I've seen it first hand in Florida in 2004. Still going on...

We deserve proof of accuracy, and the ability to verify.

Why is it anytime somebody compares the "exit polls" with the machine results, there are so often (always?) wide differences between the two, statistically significant differences. At one time, before the use of proprietary machines with software supplied and calibrated by the private companies themseves, the exit polls nearly always matched the vote results pretty closely. Now, the only way they match is if the polling companies "adjust" the results of the exit polls to match the machine results.

Anyway, here's a case of some exit polls set up and conducted by a private individual, Beth Clarkson, a statistician at Wichita State University working with the NIAR (the Nat'l Institute of Aviation Research), and not a polling organization whose reputation might somehow be tarnished if their results did not match the machine results.

Kansas 2016: read it and weep.

http://showmethevotes.org/

the machine's makers and programmers to have a small percentage of D votes flip to R - just enough to make it count, but not enough to arouse real suspicion. I think they've been doing it since W, and Obama's margin was simply larger than the percentage of flips they built in. There is nothing too low for those ratfuckers to stoop to. I honestly was hoping Stein's audits would reveal machine tampering and blow the lid off the whole thing. I was hoping for a indictments and for the scandal to result in a complete overhaul of the whole electronic voting process. Might as well shit in one hand and wish in the other....that whole thing ended with a whimper....

they have been doing this in Wisconsin since 2010. Walker didn't win 3 elections, they cheated. We know that. Missing 7,000 votes found in a Republican lady's car trunk. Just the amount the Judge lost by in 2011. Yeah, co inky dink.

... states

If their nominee merrily committed a federal crime by soliciting a criminal break-in to access private and/or governmental information -- and by a foreign agent to boot -- why on earth should we think their rabid followers wouldn't lie about vote totals and such?

Add to that Hillary was winning in the polls virtually every day of the campaign but somehow the one day donnie is ahead is Election Day.

Hmmmmmm.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there just isn't any that point to the Russians hacking our election to the level where they were actually flipping votes.

Seriously. This is where we start looking like birthers.

I saw stories & videos of votes switching as they were cast, for both candidates in different cases; those machines were taken out.
But so far NO evidence of russians doing anything. Even Pres Obama has said so.

I really hope posters aren't peddling these theories for the next 4 years with no evidence.

than there is that Obama was born in Kenya.

.....and why didn't Dems holla loudly when they saw voter suppression going on during the primaries?

Just asking.

and I'm glad you were the first to challenge this rather ludicrous notion. We must guard against wild conspiracy theories because we are lowering ourselves to the other side's level by grasping at straws. Good on you for pointing that out.

In the words of an Obama administration official in regards to the Russian hacking:

"There was nothing done on Election Day, so it must have worked."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-obama-said-putin-red-phone-about-election-hack-n697116


In the words of President Obama himself:

"This was an obsession that dominated the news coverage," Obama said during his end-of-the-year press conference of the rolling release of hacked emails from high-level Democrats, including Clinton's campaign chairman, John Podesta. "This was not some elaborate, complicated espionage scheme."

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-12-16/obama-media-more-to-blame-than-russia-in-election


The sooner you can make reality your friend, the better!

... less what some unnamed Obama official said relative to the matter without any proof seeing there was ENOUGH proof or actionable intel to tell congress.

The last paragraph has little to nothing to do with the subject at hand... I'm talking about the voting machines and not the DNC.

I'm not going to make my reality FUD reality ... just report what's not in dispute.

Obama and the intel community say there was no hacking of the machines I'll take that to the bank

... proffered has nothing to little to do with that.

Those are the droids I'm looking for

Hope Santa Claus pays you a visit in 3 days. Surely you still believe in Santa too.

Merry Christmas!

... were going after them.

I believe the 16 intel agencies vs the Russians and Conservatives

#3. It's PROVEN that there were irregularities in this past election. #4. Election activists are trying to get the evidence but can't.

swing state. Really from his point of view, from their side, it's a miracle they won the EC. And by thin margins in a lot of those states.

It's just miraculous enough to wonder if there was not some wrongdoing.

Probably not the Russians, but the local Republicans.

I saw a DRE that would change a vote from a Democrat to the Republican. I stopped and demanded that the machine be taken down and asked for it to be impounded. After some confusion, the (Repub) ES eventually had me escorted out and put the machine back in service. A technician "reset" the machine, and could just as easily been erasing the evidence. The tech worked for the DRE manufacturer. It was NOT a calibration error - but my wife and I stood there and even used a different ballot card and watched it flip a single election over and over before the review page. Out of a bank of machines, we only saw one that flipped votes in one close congressional election.

