Well....we certainly wouldn't want to hurt other people's feelings now would we?

Blergh.....

Luckily I've never been mistaken for diplomatic or tactful. I don't care if someone doesn't like a spade being called a spade. I personally feel society has swung way too far on the pendulum in the "let's not step on anyone's feelings" arena.

I wake up at night in a cold sweat, with this overwhelmingly incidious feeling of pending doom. I feel like right now we're on the precipice of losing literally every major advancement the US has made for women, minorities, LGBTQ and the environment, and yet people are still like....gotta make sure we don't insult anybody.

Fuck that!

of their "group" harassing or abusing people of another "group." It feels like something we can do to hold the tide.

And from a person-on-the-ground position, that's something anyone can do. I'm more worried about getting that mindset instilled and acted upon up the chain of command, so to speak.

are misogynists, but they deserve the term. They think they are special and men don't hate THEM, just those other women they are so looking down on and jealous of at the same time.

It is everyone else but not them. The religious beliefs of the Evangelical right promote this. They would go shopping in Walmart wearing their trump/pence tee shirts with their jean skirts using SNAP and WIC to buy. Reality will take awhile for it to sink in what they have done.

That if this country were all white we'd have the biggest social safety net in western civilization. I think I believe that. THEY deserve help. Women of color don't. That's how they think. Sorry if I sound bitter. The electoral college choice is till getting to me.

Look at what is happening with respect to the meth/opioid/heroin problem and where it actually IS a problem.

When crack was a scourge in far too many communities of color with extremely high unemployment rates, no resources were to be allocated to these "welfare mooches", "crack house prostitutes", and gang-banging savages", who were told they needed to "pull up their pants" and take "personal responsibility" for "their behavior".

But what is different now?

But let the churches feed and take care of them. They think that is the answer but as history has already proved it does not work.

Many of these women have the notion that legalizing abortion takes their power away from men. That power is pregnancy. They know as well as anybody how much women are fucked over in the labor market and they can't make it without being married to a man. It is a fact the job market is heavily against women in general and single women in particular. Pregnancy in their eyes binds these men to them. Taking that power away through abortion and contraception gives men the ability to easily leave them and force them into destitution.

But they also believe that men are superior. Women should not be in positions of leadership. They are against abortion to mainly shame unmarried women so they can feel better about themselves.

These women believe they have no options other than marriage and children. Single women are a threat to them because THEY could be in the same destitute boat that most single women find themselves in. There is no point kidding ourselves about how single women fare economically. The vast majority of these women are poor or on the brink of being poor since the job market denigrates what women do in order that women become dependent on men in exchange for sexual access and free domestic labor. Forcing men to be bound to them through pregnancy ensures these women will not be abandoned.

Women who vote this way are well aware of how shitty men can be and how they can treat women. Abortion frees men up from any responsibility toward them in these women's eyes.

figure out what that vote actually did.

Putting down other women is a way for them to get ahead.

The people who voted for Trump were some combination of selfish, ignorant, bigoted, and fearful. Trump's campaign deliberately triggered all those negative emotions.

it's a sad thing that happens to all oppressed people -- They internalize the low opinion.of themselves they see

everywhere around them, so they dislike themselves and others like them.

Well said.

I've known women that will only have friendships with men because they don't trust or like other women. All women are bad, except for them of course.

Knowing how many of the people we want to liberate are complicit in their own and others' oppression.

Like other oppressed people, women often internalize the low opinion in which they are held. It's one of the more tragic results of being diminished, ridiculed and demeaned by the dominant group.

and I apologize for the 53%(!!) of us who voted for Dump. I honestly can't understand them. I KNOW they've been victimized in some way; we all have. Whether it's hostile work environments, unequal wages, catcalls on the street, domestic violence, pussy-grabbing, or rape, women of ALL colors have experienced some of these.

And they voted for the pussygrabber.

and I was really wowed by that 53%. I though the pussy grabbing tape was going to bring out the women in droves to vote against him! Really misunderestimated that!

I know everything said here about misogynistic women is true, I just find it hard to believe there are quite so many of them.

Many women have been convinced they are lesser, and that feminism is evil.

People's childish and hateful Ids. (Freudian Id)

Now what we do? They are already sore winners. Gloating isn't even the right word for it. They have distain for everyone that is not a white male. The democrats will just go along with them. Pelosi did everything that Bush wanted. Democrats need to call them out. Instead the democrats will go hundle in a corner and let the bullys run over them. They need to object to everything that the republicans want to do. They need to make statements why it is bad for Americans and let the republicans hang themselves with no one to blame but themselves. They will have the house, senate and judical? Sorry I smell a rat.

occurs in the political arena.

When that first law is officially proposed that takes away women's rights or medicare or voting rights, I will watch to see what the Democratic politicians do.

