who supposedly are on our side." As you should.

I have a bit of time right now. Not busy.

...not only the right wing racists (which is bad enough and rather expected) but also from our progressive (supposedly) friends ??

When we have an issue with erasure, racism, neglect of our concerns, we are called divisive. It's happening right now. I recieved a few pm's myself about how wrong I was for feeling how I felt when I and many other black feminists took exception with something said. I discussed the word and how they were recieved. In return I got quite a few ad hominums and accused of division and giving Mra's ammunition, told I was the 'problem', accused of being 'enraged' (angry black women), deliberately misrepresenting the words, told not to see it that way, accused of tearing a great feminist down, fear of lossed for future support for 'my cause', told how unsupportive black men are of 'womens issues' even though they vote consistantly democratic, unlike white men or women, told how much that 'others' have done for 'me'. Basically I voiced a concern and realized how many problems there are. Black women are women. If intersectionality is not a part of feminism, then I guess I'm not a feminist. I thought I was but I ruined the entire movement by voicing the concerns of black women.

I thought I was but I ruined the entire movement by voicing the concerns of black women."

Well, as serious as this is, you made me laugh at that. My coworker is looking at me funny.

...when a group feels like an outcast in their own "House". Seems to me that we're all trying to get to the same destination but somehow we can't agree on the right highway. That last sentence, in itself, tells you a little bit of the ignorance I feel.
Being a decent, kind white male, I often want to "Get it" so I can understand and help in some way.....but I feel like I'm not equipped to understand. Maybe I just need to listen more and accept what I'm hearing without trying to analyze all of it at one time.

In a slightly humorous way, you probably express yourself to various groups and speak/tear your heart out until you realize you're speaking to very nice but rather confused Klingons!

Nope. I realize that I haven't gone through anything that black feminists before me have. Less issues I suspect. Those women were hella strong.

...to "Get up off their butts"...nothing will.
I'm not kidding when I say..I wish the hell I was as strong as they were/are.

I might still have time. I'm 33 so by the time I'm 50 I might be A wonder to behold.

Every single word.

told how unsupportive black men are of 'womens issues' even though they vote consistantly democratic unlike white men or women

I sincerely hope that no one on DU typed this foolishness? DU is probably one of the last places on the Internet where black men's contribution to the feminist movement should be discussed. I would be extremely uncomfortable discussing this here and I'm a black woman. I would be very surprised if that issue was brought up here, if it was by a black person.

Some of the things were absolutely perfect examples of shamelessness. I decided not to even bother trying to do any discussion with that person. Omg. I have something to show you in private.

How can we as a movement be expected to a) WIN, and b) thrive in partnership within allied spaces where there’s no fundamental respect for the lives of the people who are most marginalized in the United States? And how can progressives and allies shift the model for engaging Black women, women and youth of color, and LGBTQ people of color from charity to empathy?

As it should, bravenak.

I was just surprised at the reaction of some. I felt hurt that i was told what a bad feminist i was, not in those words of course. By saying I felt marginalized I got marginalized. I understand Womanism now and why it exists. I think it's best to discuss stuff, rather than be silent so as to not offend.

Sorry you got all those PM's you mentioned above, bravenak.

I don't think they realized. How it looked. And didn't know that others were doing the same thing as them resulting on a slight pile on. But I know what time it is now and can adjust.

It is most certainly not for the faint of heart. It is not easy to look closely at ourselves and confront our bigotries, and they are many, both conscious and not. Truly listening to someone tell you that you hold bigotry inside you is both painful and enlightening. But here's the way I look at it: as tough as it is to admit my prejudices, it is one hell of a lot harder for the person on the receiving end. I can't stomach the thought that my ignorance of myself would bring others harm. It's one thing to screw up on occasion, and another to shut yourself off from criticism or advice entirely, which is what many privileged progressives do.

