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flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 10:57 AM Mar 2018

A well regulated militia, the gunner's myth exploded in two parts.

The argument we hear from the 2nd Amendment absolutists is that the well regulated militia clause refers to every armed male being the militia and well regulated, in the language of the day, means 'functioning properly'. Dana Loesch repeated this falsehood on national television in the town hall discussion with the MSD kids.

They are wrong and willfully lying. The Federalist Papers, written in the language of the day to explain the newly written Constitution to the population at large, clearly describes a State organized militia. Hamilton in paper #29 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp and Madison in paper #46 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed46.asp both describe a militia organized by the various states with the Officers appointed and Commissioned by the states. Taken together they envisioned each state having a small cadre of full time professional soldiers to act as a corps to train and organize the citizenry when conscripted into service in defense of the state or nation as needed. They didn't want a national standing army but allowed for the Federal government to have a small militia of it's own provided by the states and made up of Officers appointed and outfitted by the states not to exceed one fifth the size of the state militias combined.

This concept of states organizing militias and contributing to the federal militia is echoed in Article I section 8 https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html which says clearly that, 'The Congress shall have Power To . . . To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; . . .'

Has anyone seen an officer appointed or commissioned by a state taking part in any 'militia'?

The second part of their duplicity is the selective use of Original Intent and the Living Document standard. While they (wrongly) use the language of the day argument (Original Intent) to describe the Militia as every good ole boy with a gun they then use the Living Document concept to include the AR15 and other modern weapons as 'arms'. They can't have it both ways. If they rely on the 'language of the day' to define militia they must also accept that arms, in 'the language of the day' means muzzle loading muskets and pistols.

As Justice Warren Burger said.



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A well regulated militia, the gunner's myth exploded in two parts. (Original Post) flamin lib Mar 2018 OP
Now you've done it. billh58 Mar 2018 #1
yet ironically the gunners complain of activist courts HopeAgain Mar 2018 #2
But Timewas Mar 2018 #3
The phrasing is 'right of the people'. flamin lib Mar 2018 #5
I agree Timewas Mar 2018 #14
Also the 18th century militias were B. Y. O. B. Marcuse Mar 2018 #9
yes Timewas Mar 2018 #15
Because the militia of the day was made up of individual citizens louis c Mar 2018 #11
Time for Review of the 2nd Amendment and make Clarity Civic Justice Mar 2018 #4
Thank you! Duppers Mar 2018 #13
U.S. Constitution - Article 2 Section 2 SHRED Mar 2018 #6
One thing I am quite sure of is that the current prevailing interpretation is perverted bullshit world wide wally Mar 2018 #7
When a revolutionary government also adds in.. yallerdawg Mar 2018 #8
yeeppp....comin for your guns...everything they do and say is a lie mentalslavery Mar 2018 #10
Permanently bookmarking this Beauty. byronius Mar 2018 #12
On the frontier in the late 1700s nitpicker Mar 2018 #16
I have tried to tell people jarhead69 Jun 2018 #17

billh58

(6,641 posts)
1. Now you've done it.
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 11:04 AM
Mar 2018

The local representatives of the right-wing gun lobby will post tons of word salad defining the "true" meaning of the Federalist Papers, and the precise definition of the word (and concept) "militia." They seem to be able to find hidden meanings in all of the Founders' thoughts and writings -- much like the "hidden code" in the Bible.

Maybe the real meaning of the Second Amendment is hidden in the Bible, or written in Tongues...?

Timewas

(2,294 posts)
3. But
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 11:16 AM
Mar 2018

If it is all aimed at a "well regulated militia" being the equivalent to today's national guard why the reference to "the peoples right"??

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
5. The phrasing is 'right of the people'.
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 11:43 AM
Mar 2018

That could be interpreted as a group right as in "all men are created equal" being everybody instead of individual men. It could be interpreted as an individual right which is what the absolutists choose to do.

Looking elsewhere in the Constitution I see words capitalized when when referring to individuals as in Article 1 section 2, "No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years".

Many scholars think that the wording of the Constitution is deliberately vague and there were no minutes kept during the actual discussions and debates during the writing of the document, either to leave room for interpretation or to assuage both sides of a given issue by not absolutely defining a position.

An argument can be made either way, but the contemporary evidence i.e. the Federalist papers indicates a communal right of the state's population at large.

Timewas

(2,294 posts)
14. I agree
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 03:56 PM
Mar 2018

It is somewhat vague and I am not arguing that anyone should have military style/type weapons... But they could easily have left that part out too...The thinking was quite different then than it is now there is no doubt nor any real surprise in that.

Personally I am for good reasonable gun control, there is no reason to need anything like an AR-15.but there are a lot of things that have no really compelling reasons to own other than want...And I believe that what people want can be a reason to allow it as long as it does not infringe nor threaten others.. The need for stricter gun control deeper background checks and waiting periods lengthy enough to carry out those checks is beyond doubt ...Ways to stop mentally disturbed people from obtaining any type of gun needs to be seriously addressed much sooner rather than later.... Also prosecute any and all that attempt to bypass background checks.

There is only one entity capable of undertaking that task and since it is a congress sponsored by the NRA it won't happen until we vote them out. Some states are doing it on their own...

Timewas

(2,294 posts)
15. yes
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 03:58 PM
Mar 2018

It was quite different then ...but owning a weapon was at that time almost a life and death necessity...Needed to protect from wild animals and some wild people... But mainly was needed just to eat in many cases...

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
11. Because the militia of the day was made up of individual citizens
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 01:14 PM
Mar 2018

Put aside the meaning of militia for a minute. The words "well regulated" are displayed prominently in the second amendment.

No one wants to take the right of individuals to process a fire arm. But it should be regulated just like an automobile or a truck. Registration, bills of sale, background checks and the banning of military weapons.

Sure makes sense to me.

 

SHRED

(28,136 posts)
6. U.S. Constitution - Article 2 Section 2
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 12:50 PM
Mar 2018

"Militias" are not defined in the Constitution as just anybody who wants to form a group. In fact the President, and therefore the Federal Government, is the "Commander in Chief" of state militias.

Perhaps it would be helpful if judges ruling on the 2nd Amendment, and those claiming to be in militias actually read the entire Constitution?

U.S. Constitution - Article 2 Section 2
 
"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States when called into the actual Service of the United States..."

The modern day state "militia" of course being the National Guard.


“The 2nd Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever.” - Conservative Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
8. When a revolutionary government also adds in..
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 12:56 PM
Mar 2018

"necessary to the security of a Free State" it's quite clear this is Militia guidance.

Followed by the most important of all 3rd Amendment for context!

 

mentalslavery

(463 posts)
10. yeeppp....comin for your guns...everything they do and say is a lie
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 01:06 PM
Mar 2018

I need it to protect my family

I need it to hunt

and on....and on....and on....

nitpicker

(7,153 posts)
16. On the frontier in the late 1700s
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:53 AM
Mar 2018

Some of the local taxes, and if I recall correctly some of the census data as well, were organized under "Capt. Penny's company", "Capt. Davis's company", etc.

At least two of my ancestors fought against "Indians" right after the Revolutionary War.

jarhead69

(8 posts)
17. I have tried to tell people
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 09:26 PM
Jun 2018

A militia is not a mess of fat idiots running around the woods pretending to be John Wayne or Chuck Norris.

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