In the meantime, I think all we can do is make bigotry and sexism something that is not tolerated in our own spaces. When we see someone from "our group" harassing or abusing someone from "another" group, we need to call it out. For example, I am a white woman. There was that story of a bunch of white men harassing a woman in a hijab on the subway. From this day, I will consider it my moral duty to call out people like that if I see them. I think it's the only way that people of good will from all persuasions can make ourselves safe, and we need to do it together.

Hillary's motto seemed facile at the time, but love truly does trump hate.

They are getting set to gut every law they see as getting in their way. They are going to go after ACA, SSI, Medicare and Medicaid, even regulations and laws that will affect your jobs, rights and even your food. If the democrats compromise on any of it it will be their fault when it fails and it will fail. The republicans need to eat this and own it. Trump is already causing international incidents and they idiot isnt even in office yet.

on WOMEN"S RIGHTS (don't forget women's rights in your list, please! They are probably the most likely to be taken away) ACA and SSI and Medicare/aid and the Republicans make everyone's life so miserable that the Congress flips in the mid-term.

They need a backbone and don't compromise.

Start standing up to right wing bullies. Get in their way.

Look in the damn mirror!

It has always been a frustration to me that she took her rights for granted, that she didn't speak up for feminist principles, that she thought that was something that had been achieved and she didn't need to worry about it.

Well. This election result has made her and all her friends very political. They are paying attention and they are asking questions, and they are pissed.

and my daughter and her friends. There is hope, but this is such a huge blow. I'm appalled at the women I know who voted for trump. I can't even speak to them. I don't go out and socialize any more because they'll be there. Maybe I'll get over it one of these days, but these women voted out of hatred. I cannot socialize with these people anymore.

and it's a pretty accurate picture of what's gone on since I started paying attention in the 60's. Interesting view of Carter, but true.

Our 90 year old aunt in Texas loves to say she's hanging on just to see what happens next. Last week she told me she doesn't care anymore. She perked up when I told her I was going to DC to protest, made me feel good about it. Says she would go if she was younger.

Gonna put a DU on my sign hoping to find other DUer's I'll post it a day or two before.

The posts that don't sink are usually due to arguments. Trump voters are often misogynistic. No arguments there.

long conversations about how the hatred of people of color is a strong political force, and I think we all agree on that too.

I don't think it's that we all agree on it that makes it sink. If it were, those conversations about racism would sink too.

I think it's that the rank sexism that has occurred and will continue occurring isn't seen as that important by many here.

They're just cool with sexism and racism. It's not a deal-breaker for them.

When the economy is back in flames, they'll trot back to vote for us. But there's no reason to contort ourselves to try and win their votes, because their default position is Republican.

Does that mean that I don't care about global warming? Nope.

Other circumstances were involved in my choice to buy a gas-burning car over an electric/hybrid one. Money, for starters. My current car cost me about a thousand bucks and it still runs well.

I indeed think that many Trump voters are racist/misogynist, but I also think some of them held their noses about that stuff because of other issues more important to them -- abortion or global trade deals as a couple examples.

I'd rather be more evidence-based, looking at polls and the like to figure out if Democrats can make some inroads anywhere without abandoning core principles.

But you are okay with adding fractionally more carbon to the atmosphere.

Hey, the same goes for me. In fact, I have a truck!

But I'm not cool with racism and misogyny. They are deal-breakers for me in a way that my slightly expanded carbon footprint is not.

Not so, these Trump voters.

And like I said, when the economy is back in flames, they'll trot back to vote for us. But their default position is Republican, both for the bigotry and for some of the other issues you cite.

We aren't going to compromise on abortion. We have already compromised on guns, but we'll never be able to out-gun the Republicans.

And, here's a little fact that most people don't seem to realize: The Democratic Party is LESS supportive of international trade agreements than the Republicans. We are the ones who insist for greater protections for labor. We are the ones who seek to place greater limits on corporate power.

Conservative propagandists who distort truth haven't helped matters.

and with jobs voted for Hillary. So that's the global trade deals off the table.

As for abortion, if they are making their choice based on that one issue, they were never ours to begin with, and they never WILL BE with us, obviously.

Those who voted for trump did not vote for him over economic concerns, and Democrats don't switch over to another candidate because of that candidate's anti-abortion stance.

Much more likely than the idea that non-sexists and non-racists voted for a raging sexist racist is the idea that trump brought out a segment of the "sometimes votes" crowd that did not come out in the last election, and a percentage of Obama voters stayed home. I really don't see how we can logically say it was the same people.

A vote for trump was an act of racism and sexism.

