a few of them personally. They liked Obama and voted for him twice, but they think black people got their fair share, and now expect to rake in more than their fair share. They think Obama kept a lid on racial strife simply by being black, and they didn't trust Clinton to stand up to BLM and others because she is a guilty white liberal. So, yes, there was a big racial component to this.

And that MUST be acknowledged if the Democrats ever want to win again.

And it's time to stop labelling as "racist" every white person who voted for him. After all, he got some black and Latino votes, so what do we call those voters?

Seeing people call all of them racists is really chaffing my butt the last few days.

Senior Jr. executive VP's of forced inoffensive normative socialization & interaction with upper management.

We love our jobs, but we're going to be downsized in the hostile takeover by Righteous Outrage Inc. Their motto is "We'll make you so angry you'll vote for us."

Here at R.O.I we bring bad things to life!

......

whisper:"and then watch you die"

They voted for a person who repeatedly showed disdain for large swaths of people based on their ethnicity and gender. He's a hateful person willing to sacrifice anyone for his own purposes. He has no morals or values.

Anyone able to vote for such a person cannot justify that vote to me.

End of story.

And for the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many Democrats are going through this much trouble defending them while ignoring the black and brown people in their own party who are deeply offended, not only by Trump voters but by our own fellow Democrats who want to bring them into our fold with us.

Let them carry the burden of their vote without asking us to excuse them.

People I disagree with.

Who, exactly, is supposedly ignoring the black and brown people? Why do you seem to find it so impossible that someone can care about the well being of ALL people?

Up to 11% of Democrats in rust belt states voted for Trump. Maybe before you call 1/10th of the Democrats in a state racists you ought to ask WHY they voted for him...the REAL reason. Or would you rather permanently alienate those voters so that Democrats NEVER win any elected office again? They aren't all racists and many people find it bigoted and offensive that people keep calling their fellow Democrats names.

Enough of the pissing and moaning about the supposed shortcomings of Democrats. Enough of the slack being cut to people stupid and petulant enough to cast a vote for a douchebag like Trump. And enough of the nitpicking and gloating of the Bernie acolytes. This isn't getting us anywhere. Enough.

They don't understand how racism works, oppression theory, systemic inequity vs. individual attitudes, etc.

Folks ought to read each of the following:

1) http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/why_did_some_white_obama_voters_for_trump.html

2) http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/there_is_no_such_thing_as_a_good_trump_voter.html

Anyway, I'm in agreement that there's no excuse for supporting Trump. As I wrote here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512630903.

Because if you begin to understand why people vote the way they do, you can begin to understand how to create an appeal to them. Not appealing to them has left us with Trump. In 2020, I want us to know how to attract enough voters to leave Trump just a bad memory.

who find an excuse to vote for the likes of Donald Trump. Those folks are not going to change. I'd rather spend time and effort going after those who did not vote and get them involved. They may be reachable. Trump voters, not so much.

And on top of that they WILL lose more house and senate seats. Then the liberal judges will retire and GOP presidents will have so much control over everything they can do ANYTHING they want to.

But hey, shrink that tent. Don't every consider you might just be wrong. Keep losing.

Hopefully a moderate party that isn't so goddamned snobby, sanctimonious, elitist and selfish will be born out of the death of the Democratic Party. It will die, you know.


Big tent my ass...

There are plenty of those in the states you're talking about. It is possible to regain those states by increasing Democratic turnout and not pandering to Trump voters.

Your underlying premise is flawed and your response has little to do with the post you responded to.

"isn't so goddamned snobby, sanctimonious, elitist and selfish "

Thanks for exposing your true motives. I'll know I can safely breeze on by.

It's not OK.

I stand up against bigotry whenever I see it. I'm seeing it here directed at white voters. When I heard some dumbass make a racist comment about flying the Confederate Flag just to piss off black people I looked him right in the eye and told him he was an ignorant bigoted asshole. If someone is REALLY a racist then call them on it, I'm all for that. However, if someone is going to start tossing around generalizations, stereotypes and accuse people they don't even know I'm not going to let that slide. That is racist too and is just as ugly no matter what side it comes from. You don't have to be white to behave in a racist way.

Not at white voters in general. Actually, it's really about anyone who voted for Trump. If someone is one race but hates people from Mexico or Islamic people or African Americans and that's why they voted for Trump, they're doing the same thing.

If it's based on whom someone voted for and not their skin color, it isn't racism.

I am familiar with that case as I shared the story on social media when it happened. He's not a typical white voter...he's alt-right.

as means of holding up your argument.

How many white males voted for Obama twice and then for Trump? I haven't seen that information. I imagine it's not possible to get. That is the base of your argument and is flawed.

"He showed up and spoke to the rust belt."

So did Clinton. It's false that she didn't. It's a different form of the same arguments we saw early in the primaries between Sanders and Clinton supporters. For many that fight never truly went away.

How is one deemed not racist because they voted for Obama? Your argument hinges on this.

The same way one can't be deemed racist if they claim to have a black friend . . .

I like Hillary, she would have been a great president. That being said...she made a mistake by not addressing the economic concerns of the rust belt Democrats and she lost them to an orange asshole. Hindsight is 20/20. If you think Democrats can ever win the white house again without the rust belt states then people should keep right on alienating those Obama Democrats that voted for Trump by calling them racists. That will teach them, alright! Bash them and push them right to the GOP so they can vote for GOP downticket candidates in 2 years.