I also know that some good scholars have analyzed data here in Fl and concluded the patterns of undervotes and contrasts with non-DREs in the same precincts and correlations with other ballot initiatives don't make sense. Also, pre and post polls - even ones in the parking lot right after the voting - contradict the published results.

At least in Florida, there is no question in my mind that SOME precincts or counties have hacking of DREs. There will never be "extraordinary evidence" because the GOP has been successful in court (here in FL) at preventing valid recounts, software examination, or even effective poll watching.

I don't think the Russians even need to have been involved since it's gone on here since 2000, but the tabulators and DREs are vulnerable. It doesn't take but a handful of machines and a small manipulation to turn a state like Florida.

...there's something there to find.

We just don't know what, exactly, or who the perps were.

Didn't have to be by Russians, the GOP has been doing it for a while.
Voting machines need a paper trail and hand count audit.

" Just three counties – Macomb County, MI; York County, PA and Waukesha County, WI – elected Donald Trump, per Cook Report. "

Michigan:
Macomb: Election Systems & Software Model 100 {336 precincts}
Macomb: Premier/Diebold (Dominion) AccuVote OS

Wayne: Election Systems & Software Model 100 {1007 precincts}
* * *
Pennsylvania
Lancaster: Hart InterCivic eSlate DRE-Dial {242 precincts}
Lancaster: Hart InterCivic eScan Optical Scan

York: Sequoia (Dominion) AVC Edge DRE-Touchscreen {159 precincts}
* * *
Wisconsin
Waukesha: Election Systems & Software DS200 Optical Scan {152 precincts}


MACHINES' DOCUMENTED MULTIPLE SECURITY CONCERNS
Excerpts from Verified Voting:

*ES&S M100 is easy to fool with counterfeit ballots.
*ES&S DS200: if the unit is powered on without a memory stick inserted, the interface screen becomes unresponsive.
*Premier/Diebold: the keys for the AccuVote-OS are the same for all AccuVote-OS machines and are easily pickable with readily available tools.
*Hart system: network interfaces are not secured against direct attack and there is little/no use of protective cryptography.
*Sequoia AVC Edge: significant security weaknesses throughout the Sequoia system raise serious questions as to whether the Sequoia software can be relied upon to protect the integrity of elections. Every software mechanism for transmitting election results and every software mechanism for updating software lacks reliable measures to detect or prevent tampering .
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Election Systems & Software:
https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/ess/m100/ { Michigan }
https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/ess/ds200/ {Wisconsin }

Premier/Diebold (Dominion):
https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/premier-diebold/accuvote-os/ {MI}

Hart InterCivic:
https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/hart-intercivic/escan/ {Pennsylvania }
https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/hart-intercivic/eslate/ {Pennsylvania }

Sequoia (Dominion):
https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/sequoia/avc-edge/ {Pennsylvania }

I recall members on DU saying that their early votes were being flipped.
Then, of course, DU was crashed election day/night.

Count on it. Even if it can't be quantified, it definitely happened. Maybe not even by the Russians, but even on State/Local levels tampering happened for sure.

And it seems somewhat likely there was significant cooperation elicited either by ideological collusion or blackmail, or a combination of the two.

I've pondered this -- how could any American do such a thing? -- and I've come to the conclusion that these people choose to believe the things they're told (Muslim, Rigged, Pizzagate) and feel threatened by the future and new ideas enough that they're unconcerned with the means to their ends.

They're at war. We haven't felt it yet, but we will -- they've declared war on us, and on the future. And they needed an ally with serious state-level computer skills to engage in some major Ratfckery. And that Putin is a handsome fellow, donchaknow.

I'm thinking more along the line that votes were added. There were plenty of areas that came in at over 100 percent voter turnout with muddied reasons, and wasn't there about 5000 votes taken from him before the Wisconsin recount that were considered over counts? How many over counts were missed?

strange how Hillary tended to lose in areas with no paper backup.

But, once again, the Democrats will roll over without a fight. Because pretending our elections are honest is more important than making sure they are.

NPR did a treacly story about Trump's whiz-bang "digital" team headquartered in Houston that supposedly used mountains of state-of-the art technology to send out Tweets.



What do you think they were doing on election night?

I absolutely believe that the vote tallies were manipulated--not by the Russians but by Republicans who determined that their party would win no matter what. I believe that Republicans stole the election for Bush in Ohio in 2004, and I believe they did it again for Trump in the key swing states. We need serious changes in our voting systems to make them fair, to prevent voting manipulation by Republicans, and to stop voter suppression of minority voters. Without that, we will never have another honest election, and we can look forward to an endless stream of Republican presidents.

they did hack the DNC, Clinton, released emails and spread the false news sights and employed hundreds of bloggers, each with about 100 accounts, to harass Dems on facebook, twitter, ect... and to spread misinformation & were working with sniffles criminal organization.

the problematic counties, they ran them through the fucking machines again and never checked the machines.