I was assigned to write a report on abortion for a sociology class in high school and argued against all abortion after reading some (one-sided) books about it at a local library. The teacher later skewered me, solely based on my opinion, and gave me a poor grade! Lol. She showed such animosity that I resented her and became more entrenched for awhile. Her main argument? It's the woman's body and her choice. That didn't work well on me because it seemed too similar to parents arguing they could do whatever they wanted to their children because they were THEIR kids.

I later imagined myself in the shoes of a woman who was raped and how it seemed barbaric to force her to carry the baby to full term, perhaps even risking her life in the process. I was previously hung up on the idea of abortion being "murder," but the well-being of the woman in that kind of uncontrolled situation was the first crack in my position.

What later flipped me over to pro-choice more than anything else? Fetuses don't even show human-like brainwaves (which still exist among sleeping adults and sometimes even among comatose adults) until about 22 weeks or so. That wrecked my previous belief that it's "murder" of a person in my mind.

There's been other influences too, such as my acceptance on practical terms. Many women will seek an abortion anyway, so why put them back in the coat hanger days?

Anyway, my main point is that people sometimes change when they're better informed.

I agree that some of the anti-abortion folks will never budge, however. One problem among religious people, I presume, is that they believe there's some invisible spirit put in a fetus at conception. Once people accept those kinds of ideas, not based on ANY evidence, they're probably lost causes.

Democrats to pursue because your position would be one that is in direct opposition to Democratic values.

Likewise a vote for trump, which is a vote for an open and avowed racist and sexist. The position of someone who is willing to put that into power is something in direct opposition to Democratic values, and they are not the people we should waste time on or try to appease with our political positions. It is more important than ever that we hold our values, not give them up because we think we'll get a prize if we do.

There are other places to go for the votes we need and they are much more likely to bear fruit.

And if the Democratic party gives in on any issues of WOMEN'S RIGHTS, civil rights, medicare, Medicaid, social security, they will lose me and millions more like me in the next election, and they will lose the next election.

I'd prefer to look elsewhere for votes, like among poor people (of all skin colors) who might have such a strong sense of hopelessness that they stopped voting long ago.

I still have hope that people can change if they're better informed. There's some white people who truly don't think African Americans have disadvantages compared to them! Not just in individual terms (like me seeing SOME black people who are far better off than me in so many ways), but in a general sense! Instead of labeling them as if they're forever unreachable (the way that my old sociology teacher behaved toward me with a simplistic "woman's choice" stance), showing them how they're wrong might sway some of them.

happened to be the first one you heard telling you the truth about abortion, whether it resonated with you at the time or not.

If she had said, "Well, OK Buckeye, we'll just agree to disagree on abortion and move on to talking about social security," do you think that would have helped you learn any faster that a woman's choices about her body are her own and no one else's?

If we are going to reach any of those people, it is not by watering down our message. They need to come up against the message over and over, strongly, if it is going to have any hope of getting through.

It is what the Republicans do. For years, they made up a narrative about Hillary. Now it is largely seen as the truth about her, though no one can tell you why they think she is "dishonest" or has a lot of "baggage."

It was other people and arguments that changed me.

Her argument was essentially, "Women can do it because they carry the fetus." That didn't work on me because it was too akin, in my mind, to parents arguing they could kill their own (born) kids because they were their parents. "Controlling women" had no bearing on my thought process back then, just like I didn't consider it "controlling parents" if I opposed their arguments to freely to kill their own children.

If some Democrats support abortion at any stage of development, even days before they're born like Trump tried to portray in a debate, I honestly don't support that (even now) unless there's some compelling health arguments for it.

However, everyone needs to make compromises in life. Given that very late-term abortions are not even remotely common, I'd prefer to remain on the side of pro-choice (even if that kind of abortion was openly embraced and emphasized in the party platform) rather than take a stubborn anti-abortion position.

Most of my decisions involve weighing pros vs. cons, and I think most people do that. Don't they?

EDIT: And my decisions often involve my sense of probabilities too since I'm not all-knowing and never will be. It's a scientific approach as Richard Feynman described here:

"Does that mean that I don't care about global warming...?"

I think it means you simply rationalize any actions of yours which are counter to your alleged convictions.

There's also poor public transportation where I live with few places like grocery stores within walking distance, and there's family obligations in my life which makes moving difficult.

Many decisions aren't cut-and-dried.

I have to say that I could not agree more with the conclusion reached by Squinch. I felt it all along, I and was concerned that misogyny would rear its ugly head. Too many times I heard women state that they hated Hillary, and they were never able to give a concrete reason as to why. I have a theory about why some women voted for Trump, and a good many of the ones I knew were in an abusive relationship. Somehow in some dark recess of their brain, they responded to his authoritarian manner. I would just shake my head in disbelief as to how any woman could respond to such a repulsive character. Now here we are faced with the most dangerous circumstances with the possibility of all our hard fought rights being taken away.

the GOP's fabricated depiction of Hillary, based on nothing but so deeply ingrained.