There is a huge amount of resistance among the white liberal community to the fact that we are and always will be complicit to some extent in the oppression of PoC. Though I suppose it's to be expected, it's disheartening. I see the same thing when it comes to women's rights and liberal men. Above all, we need to listen and empathize. This is, I think, why there was such a large backlash against people who called out (and rightfully so) Patricia Arquette for her comments backstage. We refused to listen, and instead of attempting to understand our own reaction, we diminished and trivialized the issues presented.

Thanks for the article.

Hopefully this can help others here understand my pov and my intentions.

Amen, bravenak. We never accomplished anything with silence.

We are not progressive if we don't include poc and lgbt fully in our efforts. Riding coattails is not being fully invested either. Sometimes we simply don't take the time to find out how to be inclusive...your needs, interests, and priorities are not necessarily the same as mine, and I am simply too busy fixing my pie to figure out if your cake can bake in the same oven.

Nice OP. Thanks for posting.

I think it's more feminist to consider the concerns of all women, especially our most vulnerable groups. I especially worry about trans women right now with the way they are being targeted, even just for using the bathroom. Hard for them to find jobs let alonpe get wage equality. Homelessness is a very big problem, and I can only imagine (not really imagine, so much as see it in the alley behind my apartment) how living in the streets opens women up to rape and violence. I think we should magnify the concerns of the most vulnerable. It helps the rest of us by default to address their concerns.

Is this is a historical travesty, the biggest mistake the 2nd wave feminist movement ever had was to have middle class white women 'speak' for other colors, other cultures. I've read fascinating feminist philosophy on this, read great analysis about this, this egregious error, one that should be a past mistake we are learning from.

And look at us now. The same shit happening. I could cry.

Absolutely white feminists like myself need to dialougue with feminists of color, we need to listen and we need to hear when we listen.

I get it now. Can't say I'm happy or not dissappointed, but shit. We have feminists melting down, talking about race wars? Deleting twitter accounts. It's a trip. I wonder what the great schism of 2012 was like. I got messages about that too. I had no idea that there was a split in 2012. The 70's must have been very interesting. This is why I don't twitter. If I did, omg, the hate tweets! I see now why my sister laughs at feminism. Even though she see's herself as one, it's not 'Feminism'. At least I'm back to being amused.

I love feminism, it's a huge part of who I am-- and then to read shit that defends white privilege from a feminst POV drives me insane. How can we say we are for 'equal rights' when we're leaving out/ignoring/justifying that crap?

One of the essays I read in the feminist philosophy journal "Hypatia" was by a Native American women who didn't self identify as feminist. Her reasoning was sound-- her entire culture had been altered, parts of it eradicated, and while she understood and respected feminist ideology, she didn't see it as a productive philosophy for her people. It was a powerful piece and I never forgot it. (I still have it somewhere-- I should re-read it)

I gelt like it was 'shut up about your 'black' stuff, talking about race hurts the 'movement'. Like OK. I still don't quite get it all the way yet. But I do plan on asking my mother about the seventies. I bet she can tell me plenty. I have decided to call it 'The Matriarchy'. Like the patriarchy, just for women. The name is still is in the air just in case I figure out a better description.

I'd love to hear what your Mom has to say

She is too funny. The things she says about Black Scientology crack me up. Apparently it's strange.

I await your moms words of wisdom.

She took a nap!! People have been celebrating the end of prohibition too much.

so remember it well, but with deep feelings of regret for many aspects. I can't speak for everyone but from my perspective we were in such a hurry, and you folks of color brought so much baggage to the table that it would have taken us forever if we had to fit all that s&*@ into our agenda. I remember the 70s feminism as largely a white middle class movement where poor women and women of color could ride our coattails, or be lifted up in the wake of our boats or some such nonsense, just don't hold us back, and be grateful for the crumbs you get. At any rate, it wasn't inclusive in any sense of the word. I regret very deeply that I didn't have the opportunity to share that time of life with you younger women of today. You are not silent, you would not have let us call ourselves feminists if we failed to talk to and listen to over half of our sisters.