Wisconsin is lost to overt corruption and should be ground zero for a Democratic Party uprising and renaissance. The majority of people here are progressives no matter what it looks like from outside.

Knock out the Koch brothers puppet, Walker, and the rest of the Walker shit show, and go from there.

I voted on an old (I know because they are the same machines used in my small town in SC PA (Shrewsbury, PA) for years now) and I do not have any idea what happened to my vote. It was just a flash on a screen. No Paper, not even the little lever on the old machines which were much more accurate because they were "dumb" analog machines. It is much easier to rig a software bug to rig the vote for thousands in a second than to add one a vote at a time on an analog machine.

If this is the one you used, at about 2/3 down its specs page begins the "Security Concerns" list of known, very serious defects in not only that specific model, but as well the entire Sequoia system's design and implementation.

https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/sequoia/avc-edge/

Last edited Wed Dec 28, 2016, 09:11 AM - Edit history (1)

I remember in '08, my PA county (Allegheny) had its machines certified by an outfit called Systest from CO. Right after they "certified" our machines, Systest was itself "de-certified" by the U.S. Elections Assistance Commission. A few days before the election.

It was all very droll.

I believe it was combo of; purging voter rolls, deluge of voter suppression laws, provisional ballots that weren't counted/accounted, Detroit's 87!!! broken machines on election day. The probability of machines not being programed correctly, human error and a whole lot of tom-foolery by domestic and foreign actors.

The list goes on...

No way did he win fairly. NO WAY!!!!!

A few i know chose not to vote in presidential race or voted third party.

i have to assume the intelligence agencies were watching closely for any sign that anything was coming in from out of the country, fersher.

even if they kept it quiet, to conceal their methods and all that, i really cant believe that would have let the vote counts stand. they would have discussed w hillary, and urged her to challenge it. the fact that she didnt tells me there is no intel to say they did.

the other party, tho? way to strange to believe the results.

What if Obama of Hillary had 'blown the whistle' with fairly strong circumstantial evidence? Our news media would have made life miserable for them. Plus there's the chance of social upheaval which they both probably thought made it not worth the risk.

there would be evidence. the cia would have had those voting machines in their hands, and torn apart. they were watching it all in real time, of that i had no doubt.

Specifically, the White House wanted congressional leaders to sign off on a bipartisan statement urging state and local officials to take federal help in protecting their voting-registration and balloting machines from Russian cyber-intrusions.

Definitely.

Her campaign was run professionally compared to Trumps. The last polls were showing a "Sustainable lead" for her for all the ups and down in the polls.
All that said, if votes can be changed with malware and then programmed to erase when finished, then yes i do believe it was possible that Russia hacked into our states election software.

I think he was going to wins thse with or without just looking at the margins but in states like Florida, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania it may have done it.

Trump won.

I live in Indiana and expected Hillary to lose the state by about 10 points (I wasn't worried because she would win all of the other rust states). I was watching the returns and was absolutely shocked out of my gourd when MSNBC reported that Rump won Indiana by about 60% to 30%. I knew then and there if he won Indiana by that much it was going to be a close one in Michigan and Wisconsin. For a year all I saw were TrumpPence signs in yards. I only saw ONE Clinton-Kaine sign (on a lake in Kosciusko County). My extended family ALL voted for Trump. I should have seen it coming. However, ever since the Ken Blackwell episode I've never trusted the election process. So wouldn't surprise me if 10 years from now someone squeals and we find out the truth.

That way we would believe it when he won!

It's all part of the conspiracy!!!!

Nm

Odd that those states exit polls do not match the results, and only those states don't match.

Ron Baiman's analysis points to that (or something equivalent)

Using the "raw data" from an exit poll is mindnumbingly stupid if you understand what the "raw data" is. Here's a hint, it's just the people they interviewed, not correct for the demographics of the polling place or those that stopped to be polled. You can't properly sample if you don't account for the actual universe of voters, not just those who happen to stop.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ten-reasons-why-you-should-ignore-exit/

Please stop holding up Baiman as anything other than a fraud trying to sell metaphorical snake oil.

Not just the Russians either. Between vote flipping and the Electoral College this con man is the most illegitimate person declared a winner.

Nov 8 will join Dec 7 as dates that will live in infamy.

An old saying is that it is always darkest before the dawn, I hope fervently that will be the case...but I'm not optimistic it will be.