Even here in what is supposed to be a Democratic bastion, there was so much talk about Hillary's "baggage" when that SHOULD have been depicted, at least by us, as "the lies the GOP has always told about Hillary."

We Democrats, as a group, acted like GOP puppets. It was shameful.

Before you accuse me of downplaying sexism, look at the facts.

I don't see nightly news reports of women being killed and beaten just for being women. There are no neo-anti-women groups on the watch list of Southern Poverty Law Center, the DoJ watch list or the FBI watch list. I haven't seen any individual or group calling for the mass extermination or removal of women from the US.

Looking at it objectively, Obama had a much higher mountain to climb, yet he had no problem making it.

Men need women. Maybe that is why they can end up hating on them more. Racists want segregation. But from women, they don't want that kind of separation.

And there are women being beaten and killed for some reason related to their being a woman.

Spousal abuse is a lot more rampant than meets the eye. I read recently that it is expected to escalate under tRump, since he is the poster boy for sexual assault. He and his sexist supporters approved that message. The article went on to say that we will never really know the stats since most will not report it out of fear of being believed since the Prez has given it a thumbs up.

"I don't see nightly news reports of women being killed and beaten just for being women..."
Hence, because you yourself don't see a report on something that happens to one out of every four women, it's not as big a deal.

"here are no neo-anti-women groups on the watch list of Southern Poverty Law Center..."
Just go to the site, engage in remedial reading and realize how absurdly inaccurate your statement is.

"I haven't seen any individual or group calling..."
Again, anecdotal evidence is merely your bias pretending to be important,.

An emotional, readable book, that talks about a group of family-center folks who see rich people as smart (even when they con poor people out of money), who see government programs that they use as something they deserve--but when other people (not like them) use the programs they're moochers. These are families that see men as head of the household, even though there are broken homes run by women. These are people who see smart people as stupid.
These aren't just hillbilly folks. Cities are rimmed with trailer parks and dumpy little towns just filled with people like this. How do you educate someone who thinks education is stupid? That two hands are all that's needed for a job? How do you tell these people that robots are going to be driving trucks soon? That McDonald's is working on a fully-automated shop?
The mills aren't going to reopen. The mines may open, but it will be machines, not men doing the work.
These are the Trump voters.
These are the voters who once belonged to unions and voted for Democrats in strong numbers.
Trump reached them by lying to them.
Bigly.
And they didn't care. Because they just want things they way they used to be.

So Democrats, get to work. Put people in every elected post that can be won. School board, town council, every post. Then get the gerrymandered map fixed. Then get rid of the Electoral college.
Then start educating these people, whether they like it or not.

away when they keep repeating the RW frame of Hillary's being a "flawed" or "badly flawed" candidate.

"Flawed" as opposed to Jesus Christ perhaps ... but in comparison to a living, breathing contemporary human being, no! Anyone who posts that or anything like it goes straight to my Ignore List!

Trashing posts and reporting abuse don't always work as they should. But the Iggy List does. At least I personally never have to see their vitriol here after that. And I don't miss them one whit.

Last edited Sun Dec 4, 2016, 04:35 PM - Edit history (1)

...DFT's (Donald Fucking Trump's) fenale voters are married to similarly loutish men, perhaps making his disgusting behavior not so disgusting to them because it what they live with every day, so it feels normal.

HRC's "flaws" and bogus "scandals" are not the reason these guys voted against her. They voted against her because as a woman she "emasculates" them. White men are so privileged, they don't even realize how privileged they are.

I mean, WHAT sane person on the planet would vote for a totally unqualified MADMAN over a vastly qualified woman except sexism? It makes NO logical sense whatsoever.

These people who voted for him deserve no sympathy, no support, only contempt. They should be embarrassed over their votes.

I think a lot of what you say is true, especially with the "Bernie or Busters"...

I think a lot of them were young guys with Mommy Issues.

Only a massive economic crash like the Great Depression would make them listen to reason.

Hostility to woman, holy shit yes, it was a mainstay of his campaign and his supports ate it up. The 53% of women that voted for him breaks my heart, however I will say that I believe way more than half of them are abused. I will bet my bottom dollar on that.

but I can see it now that you point it out.

but what if they stayed home because they are racist and/or sexist?

Charges of sexism and racism are probably fine in the aggregate, or when letting off steam, but if it comes to confronting an individual Trump voter, it may be more useful to keep in mind the various MSM and fake media lies about Clinton. Perhaps all we can safely conclude is that what registered to us as obvious racism and sexism was simply less important to them than the Clinton mythology.

If there are Trump voters you care about, or who you think might flip, leaving them room to save a little face is polite--if possibly more than they strictly deserve.