People with patriarchal privilege have never wanted to give it up.

most brick against the head moment. feminism has always been a small core group of society. feminism has always been hated by the majority. ya, ... women want the rights, but that is not all that feminism is and they do not take that next step.

for a snall group of society, feminism continues to accomplish thru voice.

i was led to believe the majority dems, the majority here are feminists. that feminism was welcome.

neither.

womens rights? sure. but not the rest of feminism. no different today, than 1920's

That if it is made illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender, or pay women less than men for the same job, or women get the right to vote, we have achieved equality. Which is a load of nonsense, as anyone with eyes can see with regards to race. We have to change our culture too, and that meets with a lot more resistance than even equal pay laws and non-discrimination laws, neither of which are without plenty of resistance as it is. Men have to change what they think is acceptable. There's no two bones about it, they have to change their part of our culture to make it unacceptable to objectify women, unacceptable to put being women/feminine as lesser ("you throw like a girl; don't cry, are you a girl?&quot they have to do their bit as progressives. Well, we see how well that goes over with a certain segment of DU; they have no intention of giving up their privileges and their pleasures, a very Republican mind-set if you ask me.

The covers of semi-nude models aren't bad because they are semi-nude or because they aren't athletes - they're bad because of what being saturated by those types of images do to our young women and men. It is bad because it harms equality on a cultural basis - because it harms girls and young women mentally, and because of what it teaches boys and young men. The guys on DU who defend these covers are like the 1% who do not want to pay more in taxes even if it would help society and wouldn't hurt them, and the women who support them are like blue-collar Republicans who refuse to see that what the 1%-ers are doing is hurting them, just on the off chance that they themselves may become a 1%-er.

that womens rights are an easy one. stepping into feminism though, takes one further and that is where the refusal is. and your post perfectly explains that part of my thinking. especially the 1%/blue collar repug. perfect.

you said it so well. thank you.

this is where people resist.

and you are right. laws are only the first step. without the culture change, you have the backstepping in the laws a couple decades later and we have to start all over again.

what about the women who defend those Magazine covers? are they like the 1% too.

This is not just a men thing.

Women do it, too.

The women who defend these covers are like blue-collar republicans, who defend the 1%'s right to exploit them on the off chance that they might one day join the elite. Plenty of people work against their own or against society's best interest - republicans do it all the time. The hallmark of progressives, however, is that they are willing to forgo some privileges if it means that people in general will have it better, just like feminists are asking grown-up men to forgo the pleasure of titillating pictures on covers of sports magazines because those pictures hurt the self-image of young women.

And the women who defend these grown-up men and their 'tastes' - well, misogyny isn't only something men exhibit, plenty of women internalize it too. However, just because women exhibit misogyny doesn't mean that they get a pass - we try to educate them too. We defend women's right to make choices, but that doesn't mean that all the choices women make are feminist, because while some of those choices may benefit individual women, they may hurt women in general. Women models may earn a lot of money and fame for starving themselves and posing for pictures, but their pictures hurt ordinary girls and women, and boys and young men too - warping their view of the worth of a normal woman, not to mention harming their chances of a. loving their own bodies in the case of women, and b. feeling satisfied in a normal relationship in the case of men. Just like fighting against HFCS in food - it tastes so good, but it hurts your body and makes natural food not taste right. Republicans defend the rights of agri-corps to put HFCS in everything, whilst many women defend men's right to publish objectifying pictures of young semi-nude models - even think they are liberated for doing so.

again, I thank you.

I like this post better than the original because you address the woman thing right up front.

GD is a very hostile place, especially for minorities, and as great a shame as it is to have to say this on a supposedly progressive board, but I just don't have the teaspoons to deal with the troglodytes there. I definitely don't mean any offense to you, nor am I offended myself at the suggestion, but after the last week - heck, after the last couple of months, I carefully judge whether I want to use any energy in GD. A couple of weeks ago, I woke up unable to chew because stress had caused a seizing up of the jaw muscles, and so I am trying to really de-stress. The misogyny in GD makes my stress levels skyrocket if I'm not careful. Sooo enraging, really, to read such filth on a 'Democratic' board.

what I have been witnessing in GD and in the Lounge makes me want to throw up. Thanks again though for rewording and putting the women front and center.

I am appalled at some of the women on DU and their attitude to what should be their sisters in solidarity.

They do internalize it, and they do get rewarded for their compliance. But when you tell them that, boy howdy do they get pissed. It really seems pluck a nerve.

that is what I wished I had said instead of using the analogy that I did.

I thought of the many women who seem to resist seeing some of these deeper cultural manifestations of patriarchy.

And it brought to mind this excerpt from On Strike Against God, in which Joanna Russ beautifully illustrates that moment when realization hits.

You know?

The worst part is every word is true

It's fucking heartbreaking really.