If a man said that to me I don't think I could keep myself from saying "Oh for fuck's sake" and calling it out as ridiculous. I was also brought up to be highly respectful of other's beliefs but that ends now. I don't give a shit about your beliefs when it infringes on me.

Honey, ain't nobody got time for that.

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I appreciate your view, although I don't think I could bring myself to do it over something I consider insignificant like a handshake. I have changed seats on airlines to accommodate families who didn't have seats together, but that has nothing to do with gender. I think I am past the point where I would move to accommodate a man who doesn't want to sit next to a woman for any reason.

letting it be know, i do not respect his pov in a less the confrontational manner.

In consent culture, he absolutely is allowed not to shake hands with anyone he doesn't want to shake hands with. Many cultures don't touch when they greet each other. As long as he does something (a nod, a bow, a smile) to acknowledge the person he is greeting, I say ok. He cannot refuse to be served by a woman either, when the services don't involve nudity (doctors) or food.

As for discriminating, that's another matter. Some positions are inherently discriminating - Catholic priests, for example. Others should not be. Jobs driving buses around ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods, for example. They get licences from the city, so no gender discrimination there. In public transport, like a plane, if you want to make sure you don't sit next to someone specific, buy the tickets of the relevant seats. Don't ask women to move to accomodate you, pay up, or don't travel.

I don't have a problem with someone not shaking hands; I can extend courtesy that far. The airline seat issue is different. I don't think a woman should be asked to move to accommodate a man's religious beliefs. He can either make arrangements with the airline before hand, or not travel if he can't bring himself to sit next to a woman.

The Orthodox Jewish man refuses to sit next to a woman? Okay, fine -- but why then should she be the one to move? He's the one making trouble.

Wonder, too, what would happen if she refused to shake hands because she doesn't touch Orthodox Jews. Funny how that works out, isn't it?

-- Mal

"Wonder, too, what would happen if she refused to shake hands because she doesn't touch Orthodox Jews. Funny how that works out, isn't it? "

i can hear the wailing now!

Part of it is inherent in religion itself, part of it, and as I've often pointed out there is there is not single major (and most minor as far as I can tell) religion that doesn't have something crappy/discriminatory to say about women in its religious texts--- and part of it, well it reminds me of the ancient Egyptians and their Gods. As time went on they had an unwieldy pantheon, because they never removed old Gods. I think the stricter forms that endorse misogyny are like that--they kept too many stupid rules. Lost tract, misinterpreted, allowed patriartical forms to influence religious ones.

As religion evolved, often through war and conquest, women were pawns and property as they took social status from men. There are plenty of indications this was not always so, but that hardly matters today.

So I draw the line at the point of oppression. Like Mal points out, If a particular religion proscribes touching or being around women outside of its churches, women aren't the ones who should move, or absent themselves from any given situation. That is not being disrespectful it is being fully human.

On another note, If women are wearing the hajib, it's often as religious and cultural choice. Muslim men are supposed to be modest as well. The problem is one of choice. It's horrifying not to have choice in religious matters, I understand and respect, spiritual discipline. But spiritual baggage--not so much.

I am a person of faith, but I would not attend a church that discriminated against women, hated gays, or excluded people of color. However, if I am a guest in another church, say attending a funeral or wedding, I make every effort to be respectful. I do avoid certain situations because I know that I cannot sit quietly and listen to total bs. I have Catholic friends, but I long ago gave up attending any services because I am not going to tolerate a sermon telling me women need to have lots of babies, stay home to raise them, and go to hell if they have an abortion.

The bigoted follower of a religion who applies its tabus to others is making a choice. Yeah, he may be subject to any amount of brainwashing, legal restrictions, or whatever to enforce that choice, but ultimately his decision is a choice. The woman (or other discriminated-against party) is exercising no choice: she is what she is, bigod. It seems to me to be fundamentally absurd that something which is (logically) contingent should take precedence over something that is (logically) necessity. Not only absurd, but infuriating.

-- Mal

Now I'm prepared. If a man refuses to shake my hand because I'm a woman, I will state, "That's okay, because I don't shake misogynist's hands."

As for the "I can't sit next to a woman" bullshit. Grow the fuck up & get in the 21st century you bigoted relics or go join a monastery.

I would hope the women in that religion leave it in droves. Must suck to be married to one of those men or to be a female person of that religion. Though it might not be so easy due to economic factors.

Orthodox Jews are not alone in this peculiarity, and I agree it is pretty goddam odd, to say nothing of stupid.

-- Mal