I don't know what to call it..."The Matriarchy" might work well, but I will tell you it was condescending as hell, and I find that terribly embarrassing today.

I love you bravenak. You bring us some interesting conversations.

Thank you for seeing my point. I did talk to my mother and she pretty much confirmed what you were saying. Plus she was dealing with DV at home and decided to focus on saving herself instead. And I think your right about us not letting it go down like that. I was taught to be a squeaky wheel.

Is why I love you.

It's late. I have to run.

are you talking about open hostility in group situations directed at black women, or more subtle but dismissive tactics, or all of the above?

I belong to a peace group in the Chicago area. My own experience in the group, and in groups in general, is that many women do not speak out as much as men. In our peace group we take turns moderating our weekly meetings to avoid a formal hierarchy but even so some women speak less.

Do you feel this hesitance is a social construct, a reflection of inequality that is built in? Or more?

Also think sheshe's post about hearing when listening is on the mark. Happens here (DU) as well.

The hesitancy to speak out from black women is often forced.

for fear of angering people who should be on your side politically and socially?

strong medicine. I am impressed. Keep on writing, please.

I like that one. America America too. I think I published that one on Timbooktu. Thanks.

The black women I know and hang out with never discuss it and I don't know how to bring up the subject.

There are quite a few placed where black feminists get together and discuss this stuff. I don't know about bringing it up at work, kinda hard to know what to say. I'm weird so I usually just ask for opinions. I tell people I was discussing an issue and show them an article or two, maybe send a few links. Not everybody is even interested, but usually I get a bite. Hell, I poll people in the line at the grocery store and argue politics with the cable customer service while paying my bill. Good way to make friends.
If you want a few links on the subject let me know. I've been reading alot.

why don't you post us some links ... those of us interested enough can check them out ... maybe I can get some ideas on how to raise awareness at work.

So much a complicated dynamic going on at work and so many top heads leaving right now.

Interesting but, scary time right now at my place of employment.

I have often wished you could be a fly on the wall there, bravenak and then tell me what you think about what you observed.

http://www.forharriet.com/2014/06/on-invisibility-of-black-women-and-girls.html#axzz3SyRIo3VG
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2014/01/28/trouble-white-women-white-feminism/

I also make sure to read RH Reality check website, Imani Gandy is pretty awesome. There is some stuff going on right now with the issue.

If we ever get invisibility cloaks I'm love to go to your meetings. I used to do the meeting minutes... I was glad to pretend to be writing my ass off while watching the drama unfold. I noticed that I was the only black women at the whole company while listening to the 'big guys'. Yes. They called themselves stupid shit like boy's club. The actually did bo girls allowed cigar and scotch meetings. Bought us 'wine' so we could 'handle' drinking on the job. We did not other with no stupid wine. We still had to work while they did the boy's club. I found the whole thing old fashioned and facinating at the same time. Shocking what they said about things whenever they forgot I was there. Which always happened even though they made me come to the stupid meetings. I saw executives call the accountants all types of names. They were women so... Perfectly okay.

post more often in here with articles that you think can enlighten us to the experience of being a black woman in today's society.

Help us stay aware and informed so that we can pass it along.

the word intersectionality and how many intersections are there is intriguing.

I wonder if the rural.urban difference and how those two different mindsets is discussed discussed anywhere.

How being black and raised country vs. being black and raised urban/projects/big cities is discussed anywhere.

In alot of ways rural is better and worse. Out in the sticks you can be gotten alone. In the city there are more folks packed together. There are just so many differences, I think it could take books and books to unpack all those boxes. Rural black folks think we city boack folks are rude, have no manners, need jesus, and are too hollywood. City folks treat rural black like they're stupid I find. The lack of street smarts. Things are changing now, everybody is way more connected so the differences are much less than when I was growing up. They have facebook. We had dial up.