I doubt that we will ever really find out though.

I don't know if we would know nor if those in charge of the voting (mostly Republicans at the top levels of State governments) would care. I think they wouldn't and would marginalize anyone even suggesting such a thing because they always put themselves and their ends above country and democracy.

Installing the modems, and such work would have been noticed.

There would have been too many people involved to keep it secret, especially coordinating with the idiot repukes.

The biggest thing is, is the russians were able to pull off such a feat, the last thing they do is make it look suspicious; they wouldn't have altered ALL of those states, they would have made it look closer than it was; not a squeaker or close enough to trigger recounts, but not a big win, either. A margin that wouldn't draw all the attention that there is right now.

Classic case of occams razor.

People are doing incredible contortions to refuse to admit the fact that she lost.

..while complaining about voter fraud Is right up their alley. They will do anything, cheat, lie and steal to win. We need to paper ballot and hand count our vote.

and more people dressed as Trump supporters showed up at Trump rallies than did at Romney rallies. Then, on Election Day, more people who look like Trump voters show up at the polls in order fake out the media and those public officials who are inclined to care. The conspiracy had to be extended to swing counties, so places that went big for Obama in 2008 and less big in 2012 barely went for Hillary this time around or swung to Trump. You had to do this even in deep blue states and the handful of swing states that Hillary managed to win.

It was all so exquisite.

for Hillary Clinton just to show that they had a sense of humor.

...as a rule, Republicans don't care as much about being "fair" and Trump supporters must be off the chart in that respect.

There is no possible way cheato won FL,WI,MI and PA fairly.

Lack of confidence that electronic voting is secure. We have to have that doubt removed or our elections will always be tainted.

How else could tRump win?

Though I won't absolutely rule it out (I also won't rule out the appearance of intergalactic aliens landing in north Texas tomorrow morning and stopping by my place for a chat and a cup of tea), I would require objective evidence (which means neither anecdotal nor circumstantial) specifically and directly pointing to a collective effort of machine-flipping to support any faith in that hypothesis.

This is the 3rd stolen election by the GOP and the American public needs to know the truth. Ideas?

Look up-thread. Clearly a lot of us don't.

for long. I'm sure the conspiracy folks deny that Wisconsin recount resulted in MORE votes going to Trump.

We lost, more ignorant white wingers voted than Democrats.

tens of thousands of votes swayed the electoral college. Not even hundreds of thousands. This did not have be a large scale operation...or a DEEP operations. A few thousand here and there did it.

We lost, it should not have even been close enough for conspiracy theories that make us sound like "birthers" or something.

and I see no reason to sound like a bunch of whiners just because GOPers do/would.

you have be in the presence of the machine to hack it.

you don't have a clue, because everything about the machines is "proprietary." please don't make statements which you have absolutely no way of knowing are true.

Last edited Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Don't discount the official repugs' hackers, and the far right's hackers, add them to Putin's military sig intel hackers.

We not only had Russian interference but the republican terrorists that controlled the state house. It is not how many votes you get, but who is counting the votes. There were thousands of votes not counted for Hillary.

Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot unless they've got hard evidence Russia did it, and it is aggravating to those of us who wish they had made a big deal about when Republicans used electronic motion machines to rig the vote in 2000 and 2004.

There were active and aggressive organized suppression in Florida and Wisconsin. I don't know the details on the missing votes in Michigan.

On top of the airtime Trump got while Hillary got only negative coverage (except for 4 specific events) including in the primaries. Bernie got no coverage at all even when he was pulling 10-20K BEFORE Trump even got it

Add in the Comey letter, "she's already won" which diminished turn out, and the fact that a woman being elected AFTER the black guy was too much for a lot of people to handle.

I'm only speaking for me, but OP I'll always believe that the ruskies and GOP were in on the FIX. Maybe not coordinated, but working together independently to get the results they wanted.

TOO many "coincidences" telling me that this last GE was rigged, voter suppressed/voter disenfranchised, cyber-hacked and Comeye'd for me to believe otherwise.

.........

tRump, how odd that they all benefit him over her dontcha think? Strip & Flip is only part of it.

tRump is not legitimate. Nobody can prove he is. He fought recounts & audits. The only way to prove he's legit is to have a forensic audit of the election. I double dog dare anyone to prove he's legit. And, btw, what American much less Pres-elect or State Gov official is against secure transparent verified elections? Why not prove legit? Why not remove shadow of doubt? Innocent people have nothing to hide.

It wasn't done to save money or time. It was to eliminate those pesky ballots and their paper trails. It was to deify a machine that they could control easily.

Everyone who really wants to hack the vote already is.