That is a truly false narrative. I'm not sure why it is being promoted considering how easy it is to prove false. Clinton talked to crowds regularly about jobs and the economy. She also talked about Trump. Trump mainly talked about other people, including Clinton, and threw in some about jobs and the economy along the way.

Your whole premise is false.

You also continued with the flawed "voted twice for Obama and then Trump" argument. My argument above stands in its critique and you addressed none of it in your reply. The argument you are making is seriously flawed.

attitudes at the door if they come over to the Dem party.

Won't happen. By catering to them to get their vote the Dem party will have to move to the right, and the further right the more votes we will lose from our loyal base.

This one included.

I'm not a republican because I don't want to associate and rub shoulders with a people who tolerate racists in their midst.

You apparently never saw any of her stump speeches.

They voted for one, and they didn't care enough about it to NOT vote for him. That tells me all I need to know about them.

racist his top adviser in the White House.

Crickets from them.

so we know damn well this is not6 damn true. They hate us which is proven by this lie that their kind spews. Their kind spews.

If you do it because you think, rightly or wrongly, that you will get something out of your vote, you are STILL supporting racism and sexism.

If you support racism and sexism you are, by definition, racist and sexist. You have performed a racist and sexist act. That makes you racist and sexist.

doesn't mean he isn't racist against the group.

this is one of those "some of my best friends are ...................." type things.

Trump is an act of racism and sexism. They can't have voted for him unless that was OK with them.

I am also troubled by the insistence that we need to cater to those people, when there have been multiple threads proving that the "white working class" of the rust belt DIDN'T vote for him. The ones for whom the economy was most important voted for Hillary. There is nothing to prove that the ones who voted for Trump were the ones that voted for Obama in those states, though that seems to be the narrative that has stuck. There is no proof of that.

We do not need to embrace the racists and sexists to win the next election, and if we do embrace them we will certainly LOSE the next election.

We need to go after the ones who didn't vote who now see what a mistake that was. I am furious at them, but I can believe they are just woefully ignorant, and I am willing to work with them. I will not have anything to do with racists and sexists.

That's the problem. Some people here are being so deeply intolerant and irrationally devoted to their opinion that EVERY white person who voted for Trump is a racist. They are saying some very hateful things. They are being bigots, plain and simple. It's hypocritical and needs to stop.


Definition of bigot
: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

People who voted for trump are racists and sexists. If you perform a racist and sexist act, such as giving power to a racist and sexist, you are a racist and a sexist.

The people in the rust belt who voted for trump did not do so because of jobs. Those in the rust belt for whom jobs was the most important issue voted for Hillary.

And I'm not saying that every white person who voted for Trump is a racist, I am saying that every person who voted for Trump is a racist.

And I am not saying that every man who voted for Trump is a sexist, I am saying that every person who voted for Trump is a sexist.

Yes, I include people of color and women. People do act against their own self interests.

And watch us get our ass kicked even worse in 2018 and 2020.

When will people here understand that we NEED these people to accomplish our agenda. People need to suck it up and realize we need a bigger tent than the west and east coasts in order to do anything.

This isn't a "yeah, it'd be nice if these people voted for us to give us 350 electoral votes as opposed to 270" issue. It's more of a "we need these people to vote for us, or we'll have 4 more years of Trump and Republican control of Congress."

RBG, Breyer, and Kennedy may last through 4 years of Trump, but can we expect them to last through 8?

I don't think Trump will be replacing him.

summarize them for you:

First, the people in the rust belt for whom the economy was most important voted for Hillary. The people in the rust belt for whom other issues were most important voted for Trump. This means that the ones who voted for him ARE racist and sexist. It isn't about the economy for them, it isn't about the jobs, it's about the "other" and the power that the "other" has achieved.

Second, the narrative that "they voted for Obama before they voted for Trump" has no evidence in the numbers to back it up. It is more likely that they voted for Obama and then they didn't vote in this election. The likelihood is that this election fired up an entirely different segment of the "sometimes votes" group, and the segment we needed stayed home.

Third, that large number of people who didn't vote in this election are about to get schooled in Trump University. They are going to suffer, and they will be a little less ignorant going into the next election. They are where we need to work to get the voters we need.

If we go after what we are erroneously characterizing as the "rust belt white working class" which has been proven not to be any kind of bloc at all, and whose values are in direct opposition to ours, we will certainly lose the next election.

voting for Hillary was sexism.

It's the great unspoken force in our culture. I think it is even more powerful than racism, and I think racism is a very powerful force in our culture.

Whether that makes them racist or not doesn't really matter.

They didn't think that being a racist piece of shit was enough to disqualify someone from being President.

And that, on its own, is fucking disgusting.

Sid

that "nigger". He is from AFRICA. Very upsetting at the time, but now I get anonymous tweets and messages to my email calling me all sorts of new types of nigs, I guess thing will get worse. I guess you'll tell me next that the 'obama bumper sticker guy' that called me a nigger because HE cut ME off was not racist. Or my stepdad who voted Obama but calls us blackfolks nigger rich and Biafra aint no racist either cause he sleeps with my mama?

Last edited Sun Dec 4, 2016, 11:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Try again.