I'll try to post more aritcles in the future. I probably should have been doing it all along. I end up being reacitive instead of proactive.

Btw. The dress is blue if anyone asks you. I swear people are saying white but refuse to look properly.
Blue.

One picture I saw of it on FB changed colors right before my eyes and that is when I understood. As I scrolled down the picture of the dress appeared white/golden brown lace and then as I stopped on the picture and my screen adjusted it quickly went periwinkle/green and then to lavender/brown until it finished up at a royal blue/black lace. It was cool to watch. On my iphone it looked more periwinkle/brown. My laptop pictures were always blue/black except for that one incident which, was very weird to watch happen but, kinda cool, too.

about the intersectionality ... I think I have it backwards. Seems to me that where we all intersect is where we join together in common and fight for what is good for all of us. It should be a coming together not a division.

right?

I see intersectionality more as layers. Like how women face sexism, but lesbians face sexism+homophobia, a black lesbian faces a+b+c. How people cannot be separated from what they are. I think the joining happens by understanding that each person is different and there can be no generic feminism, or whatever ideology.
Its like how some people will say 'a rising tide lifts all boats', but forget that some people have anchors strapped to their backs and need us to pull them in out of the water and help cut the rope.

I have had several stupid discussions about that dress. People are getting into conspiracy theory territory.

was the one Monica wore

and I like that term ... layering as opposed to intersectionality. I think that was bad terminology from the get go.

also I like how you explain the boat/rising tide ... that is very good.

And omg, all I could think about was Monica. Like I wonder if she was thinking 'oh, good! Now they have a new blue dress to think about for the next 20 years.'

layering ... and I like the bases analogy. you know that one, right?

1st base = white
2nd base = white man
3rd base = rich white man

and we are all just trying to get home some of us were just born on third base so ... those privileged few ... don't have to round all the bases.

It just seems too basic for me. Did you see the video number 23 posted? So funny and informative.
You should check it out before you go to bed if you're still up.

and yes, I have had other women say there were "scared" of me ... because I am tall and assertive and am not afraid to speak my mind.
I do understand about how FDR made concessions and it was a point where black women fell behind in wage earning. I understand that black women (men, too) rightly feel that whites have made it on the backs of blacks physical labor. This was one reason I thought that art piece (chair, do you remember it?) was a powerful statement/analogy metaphor for what has happened historically with the white woman/black woman dynamic. It was crude and offensive but, it had truth to it as an art piece.

I have to say, bravenak, I did not understand what make some black women mad about PA's comments but, I do respect your right to your anger and your feelings. I only hope that from one human to another human that we can all respect the fact that PA is also human and did not intentionally mean to offend any woman black or white. I hope that those black women who were offended can accept her apology in the spirit it was intended and let us ALL WOMEN move forward to attain the equal wages deserve. BTW, not one black (or white, for that matter) mentioned PA at work this week. Not that I heard, anyway -- we all take breaks at different times so, I could have missed it.

None of us is angry at her for making a mistake. I think most got upset when we said something about her words and got accused of tearing her down and being mean and jealous and ungrateful. It was more of how her supporters responded by treating us like ingrates instead of listening.
If you see, Patricia tweeted out facts about how much black women make and seemd apologetic to me. Nice person. We think she is cool. But if you read most of the articles written by black feminists, you'd see that we ctually didn't do a teardown. It provided an opportunity to get a conversation going.

I would never talk about this at work, I always get scared that I'll find out that somebody I really like is a virulent conservative. I've met lots of black conservatives. They don't believe in the wage gap at all between men and women. Will admit to a wage gap for minorities. But they blame that on feminism and liberals.

I hope we can all get together as liberals and start working on poor conservative women. I see them as hostages.

and yes, it is the non-feminist, no matter the color, we need to reach, educate, enlighten, make aware.

One thing I have learned ... EDUCATION is KEY.

Ignorance holds us all back.